Australian Politics Forum - The Aboriginal Voice referendum

thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #240 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 11:42am

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 10:35am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 28^th, 2022 at 1:49pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 28^th, 2022 at 1:44pm:

The new Abbo voice:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/037/670/439/original/55ac22...

You are making Frank's mistake.

The voice wants to close the gap, not perpetuate it.

...regardless of what nonsense 'the voice' (other than Noel Pearson's voice) will come up with, in the usual misguided policies to close the gap.

How? What will the voice do to close the gap that is not done now? How will it do it?

Explain.

You should ask that question of supporters of the voice, you know my position. (eg #226).

Supporters of the voice think it will help to close the gap.

Noel Pearson thinks the voice AND a JG will close the gap.

I think the JG is the absolute necessity to close the gap.

Indeed the voice enshrined in the constitution could have unintended consequences (eg, perpetuating division forever, or until the voice is repealed in a later referendum) ...though it's not likely to get up, now that the Nats are campaigning against it...Littleproud's stated reason being: "it will not close the gap"...presumably meaning he wants to close the gap, like Mundine and Price who say they want to close the gap but do not say how.

Graps reckons let the blacks close it themselves.... problem solved. Thanks graps....for that 'useful' contribution...

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« Last Edit: Nov 29^th, 2022 at 11:49am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #241 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 12:02pm

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 11:34am:

Who do these people speak for, whose voice ARE they?

Linda Burney

the left

Quote:

Noel Pearson

the compassionate left AND right

Quote:

Jacinta Price

the right

Quote:

Lividia Thorpe

the left

Quote:

Warren Mundine
Pat Dodson
Ken Wyatt
Jackie Lambie
Etc, etc, State and territory MPs.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parliamentary_...

If they are not sufficient, who ELSE needs to be elected go the voice??? And if they are NOT sufficient or effective voices, what the hell are they doing in parliament?

So.... we have the usual democratic cacophony - of blind leading the blind voices....that's what elected adversarial parliaments are...

Quote:

The voice is a stupid idea and it divides Australians and will prevent reconciliation. You cannot mandate respect for any group of people or any individual. Respect cannot be legislated. It has to be earned. Plenty of Aborigines have earned genuine respect. The dysfunctional, violent ones will not be respected unless they change. No voice will make them palatable or respectable. They must earn it or remain despised and dysfunctional lowlifes.

Oh... graps ignorant solution; "let them close the gap themselves".

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #242 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 28^th, 2022 at 4:21pm:

Christ you go around in circles- 'wanting' to close some gap is not the same as doing something to close that gap IF that gap exists in reality. You already said, over and over, that this 'voice' silliness will close no gaps... so FCS leave it!

Mein Gott....

1. wanting to close the gap, as polls show most fair- minded Australians do, is a worthy desire.

2. doing something to close the gap, also desirable, but WHAT to do, exactly?

3. "if that gap exists in reality" ...hello, what planet are you living on? (I already know: the planet where a vicious 'survival of the fittest' competition for available resources holds sway).

Quote:

Can you just, for one day, stick to the issue of whether or not some mythical voice should be installed in our constitution that permits inside running on every issue and will cause endless trouble? For five minutes - just stop being yourself, don-kay?

Only when you own up to your vicious ideology, exposed above.

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #243 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 1:01pm

There is job guarantee for Aborigines already. There is a plethora of programs, schemes, encouragement, set-ups, subsidies, apprenticeships, Aboriginal corporations, etc, etc, etc.

All that Aborigines need to bring is the will to take the assistance and... er.... actually work. You know, turn up, on time and sober, , put in the effort and repeat tomorrow and stick with it. But the dysfunctional can't manage that. Who can change them? Only themselves (or Mao, on pain of execution, as he managed the druggies in China).

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink - or in the case of many remote Aborigines, whitey cannot stop them drinking and feuding and raping and abusing. Only other Aborigines can do it. But they ain't doing it. Why? Why is there no maximum pressure BY Aborigines ON Aborigines, on the ground??
Where are the respected, strong Aboriginal elders? What is the numerical and power ratio between functional and dysfunctional Aborigines in these remote town and villages?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #244 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 2:19pm

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 1:01pm:

There is job guarantee for Aborigines already. There is a plethora of programs, schemes, encouragement, set-ups, subsidies, apprenticeships, Aboriginal corporations, etc, etc, etc.

No, there is a 'sit-down money' regime in place, with an associated poverty industry which is supposed to deal with the resulting demoralization. Unemployment among blacks is double that of whites.

Quote:

All that Aborigines need to bring is the will to take the assistance and... er.... actually work.
You know, turn up, on time and sober, , put in the effort and repeat tomorrow and stick with it.

er...there are around 700,000 non-blacks living on the unemployment scrap-heap, how are the unemployed blacks supposed to land a job?

Quote:

But the dysfunctional can't manage that.

Of course not; community social dysfunction on top of the vicious NAIRU job market, makes it impossible.

Quote:

Who can change them? Only themselves (or Mao, on pain of execution, as he managed the druggies in China).

Wrong; as Price has said, the nation must take responsibility to close the gap (though she didn't specify how....)

Quote:

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink - or in the case of many remote Aborigines, whitey cannot stop them drinking and feuding and raping and abusing. Only other Aborigines can do it. But they ain't doing it. Why? Why is there no maximum pressure BY Aborigines ON Aborigines, on the ground??
Where are the respected, strong Aboriginal elders? What is the numerical and power ratio between functional and dysfunctional Aborigines in these remote town and villages?

Sounds like a direct quote from graps, so I'll pass...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #245 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 5:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 2:19pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 1:01pm:

There is job guarantee for Aborigines already. There is a plethora of programs, schemes, encouragement, set-ups, subsidies, apprenticeships, Aboriginal corporations, etc, etc, etc.

No, there is a 'sit-down money' regime in place, with an associated poverty industry which is supposed to deal with the resulting demoralization. Unemployment among blacks is double that of whites.

Quote:

All that Aborigines need to bring is the will to take the assistance and... er.... actually work.
You know, turn up, on time and sober, , put in the effort and repeat tomorrow and stick with it.

er...there are around 700,000 non-blacks living on the unemployment scrap-heap, how are the unemployed blacks supposed to land a job?

Quote:

But the dysfunctional can't manage that.

Of course not; community social dysfunction on top of the vicious NAIRU job market, makes it impossible.

Quote:

Who can change them? Only themselves (or Mao, on pain of execution, as he managed the druggies in China).

Wrong; as Price has said, the nation must take responsibility to close the gap (though she didn't specify how....)

Quote:

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink - or in the case of many remote Aborigines, whitey cannot stop them drinking and feuding and raping and abusing. Only other Aborigines can do it. But they ain't doing it. Why? Why is there no maximum pressure BY Aborigines ON Aborigines, on the ground??
Where are the respected, strong Aboriginal elders? What is the numerical and power ratio between functional and dysfunctional Aborigines in these remote town and villages?

Sounds like a direct quote from graps, so I'll pass...

Just that great minds think alike... though not completely - you see - the fundamental difference between great minds and minds idling along on spoon fed pap is that great minds can differ on some things.... they have no need of or place in being just another drone mind...

Just like the defunct CDEP ...

If you choose to live in the Ning Nang Nong you can expect to be unemployed.....sorry 'bout that...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #246 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 5:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 28^th, 2022 at 4:21pm:

Christ you go around in circles- 'wanting' to close some gap is not the same as doing something to close that gap IF that gap exists in reality. You already said, over and over, that this 'voice' silliness will close no gaps... so FCS leave it!

Mein Gott....

1. wanting to close the gap, as polls show most fair- minded Australians do, is a worthy desire.

You are incapable of seeing the difference between a desire and action.....

2. doing something to close the gap, also desirable, but WHAT to do, exactly?

... then go out and DO something, instead of trying to make out that somehow a person who says 'action is required, not sentiment' is not 'fair-minded' or whatever... grow up ...

3. "if that gap exists in reality" ...hello, what planet are you living on? (I already know: the planet where a vicious 'survival of the fittest' competition for available resources holds sway). ...'gaps' created by personal choices are not the same as Gaps.... DNA that says 'we die earlier' is not a Gap - it is a simple reality ... and so on and so forth...

Quote:

Can you just, for one day, stick to the issue of whether or not some mythical voice should be installed in our constitution that permits inside running on every issue and will cause endless trouble? For five minutes - just stop being yourself, don-kay?

Only when you own up to your vicious ideology, exposed above.

... I have no ideology -you've exposed nothing but your own narrow-mindedness and inability to see simple realities.... thanks for coming - NOW grow up.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 80318 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum Reply #247 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 8:42pm Save that goal.... https://twitter.com/buitengebieden/status/1597290841202077696?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmV...
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AusGeoff

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #248 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 8:54pm

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 1:01pm:

There is job guarantee for Aborigines already. There is a plethora of programs, schemes, encouragement, set-ups, subsidies, apprenticeships, Aboriginal corporations, etc, etc, etc...

As a card-carrying racist, you might like to believe that
there're all these wonderful programs and payments for
Aborigines, but most of them don't exist or are inappropriate
for purpose.

Can you name half a dozen or more of these programs for us?

Can you also list payments and subsidies made to Aboriginals?

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #249 - Nov 29^th, 2022 at 9:32pm

AusGeoff wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 8:54pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 1:01pm:

There is job guarantee for Aborigines already. There is a plethora of programs, schemes, encouragement, set-ups, subsidies, apprenticeships, Aboriginal corporations, etc, etc, etc...

As a card-carrying racist, you might like to believe that
there're all these wonderful programs and payments for
Aborigines, but most of them don't exist or are inappropriate
for purpose.

Can you name half a dozen or more of these programs for us?

Can you also list payments and subsidies made to Aboriginals?

So why are these programs in place? Who has been agitating for them, implementing them, promoting them? Why are there targeted Aboriginal programs, jobs, departments, corporations, cooperatives to the tune of billions of dollars and thousands of jobs if they all amount to shite?

Because you cannot buy or impose motivation, will, responsibility. They have to come from within.
You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think. (Dorothy Parker) Same with Aboriginese and all the other generational self-sabotagers. They must bring something. Expecting all to be readied for them to walk into is delusional bollox.

But you NEVER, EVER hear about what effort Aborigines are making. All you EVER hear about is what everyone else should do for them.
No wonder they are held in such low esteem. Conversely, the Aborigines who DO make an effort and a contribution are esteemed and celebrated and rightly so.
Why?

Because if you make an effort, if you contribute, if you are pulling your weight then your race or colour don't matter.
Fit in or fuqqq the hell orf applies to everyone, Aboriginese included. 50,000 thousand years means nothing if you are a drugged up, drunken, violent arse'ole raping your 13 year old niece and clobbering your wife. You are not a victim, you are a bloody menace. Don't hide behind your Aboriginality, colonialism, generational disadvantage an the rest of the udiotic excuses. i

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Frank

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #250 - Nov 30^th, 2022 at 10:09am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 10:50am:

But as to "let them fix their own problems" ( ie close the gap), Pearson also exposed your world view for what it is: free market ideology based on blind self-interest manifested in a survival of the fittest competition for the nation's resources.

He named the usual free market ideologues: the IPA, the CIS (the a**holes responsible for cancelling the CDEP), Tom Switzer (IPA chief who has a slot on the lib. govt-mandated "balanced" ABC, called 'Between The Lines"), and Janet Albrechtsen, conservative journalist with 'The Australian', and enthusiast for Maggie Thatcher.

Jacinta Nampijinpa
@JNampijinpa
Pictured at a ‘right wing’ think tank event. Noel - Given your longer standing relationship with the CIS, their support for your work & your contributions through CIS papers and events are you suggesting you’re caught in a celebrity redneck vortex unable to think for yourself?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #251 - Nov 30^th, 2022 at 12:15pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 5:50pm:

Just that great minds think alike... though not completely - you see - the fundamental difference between great minds and minds idling along on spoon fed pap is that great minds can differ on some things.... they have no need of or place in being just another drone mind...

You forget - tiny minds can also think alike and differ on some things they aren't even aware of. ....

Quote:

Just like the defunct CDEP ...

Destroyed by your blind, vicious 'survival of fittest' competition for resources

Quote:

If you choose to live in the Ning Nang Nong you can expect to be unemployed.....sorry 'bout that...

So sayeth the pigmy mind, condemning 700,000 long-term unemployed Australians to the unemployment scrap heap.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #252 - Nov 30^th, 2022 at 12:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2022 at 12:15pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 5:50pm:

Just that great minds think alike... though not completely - you see - the fundamental difference between great minds and minds idling along on spoon fed pap is that great minds can differ on some things.... they have no need of or place in being just another drone mind...

You forget - tiny minds can also think alike and differ on some things they aren't even aware of. ....

.. only a theory to validate the dumb ..... like the faggots saying anyone who opposes their silly claims to 'rights' is a closet gay ..... LMFHO.....

Quote:

Just like the defunct CDEP ...

Destroyed by your blind, vicious 'survival of fittest' competition for resources

... never been my thing ... a man has to do what a man has to do, and so does an Abo .....

Quote:

If you choose to live in the Ning Nang Nong you can expect to be unemployed.....sorry 'bout that...

So sayeth the pigmy mind, condemning 700,000 long-term unemployed Australians to the unemployment scrap heap.

..... irrelevant... we are talking about the Ning Nang Nong livers - no unemployed Other can move to the Nong and get paid social security........

......some play school before they went faggot on us all... brought in the TrannyPlay to not indoctrinate little kids into false belief systems...

Bobby? You're on ..........................

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« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2022 at 12:29pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #253 - Nov 30^th, 2022 at 12:49pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 5:54pm:

You are incapable of seeing the difference between a desire and action.....

you saying this, after I have been agreeing all along with Price we need action to close the gap, not a constitutional voice. Where's your brain, ffs.

But of course the Right can't or won't specify WHAT action is required, though even the Nats would laugh at your remedy, namely "let the blacks fix the gap themselves".

Quote:

... then go out and DO something, instead of trying to make out that somehow a person who says 'action is required, not sentiment' is not 'fair-minded' or whatever... grow up ...

Mein Gott, I thought I was debating with someone reasonably intelligent. Most Australians want to close the gap, and polls show c 65% in favour of a voice because they think a voice will help to close the gap. They want to close the gap, because they are fair-minded, whereas you are content to blame the blacks themselves for the gap and walk away saying "let them fix it themselves".

You are certainly NOT among the 'fair-minded'.

Quote:

...'gaps' created by personal choices [quote] are not the same as Gaps.... DNA that says 'we die earlier' is not a Gap - it is a simple reality ... and so on and so forth...

Thinking straight out of the blind "survival of the fittest" competition ideology.

DNA is certainly not a "personal choice", but neither is the highest incarceration rates in the world experienced by blacks.

Quote:

... I have no ideology -you've exposed nothing but your own narrow-mindedness and inability to see simple realities.... thanks for coming - NOW grow up.....

Of course the blind, instinctive "survival of the fittest" competition for resources, which is the manifestation of your ideology, is... not seen by the possessors of that ideology, by definition.

Hence your delusional statement: "I have no ideology"....

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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #254 - Nov 30^th, 2022 at 1:32pm

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 9:32pm:

So why are these programs in place?

They are (mostly failed) attempts to close the gap.... failed, because the systems failure** which is responsible for the gap is not acknowledged.

**ie acceptance of systemic long-term unemployment.

Quote:

Who has been agitating for them, implementing them, promoting them? Why are there targeted Aboriginal programs, jobs, departments, corporations, cooperatives to the tune of billions of dollars and thousands of jobs if they all amount to shite?

The systems failure noted above, not acknowledged by mainstream Neo-Keynesian, Neo-classical economists, means real solutions like a Job Guarantee are denied, in favour of the ineffective, costly and massive poverty industry which is described by you above.

Quote:

Because you cannot buy or impose motivation, will, responsibility. They have to come from within.

Everyone wants to prosper, but a vicious survival of the fittest competition for resources means some must fall into the unemployment scrap heap.

Quote:

You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think. (Dorothy Parker)

Women have been forced into prostitution since time immemorial, sometimes even by their husbands, in times of social upheaval and war....in the vicious 'survival of the fittest' competition for resources that often characterizes life on this planet.

Quote:

Same with Aboriginese and all the other generational self-sabotagers. They must bring something. Expecting all to be readied for them to walk into is delusional bollox.

Refuted above. Your blind acceptance of the vicious "survival of the fittest'' competition for resources as some type natural economic law is THE cause of the gap ...as well as the gap with the "trailer trash" white poor....

Quote:

But you NEVER, EVER hear about what effort Aborigines are making. All you EVER hear about is what everyone else should do for them.
No wonder they are held in such low esteem. Conversely, the Aborigines who DO make an effort and a contribution are esteemed and celebrated and rightly so.
Why?

Those most able to succeed in the vicious economic competition for resources which is our current economic system will be fine, those least able to suceed will fail to prosper.

Quote:

Because if you make an effort, if you contribute, if you are pulling your weight then your race or colour don't matter.

More of your GIGO (blind garbage) , except for the last bit - indeed some blacks prosper while some whites fail.

Quote:

Fit in or fuqqq the hell orf applies to everyone, Aboriginese included. 50,000 thousand years means nothing if you are a drugged up, drunken, violent arse'ole raping your 13 year old niece and clobbering your wife. You are not a victim, you are a bloody menace. Don't hide behind your Aboriginality, colonialism, generational disadvantage an the rest of the udiotic excuses.

The highlighted: impossible, if the economic system itself cannot create employment for all, but in fact requires a level of permanent unemployment to control wages and hence inflation. i

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Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
* This poll has now closed *
No 42 (75.0%) Yes 14 (25.0%) Total votes: 56 « Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25^th, 2023 at 11:17am »