Australian Politics Forum - Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?

MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #210 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 6:59am

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 6:02am:

The other question go be answered: when JC is mentioned we are talking of an ordinary half-crazy preacher, right, not the “son of god.”

Well, Jesus the man as opposed to the Christ, or Jesus (Joshua/ Yeshua/ Issa etc) of faith.

The latter is whoever the culture that acknowledges him imagines he is.

I saw a mosaic of Christ images from every culture in the world and, as you'd expect, his image depends on how the respective culture imagines him to be.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #211 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:25am

Yes, In saw plenty of statues and paintings of “Christ on the Cross” and they made him look like a pansy, a very whiteskinned/brown haired pansy!

I am talking about a normal, partly crazy preacher. Since there is no evidence God/gods/demigods exist I obviously do not believe any “Son of God” nonsense.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49242 Gender:	Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist? Reply #212 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:28am Having said that, there is no record of any such order by PP. When constructing the cult why would they not use crucifixion, common enough around 30BC or so.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #213 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:39am

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:25am:

I am talking about a normal, partly crazy preacher. Since there is no evidence God/gods/demigods exist I obviously do not believe any “Son of God” nonsense.

The appellation 'son of God' in the Hebrew sense (and referred to in the Old Testament) was used to refer to someone who was favoured by god, not the literal son of a god - that was a leap that non-Jews made and whose respective cultures accepted that humans could be deified or be born of a god.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #214 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:51am

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:28am:

Having said that, there is no record of any such order by PP.

When constructing the cult why would they not use crucifixion, common enough around 30BC or so.

If it was just a myth, then Paul's unequivocal acceptance that Jesus existed and died by crucifixion needs to be explained given he had access to first-hand eyewitness accounts and given he arrives on the scene only a few years after the crucifixion and works with the Sanhedrin to suppress and extinguish the Jerusalem community.

Post-conversion, Paul then sets to work on converting and contorting the crucifixion, not as a catastrophe, but as the point of Jesus' mission - he makes the claim that Jesus was the last sacrificial 'lamb' who died to take away the sins of the world by his sacrifice - no further temple sacrifices were necessary as Jesus, by his crucifixion, had paid the debt to Yahweh for all time.

Such were the metaphysical leaps that Paul made to reconcile the outcome of Jesus' being a failed messiah (by Jewish standards) with Paul's notion of Jesus being a redeemer of the world.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #215 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:27am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:39am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:25am:

I am talking about a normal, partly crazy preacher. Since there is no evidence God/gods/demigods exist I obviously do not believe any “Son of God” nonsense.

The appellation 'son of God' in the Hebrew sense (and referred to in the Old Testament) was used to refer to someone who was favoured by god, not the literal son of a god - that was a leap that non-Jews made and whose respective cultures accepted that humans could be deified or be born of a god.

Oh, I see. Did not know that.

Still don’t believe in it since I do not believe God exists.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #216 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:28am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:51am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:28am:

Having said that, there is no record of any such order by PP.

When constructing the cult why would they not use crucifixion, common enough around 30BC or so.

If it was just a myth, then Paul's unequivocal acceptance that Jesus existed and died by crucifixion needs to be explained given he had access to first-hand eyewitness accounts and given he arrives on the scene only a few years after the crucifixion and works with the Sanhedrin to suppress and extinguish the Jerusalem community.

Post-conversion, Paul then sets to work on converting and contorting the crucifixion, not as a catastrophe, but as the point of Jesus' mission - he makes the claim that Jesus was the last sacrificial 'lamb' who died to take away the sins of the world by his sacrifice - no further temple sacrifices were necessary as Jesus, by his crucifixion, had paid the debt to Yahweh for all time.

Such were the metaphysical leaps that Paul made to reconcile the outcome of Jesus' being a failed messiah (by Jewish standards) with Paul's notion of Jesus being a redeemer of the world.

Just building the cult.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #217 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:40am

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:28am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:51am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:28am:

Having said that, there is no record of any such order by PP.

When constructing the cult why would they not use crucifixion, common enough around 30BC or so.

If it was just a myth, then Paul's unequivocal acceptance that Jesus existed and died by crucifixion needs to be explained given he had access to first-hand eyewitness accounts and given he arrives on the scene only a few years after the crucifixion and works with the Sanhedrin to suppress and extinguish the Jerusalem community.

Post-conversion, Paul then sets to work on converting and contorting the crucifixion, not as a catastrophe, but as the point of Jesus' mission - he makes the claim that Jesus was the last sacrificial 'lamb' who died to take away the sins of the world by his sacrifice - no further temple sacrifices were necessary as Jesus, by his crucifixion, had paid the debt to Yahweh for all time.

Such were the metaphysical leaps that Paul made to reconcile the outcome of Jesus' being a failed messiah (by Jewish standards) with Paul's notion of Jesus being a redeemer of the world.

Just building the cult.

Using modern terminology, Paul was building a cult - the Christ cult.

That Paul's notion of Jesus was just outright heresy in the Jewish mind was made clear by the showdown Paul had with James, the brother of Jesus.

James confronts Paul about what he'd been teaching non-Jews about Jesus as the Christ and Paul, uncharacteristically, defers to James during the meeting.

Of course, Paul had no intention of undoing his Christ theology as by then Paul's followers were already referred to as Christians, (or the tribe of Christians as Josephus refers to them).

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49242 Gender:	Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist? Reply #218 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:44am That is as I understood it but I haven’t read the bible since some time in the 1960s so details are vague.
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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49242 Gender:	Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist? Reply #219 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:47am Vaguely remember sermons based on “the Epistle of St Paul to the Galatiens” or something like that.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #220 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:18am

That Paul's theology survives while the beliefs of James and those of the Jerusalem Community do not is an accident of history.

After the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by the Romans in AD70, (a few years before which both Paul and Peter had been executed and James had been murdered) any adherence to or espousal of Jewish religious thought was punishable by death.

However, by the late 1st century with Roman rule across the empire restabilised, and after the anti-Jewish hysteria had somewhat ebbed, typical human curiosity took hold about what this cult of Christianity had been all about and, lo and behold, the teachings of early Christianity's most prolific writer - Paul and other Pauline Christians such as Luke - dominated the literature available. The teachings of the Jerusalem community had largely been lost not least because most of its followers were illiterate and had used the oral tradition to transmit its message.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 51464 Gender:	Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist? Reply #221 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:23am Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:47am: Vaguely remember That's you in a nutshell, nutty juvenile. Vague, half-remembering, foggy.
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Jovial Monk

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #222 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:32am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:18am:

That Paul's theology survives while the beliefs of James and those of the Jerusalem Community do not is an accident of history.

After the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by the Romans in AD70, (a few years before which both Paul and Peter had been executed and James had been murdered) any adherence to or espousal of Jewish religious thought was punishable by death.

However, by the late 1st century with Roman rule across the empire restabilised, and after the anti-Jewish hysteria had somewhat ebbed, typical human curiosity took hold about what this cult of Christianity had been all about and, lo and behold, the teachings of early Christianity's most prolific writer - Paul and other Pauline Christians such as Luke - dominated the literature available. The teachings of the Jerusalem community had largely been lost not least because most of its followers were illiterate and had used the oral tradition to transmit its message.

Yeah, exodus and destruction of the temple changed things in the “Holy land.”

Now they are trying to make it Jewish again.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist?
Reply #223 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:41am

With the resurgence of interest in the cult of Christianity in the late 1st century, came the inevitable demand for more information about the life of its central figure.

Almost nothing had been written about the life of Jesus during his lifetime and little detail was recorded after his death. With the exception of the (lost) hypothesised Q gospel and the gospel of Mark, no single, coherent account existed of the circumstances of Jesus' birth or early life, so the race was on to create a single cohesive Jesus narrative.

There are competing gospels, (other than the now well-known four), that made claims about Jesus' life and other key figures of the Jerusalem community, but none were thorough or necessarily in agreement with each other.

It's clear that Jesus was an elusive figure to 1st-century peoples, not because he didn't exist, but more likely because his ministry was not important or momentous enough during his lifetime to warrant literate people documenting it.

That and the fact that all Jewish writings were largely destroyed by the avenging Romans after they'd destroyed the temple, razed Jerusalem and expelled the Jews from what they called Palestine.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49242 Gender:	Re: Does “Christian Atheism” Really Exist? Reply #224 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 10:15am Quote: It's clear that Jesus was an elusive figure to 1st-century peoples, not because he didn't exist, but more likely because his ministry was not important or momentous enough during his lifetime to warrant literate people documenting it. Plenty of half mad preachers wandering Palestine.
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