Frank wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 2:25pm:


Thats nonsense. No group of people are criticised by the Quran more than muslims themselves.

Half of the Quran is about castigating muslims who are portrayed as hypocrital, fickle, not having enough devotion etc. Just like the OT is a constant narration of how unworthy (most) of the followers of the OT prophets were - so to the Quran continues the tradition of pointing out the deviant behaviour of the followers - and how they constantly need to be corrected.

Frank, how on earth does it make sense that (according to Islamic doctrine) - God created man to worship him - but for thousands and thousands of years until the early 7th century AH - no one actually worshipped him?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 4:13pm:



It's nonsense. But that's Mohammed for you.

The "correct" worship starts with following Mohammed. Everyone was doing it wrong before him. Hence Mohammedanism is the only correct way to recognise and worship Allah.  There would be no point of Mohammed and his Koran if people had worshipped God correctly before him.

(And never mind that his Koran was not his either but pieced together on the bizarrest principles).

Frank wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:


So final answer - according to the Quran - no muslims existed before Muhammad? And this is despite the fact that "muslims" were specifically identified, and that a long list of prophets - from Adam to Jesus - were specifically identified as Prophets of the one true religion (ie Islam)?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 30^th, 2022 at 11:13am:



No Koran existed before Mohammed (except in the Koran, of course....)

And please dont come with a distinction between existed ( supposedly eternally) and revealed ( to Mohammed).   Humanity was unaware of the eternal unchanging Koran until it was revealed to Mo. Had it existed before there would have been no point to Mo. Muslims follow the Koran and Mohammed's example and teachings. There could have been no Muslim, by definition, without the Koran that was revealed to Mo AND NOT BEFORE.

Frank wrote on Aug 30^th, 2022 at 1:28pm:


Are you even listening to yourself? You are saying that thousands of years of prophethood and revelation before the Quran is meaningless to muslims. We know this is bunkum because the Quran itself explains their importance.

For muslims, the Quran is merely the final revelation - the perfection of the previous revelations of the Torah and the gospel. You do understand that the Quran specifically identifies the Torah and gospel (by name) - as divine in origin right?

Externally, looking at Islam today from the outside, of course it is seen as meaningless without Muhammad. And that is perfectly understandable. But for musims themselves - as taught in Islamic doctrine - pre-Muhammad Abrahamic tradition is absolutely integral to the religion - and in fact meaningless without it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 2:07pm:


If 5/32 means what apologists and muslims claim it means why do they always leave out the first bit mentioning children of Israel?

If 5/32 applied to muslims then surely the moderates would be able to silence the fundamentalists who do Jihad (Islamic terror) by quoting that verse yet for some reason this doesn't happen. 

If 5/32 applies to muslims why did Qadri need 600 pages for his fatwa to outlaw Islamic terror surely he could have just quoted 5/32 which he didn't.

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As we can see with Muhsin Khans translation here children of Israel = Jews. Bit in brackets doesn't appear in Quran.
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You can see 5/32 doesn't apply to muslims when you read 9/5.
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If 5/32 applies to muslims like apologists and moderate muslims claim then surely that is a direct contradiction of 9/5. Of course Gandalf has claimed there are no contradictions in the Quran:

What does the Quran say abut contradictions?
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4/82 makes it clear the Quran isn't from Allah non muslims can see this yet muslims must be hoping for all those houris and rivers of wine in Islamic afterlife.