Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1815 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:39am

UnSubRocky wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 11:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 12:18pm:

Like I said, the voice is a diversion from facing the causes of the egregious gap stats.
The Yes case is hoping the voice will close the gap, the No case wants to know how the voice will close the gap first, before changing the Constitution. .
...your conservative narratives re "trying' are nonsense, in a dysfunctonal NAIRU economic system

The causes of the egregious gap statistics of indigenous to non-indigenous:

*Not trying to secure work
*Not studying at school well enough to develop a good work ethic.
*Trying to show indigenous friends and families that you are not a sell-out to the Western way of life and still hold onto ancient beliefs and customs.
*Using your ancient beliefs and customs as a way to excuse yourself for why you have committed a crime. And then being allowed cultural sensitivity by the magistrate to get out of a conviction. In this case, you lack the initiative to change any antisocial behaviour.
*Getting paid more for doing less because you are an indigenous person. But continuing the cycle of impoverishment because there is no incentive to be upwardly socially and economically mobile.
*Being the child of a person with a poor work ethic. Learning that other people will pay your way through life.

And in an economic system where we may well need unemployed people to exist to prevent overinflation, there is still the issue of living above the poverty level that ALL Australians can achieve, even if they are not full-time employees.

The only real solution is to put 'em all in Aborassic Park and let them earn a living as fauna.... viewed through the walls of the indestructible plastiglass tunnels that the electric powered open carriage air conditioned trains run in... for the tourists..... sort of the Westworld of Australia.... without the chance of the robots getting out of control....

Hmm - at least in PiratePlanet the pirates don't get out and eat the people...... hmmmm .....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Australian Legend Posts: 21740 Rockhampton, Q Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #1816 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:58am I think Nazis had a similar idea of corralling people to places that they did not want to be, too, Grappler. It did not work out for either, by the end of the war.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1817 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 11:24am

Gnads wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 6:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 1:40pm:

Gnads wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 1:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 30^th, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.

I've heard a cockatoo with a less repetitive & greater range of vocabulary than you.

And that same cockatoo is probably more intelligent than you, since you are driven by anachronistic, blind, self-serving survival instincts which - as the mastery of technology by humans increases - are likely to result in the desruction of life in the age of MAD, rather than preservation of life (ie, individual organisms, you and me) on the planet as originally intended in the tooth and claw natural world.

Put a sock in it you driveling twerp.

Er ...I think you just proved my estimation of your IQ is close to the mark.

His caveman self-survival instincts alive and well....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1818 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 11:44am

UnSubRocky wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 11:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 12:18pm:

Like I said, the voice is a diversion from facing the causes of the egregious gap stats.
The Yes case is hoping the voice will close the gap, the No case wants to know how the voice will close the gap first, before changing the Constitution. .
...your conservative narratives re "trying' are nonsense, in a dysfunctonal NAIRU economic system

The causes of the egregious gap statistics of indigenous to non-indigenous:

*Not trying to secure work

because a culture of welfare dependency aka "protection" was already imposed on the community.

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*Not studying at school well enough to develop a good work ethic.

See above.

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*Trying to show indigenous friends and families that you are not a sell-out to the Western way of life and still hold onto ancient beliefs and customs.

Probably a factor, certainly among culture warriors.

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*Using your ancient beliefs and customs as a way to excuse yourself for why you have committed a crime. And then being allowed cultural sensitivity by the magistrate to get out of a conviction.

Simplistic; people sitting around in public parks drinking themselves to death for historical/cultural/economic reasons have no agency, and likewise the crime they commit has sociological causes.

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*Getting paid more for doing less ....

Already addressed; stop beinq a blind 'help-yourself' conservative ideologue.

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*Being the child of a person with a poor work ethic.

And whose fault is that?

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Learning that other people will pay your way through life.

And whose fault is that?

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And in an economic system where we may well need unemployed people to exist to prevent overinflation, there is still the issue of living above the poverty level that ALL Australians can achieve, even if they are not full-time employees.

Last I heard, there were about half a million job vacancies in Oz, and over a million unemployed - which leaves half a million on the below-povery-level dole, even if sufficient training enabled the half-million job vacancies to be filled.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 10834 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #1819 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 11:52am UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:58am: I think Nazis had a similar idea of corralling people to places that they did not want to be, too, Grappler. It did not work out for either, by the end of the war. Good to see you 'reading the riot act' to Graps, who really is quite delusional at times.
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UnSubRocky

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1820 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 3:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 11:44am:

because a culture of welfare dependency aka "protection" was already imposed on the community.
people sitting around in public parks drinking themselves to death for historical/cultural/economic reasons have no agency, and likewise the crime they commit has sociological causes.
stop beinq a blind 'help-yourself' conservative ideologue.
And whose fault is that?
Last I heard, there were about half a million job vacancies in Oz, and over a million unemployed - which leaves half a million on the below-povery-level dole, even if sufficient training enabled the half-million job vacancies to be filled.

I might as well write a quoting-free post. But, best to highlight your stupidity.

You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't help indigenous Australians. If you do help indigenous Australians, some of them seem to think that it is not enough. Or it might be seen as too much. If you don't help them, you are accused of ignoring their welfare.

I have never heard of sitting around drinking in parks being something that is part of indigenous culture. Maybe it is part of some of their culture for sitting around parks. But, drinking is not part of indigenous Australian culture. The crime is part of indigenous patriarchy, where respect for elder men is paramount, no matter how well that elder is in the community. And when the men bash the women, these acts typical spiral down to their children suffering psychologically. So, the children stay out and cause mischief in public, until the police direct them to go home, or the police take these children home.

Poverty-level is about $420 a week. If you are on JobSeeker and only on JobSeeker, you will be struggling to make ends meet and be below the poverty line. But, if you are working a part-time or casual job, you can be getting above the poverty line. I see no reason why people on welfare cannot get some job collecting trolleys, working at the recycling, working at service stations, or being console operators at supermarkets, etc., whilst they receive welfare.

It is the fault of the person not trying to help themselves get out of poverty that is at fault. You can cite a lack of jobs, remoteness and whatever. But, if you are not trying to find that way to get out of poverty, you are primarily the one at fault.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1821 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 3:50pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 12:58am:

I think Nazis had a similar idea of corralling people to places that they did not want to be, too, Grappler. It did not work out for either, by the end of the war.

First - we'll only take the volunteers and the criminals and those who demand to 'do things their way' and stuff the rest ... .... if that works out we'll assimilate the rest as AustroVolk... any that fail always have Aborassic as a backup...

It's a brilliant idea.... satisfies everyone..... that would make a change....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1822 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 3:51pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 3:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 11:44am:

because a culture of welfare dependency aka "protection" was already imposed on the community.
people sitting around in public parks drinking themselves to death for historical/cultural/economic reasons have no agency, and likewise the crime they commit has sociological causes.
stop beinq a blind 'help-yourself' conservative ideologue.
And whose fault is that?
Last I heard, there were about half a million job vacancies in Oz, and over a million unemployed - which leaves half a million on the below-povery-level dole, even if sufficient training enabled the half-million job vacancies to be filled.

I might as well write a quoting-free post. But, best to highlight your stupidity.

Yes..you can't refute any of the points I made.

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You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't help indigenous Australians.

No; as Paul Keating said; "we were the ones who smashed their culture", so we are the ones who will have to steer them to modernity and prosperity.

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I have never heard of sitting around drinking in parks being something that is part of indigenous culture.

Your error here follows your error above: grog addiction is part of the smashed culture, not the original black culture.

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Poverty-level is about $420 a week. If you are on JobSeeker and only on JobSeeker, you will be struggling to make ends meet and be below the poverty line. But, if you are working a part-time or casual job, you can be getting above the poverty line. I see no reason why people on welfare cannot get some job collecting trolleys, working at the recycling, working at service stations, or being console operators at supermarkets, etc., whilst they receive welfare.

The reason is there are not enough part/full time jobs for the over 1 million long-term unemployed in Oz.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1823 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 3:55pm

They didn't have a culture to smash and they get smashed off their own bat easily enough...

No excuses - they'll just have to accept that they are now in the modern era and get on with it or die off...

Look at that lot over at Geraldton - 44k sq km of native title to camp out on (they never will) plus businesses handed to them plus royalties plus a shipload of cash to spread around plus you can bet the dole and extra funding keeps coming .... within two years they'll all be broke again ...

What should be done now that Mcgowan has made that costly choice - is leave it alone for a while, watch closely, and see what the results are - I don't any longer expect the ABC to be up in arms over the 'failure' when it comes along... make a song and dance about how Australia has failed the Indigenous again - that'll be under the carpet these days because it's off their own bat ... only what the dumbasses call the 'right wing media' will report the failures of this kind of paternalistic policy ....

No wonder McGowan left town in a hurry...... has he got a new position yet while spending all day with the family etc? Something soft and fat to add to the riches while the peasants sleep on the riverbanks and under bridges and in derelict buildings?

Look at that building in Sydney - a 'squat' for maybe fifteen homeless young people... what a disgrace.... any bodies found there?

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« Last Edit: Jun 1^st, 2023 at 4:02pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1824 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 4:42pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 3:55pm:

They didn't have a culture to smash and they get smashed off their own bat easily enough...

...exposing your lack of understanding; culture predates civilization.

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No excuses - they'll just have to accept that they are now in the modern era and get on with it or die off...

...while your crippled awareness insists on running the gaunlet of nuclear war in the age of MAD, while being complicit in actual 'conventional' war (so long as the veto exists in the UNSC). You talk about the modern world as if it is the epitome of 'civilization'.

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Look at that lot over at Geraldton - 44k sq km of native title to camp out on (they never will) plus businesses handed to them plus royalties plus a shipload of cash to spread around plus you can bet the dole and extra funding keeps coming .... within two years they'll all be broke again ...

Dementia? already fully addressed in a previous post.

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No wonder McGowan left town in a hurry...... has he got a new position yet while spending all day with the family etc? Something soft and fat to add to the riches while the peasants sleep on the riverbanks and under bridges and in derelict buildings?

That's the fault of our own political/economic dysfunction, not black cultural dysfunction.

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Look at that building in Sydney - a 'squat' for maybe fifteen homeless young people... what a disgrace.... any bodies found there?

Addressed above.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1825 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 5:52pm

UnSubRocky wrote on May 30^th, 2023 at 6:17pm:

Phukkstick, I told you that you responded to a point I was making to John Smith about not calling a 17-year-old indigenous girl a "jackass",

Ok....so forget about Smith's remarks; your remarks to me about a particular 17 yer old girl are irrelevant to the fact not enough jobs are available to end long-term unemployment in Oz.

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If you want to talk macroeconomics, you might want to discuss how a racial group of people who have a high unemployment rate can afford things that people of a similar socioeconomic background cannot. Until then, you can continue looking stupid with that condescending attitude of yours.

Already discussed. The egregious gap stats aren't compatible with people who "can afford things", so long as family dysfunction and incarceration rates are high. You refuse to acknowledge the downside of welfare dependency. which was imposed to keep them quiet, in lieu of provision of training and employemnt.

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Oh great! At least you admit indigenous people have exclusive benefits.

I am accepting your assertion - for the sake of the argument, while trying to educate you about macro economics.

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... that is still over 30 years to get your act together and become productive members of society.

Still displayig your ignorance of macroeconomics, in particular, the stats re long-term unemployed.

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And given the fact that you admit that indigenous people receive special privileges, the time to feel sorry for them about colonial era issues is LONG ended.

I loathe systemic poverty imposed on any people; as for feeling sorry/empathetic, well ...pass.....

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The Australian military is so hypersensitive to the 'feelings' of foreigners,

,... here we go, a sickening lecture from a conservative war monger.

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Think "Breaker Morant" when the officers wanted to make a sacrifice of some Australian soldiers so that the Boers could see that the British were unbias in military justice.

War is legalized murder, Morant was one of the unfortunates who got caught out in the sickening hypocrisy of it all.

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Your talk about killing children in wars is so antiquated,

I expected that to be your response. what's a child's life anyway?

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One solution is to drop the act of being an indigenous barbarian,

Says the guy who is ok with the slaughter of children in war....

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Yeah, well, how are you going to solve my poverty problems, whilst you are at it? Oh, right.... you don't entertain things that involve me.

By supporting the new macroeconomics school which has a Job Guarantee among its policies. You would be smart to get on board, rather then accepting the current entrenched NAIRU dogma.

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To solve black poverty, the general template to do this is to keep hygienic about yourself and your surroundings; eat nutritious meals; dress appropriately when in public; get educated (either in school, training, or self-taught); keep your health ideal; abide by the law of the land; hold respect for other people that respect you.

You will see poverty levels fall, if these principle guidelines are followed.

All correct; yet even you can't get enough part-time work to advance yourself much beyond the poverty line.

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Wars cost money.

And they are the ultimate expression of insanity among the belligerents.

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It is better to make friends and not enemies.

Better yet, submit to rule of international law, to settle disputes between nations.

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Things might be different if China and the United States escalate tensions with each other.

Kissinger turned 100 recently, he warned the world the US and China CANNOT go to war with one anither.

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If I was ideologically blind, I would not be here kicking your whingeing ultra-left-wing arse so much that you cry yourself asleep thinking about the "tough love" principles I endorse.

Im here to explore the reasons for the great political /economic divide afflicting humanity; even blind ideologues like you have much to teach us.

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I am quite happy with the way our economy is run.

Yet more than 10% are in poverty, and social breakdown is evident in many quarters.

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It would be better if the Liberal party was in charge again.

yes; that way you could continue to blame poverty on its victims, while priding yourself for being able to stay above the poverty line.

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But, for now, the economy is running well. And indigenous people are so spoiled in the last few decades that they have no reason to complain.

Typical remark from a satisfied above-poverty conservative: "I'm alright jack, what's the matter with the rest of youse layabouts"....

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« Last Edit: Jun 1^st, 2023 at 6:03pm by thegreatdivide »

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Gnads

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1826 - Jun 1^st, 2023 at 6:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 1:40pm:

Gnads wrote on May 31^st, 2023 at 1:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 30^th, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Conservatives, in the current parliamentary debate:

"We want equality before the law". ...which they define as "fairness for everyone".

Apparently poverty is not related to "fairness", or closing the gap.

I've heard a cockatoo with a less repetitive & greater range of vocabulary than you.

And that same cockatoo is probably more intelligent than you, since you are driven by anachronistic, blind, self-serving survival instincts which - as the mastery of technology by humans increases - are likely to result in the desruction of life in the age of MAD, rather than preservation of life (ie, individual organisms, you and me) on the planet as originally intended in the tooth and claw natural world.

No 2nd prize Polly.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Boris Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3912 Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #1827 - Jun 2^nd, 2023 at 10:14am https://twitter.com/i/status/1662245574354059265
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 39572	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #1828 - Jun 2^nd, 2023 at 1:31pm Boris wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2023 at 10:14am: https://twitter.com/i/status/1662245574354059265
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UnSubRocky

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #1829 - Jun 2^nd, 2023 at 3:20pm

thegreatdiversion,

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 5:52pm:

your remarks to me about a particular 17 yer old girl are irrelevant to the fact not enough jobs are available to end long-term unemployment in Oz.

Get it through your head that if a 17-year-old girl can admit that her racial background helped her get special privileges that helped her family avoid being impoverished, then it is very relevant. Had her family remained unemployed, that extra help would have been relevant in terms that the unemployment rate for other Australians was not a concern for her family. The other girl, now in her 30s, grew up with her brother and her mother in a single-mother and unemployed situation. She said that her mother had to rely on her racial background to get the family through those years (the 1990s) where being a single mother was not an easy task.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 1^st, 2023 at 5:52pm:

The egregious gap stats aren't compatible with people who "can afford things", so long as family dysfunction and incarceration rates are high. You refuse to acknowledge the downside of welfare dependency. which was imposed to keep them quiet, in lieu of provision of training and employment.

Not sure what you meant in your first sentence. I can acknowledge the downside of welfare dependency. I am welfare dependent. My welfare dependency is the result of living a life with considerable mental health issues. But, being welfare dependent has not stopped me from obtaining skills and training education. One benefit I have received has been the government funding course I am enrolled in at TAFE.

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Still displayig your ignorance of macroeconomics, in particular, the stats re long-term unemployed.

Quite the contrary. I am saying that 30 years of being unemployed, unemployable, or underemployed is the fault of the indigenous people that it applies. The number of indigenous people who I have known pulling themselves out of near poverty to be middle-income earners is quite impressive, despite your claims that it is not possible for indigenous people to do that due to macroeconomic factors, etc.

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I loathe systemic poverty imposed on any people

Do you loathe the people that have a "poor bugger me" attitude that drive them into poverty? Because that is the reason why they are in poverty.

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here we go, a sickening lecture from a conservative war monger.

That label does not apply to me. If you bothered comprehending what you read of my post, you would have inferred that I meant the Australian army is taking a softly-softly approach towards enemy soldiers.

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War is legalized murder, Morant was one of the unfortunates who got caught out in the sickening hypocrisy of it all.

Morant was guilty of murdering prisoners of war.

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Says the guy who is ok with the slaughter of children in war....

I have made no such claim about being okay with civilians getting killed, especially children. I have a relative who is a refugee from Ukraine. I don't want her getting killed in the conflict. But, I bet she has known of children getting killed by the Russians. Take your false allegations against me to the front line of that conflict.

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yet even you can't get enough part-time work to advance yourself much beyond the poverty line.

Not true. There are jobs available to me all over town here. I was even offered a job as a taxi driver, a few years ago. The fact that I work anywhere from 10 to 20 hours a week is the result of some laziness. Too busy distracting myself with posting online, or wanting to be entertained. But, the fact that my TAFE starts next week, and my financial situation is starting to get a little gloomy, I will be escalating my work hours in the coming weeks. You won't be hearing much from me.

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Im here to explore the reasons for the great political /economic divide afflicting humanity; even blind ideologues like you have much to teach us.

Some people want to live in the traditional world. Some people want to live in a progressive world. Most people want a bit of both sides. That's your first lesson.

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Yet more than 10% are in poverty, and social breakdown is evident in many quarters.

I will repeat myself. I live at just above the poverty level. I can behave myself, despite living in poverty.

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that way you could continue to blame poverty on its victims, while priding yourself for being able to stay above the poverty line.

People are not a victim of poverty. They just choose to accept being in poverty. I can continue to blame people for being in poverty, for as long as I have avoided that trap, despite my circumstances.

The way you write, you sound like one of those quitters. If you don't succeed, you give up and avoid improvement. That is not how I live my life. If I want something, I have to earn it.

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Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
* This poll has now closed *
No 42 (75.0%) Yes 14 (25.0%) Total votes: 56 « Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25^th, 2023 at 11:17am »