Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #15 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 9:30am

He will also reveal the proposed wording for three sentences to be added to the nation's founding document:

1.There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
2.The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
3.The parliament shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

So it would be an ATSIC that cannot be abolished (like the last one was, for gross incompetence and corruption).

I can't see bipartisan support for something so vague and superfluous. Aborigines are making representations to parliaments and governments already. What will a Voice be able to achieve that cannot be achieved without it?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #16 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 9:54am

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 8:21am:

What is the point of having a referendum if we do not know what we are voting for? That could mean anything.

And, I'd bet, it's currently intended to be vague.

If Australia followed the NZ model, it would mean permanent Aboriginal representation in Parliament - i.e. permanent seats allocated to people of Aboriginal descent with only people of Aboriginal descent able to vote for representatives in those seats.

The Uluru statement cannot be incorporated into the constitution or legislation due to the statement's poor choice of terms.

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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8428 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #17 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:08am
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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #18 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:35am

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 29^th, 2022 at 10:40pm:

Prime Minister to announce Australia's first referendum in 20 years at Garma Festival. Here's what you might be asked Cool

Makes a complete mockery of our constitution & political system when the elected Aboriginal representatives to the Parliament & Senate are not enough to give voice to Indigenous issues.

It's also discriminatory in a committee of non elected people from one demographic having direct access or voice to Govt.

They are Australians, they have for a long time had lobby groups to put their issues forward & through the same political processes as anyone else.

Whatever form this takes can the Govt guarantee that this will go a long way toward fixing the real issues in rural & remote communities?

Or is this just another example of superfluous woke grandstanding & back slapping?

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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #19 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:40am

Frank wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 9:30am:

He will also reveal the proposed wording for three sentences to be added to the nation's founding document:

1.There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
2.The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
3.The parliament shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

So it would be an ATSIC that cannot be abolished (like the last one was, for gross incompetence and corruption).

I can't see bipartisan support for something so vague and superfluous. Aborigines are making representations to parliaments and governments already. What will a Voice be able to achieve that cannot be achieved without it?

It would seem then that they don't need elected representatives in Parliament or the Senate.

These Indigenous representatives should then be made redundant ....no?

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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #20 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:42am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 9:54am:

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 8:21am:

What is the point of having a referendum if we do not know what we are voting for? That could mean anything.

And, I'd bet, it's currently intended to be vague.

If Australia followed the NZ model, it would mean permanent Aboriginal representation in Parliament - i.e. permanent seats allocated to people of Aboriginal descent with only people of Aboriginal descent able to vote for representatives in those seats.

The Uluru statement cannot be incorporated into the constitution or legislation due to the statement's poor choice of terms.

In fact it's discriminatory if not racist.

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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8428 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #21 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 11:31am All Marx Brothers jokes aside, I don't support any small minority group having a special representation in parliament.
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Boris

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #22 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 11:44am

It is already part of the Constitution - all that is needed - we do not need more crap

It would divide Australians, not unite us. The intention of Aboriginal activists for the past forty years has been to gain sovereignty and self-determination under their own laws and governments. They regard constitutional change not as the fulfilment of their demands but simply one more step in the “unfinished business” of segregating themselves from the Australian nation, which they regard as a vehicle of colonial oppression. After they establish their Aboriginal Voice, their next objective has been openly discussed in their own literature, but rarely reported in the mainstream media. It is to create independent black states linked only to Australia by treaties. They will be funded by rents, taxes and reparations on Australian governments and, in particular, on our mining, agricultural, pastoral and timber industries.

Eligibility for membership of each of these independent states would be restricted to people of Aboriginal descent — in other words, these states would be based on race. This would inevitably generate widespread resentment among non-Aboriginal Australians, who would have to pay for it all. A constitutional amendment to give Aboriginal people privileges unavailable to other Australians would not make our nation complete. It would divide it permanently.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #23 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:07pm

Frank wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 9:30am:

He will also reveal the proposed wording for three sentences to be added to the nation's founding document:

1.There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
2.The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
3.The parliament shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

So it would be an ATSIC that cannot be abolished (like the last one was, for gross incompetence and corruption).

I can't see bipartisan support for something so vague and superfluous. Aborigines are making representations to parliaments and governments already. What will a Voice be able to achieve that cannot be achieved without it?

Doesn't even begin to say what its actual functions and powers will be....

ADDS:- I will say again - exactly what affects Aborigines that does not at the same time affect the entire community? Say - a land claim? A demand for more money? Demand for special privileges? Demand for more services to counter their endemic problems?

No, thanks.

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Boris

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #24 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:08pm

Australian Aboriginals have never ceded sovereignty to the British Crown, as the activists tell us is the case, then aren’t they excluded from being a Senator or representative member of the Australian Parliament as per Section 44 of the Australian Constitution? Section 44 states at subsection (i.):

44. Any person who –

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.”

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 80203 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #25 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:15pm I don't recall ceding sovereignty to the British Crown, either......... small wandering groups are the same as any individual - they had and have no concept of ceding sovereignty they never had.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #26 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:16pm

Boris wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:08pm:

Australian Aboriginals have never ceded sovereignty to the British Crown, as the activists tell us is the case, then aren’t they excluded from being a Senator or representative member of the Australian Parliament as per Section 44 of the Australian Constitution? Section 44 states at subsection (i.):

44. Any person who –

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.”

Hear, hear! And refund the incomes .....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8428 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #27 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:36pm
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #28 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:38pm

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 8:34am:

I expect it will mean someone will do a welcome to country speech at the opening of each parliament, and be appointed by parliament to tell them whatever they want to hear about aborigines needing the government to do something. It will absolve politicians of the need to take any responsibility for their decisions - "it's not our fault, the voice told us to do it". Then we can blame the aborigines for the racist games our politicians play.

Just like every other aboriginal "representative" body that has ever been appointed.

Downe at Ye Olde Treasone Triale:-

"Why, Mr/Ms/Miss/Mrs - oh forget it... listen Turkey - why did you do what you did?"

"The voices told me to do it...................." (oh, mothra - what have you done?)

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #29 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:51pm

Here is the news to date:-

Aborigines etc already have all the voice they need same as everyone else.

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.

What the actual powers and functions of any Special Voice are intended to be has not begun to be addressed. The wording is vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Such a voice is racist, discriminatory and exclusionist.

It is not clear if any 'voice' has political voting power in Parliament.

Such a voice body would be an ATSIC or similar that could never be abolished or stood down for corruption etc.

It will achieve nothing that cannot be achieved without it, and at huge and unnecessary cost in money and disturbance of the democratic process

The intent of 'Aboriginal activists' is not to view this as the end result, but as the stepping stone towards the creation of mini-states throughout Australia, all bound by treaty to the Australian Government and funded by the taxpayer and any relevant business wishing to operate there.

It is not simply about 'Aboriginal issues'. Any claim or demand by one group has direct effects on every member of Australia. Similar to 'women's issues' and such these do not exist in a vacuum.

Depending on the model, it could mean permanent seats in Parliament for people who are only voted on by that one group (or groups) – those claiming Aboriginal descent.

To have a separate voice elected only by Aboriginals would mean that the current Aboriginal elected representatives are superfluous and should be stood down.

The claim to have 'never ceded sovereignty', means that elected Aborigines are ineligible to be chosen or to sit in Parliament.

44. Any person who –

Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

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« Last Edit: Jul 30^th, 2022 at 2:28pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?
YES 11 (28.9%) NO 27 (71.1%) Total votes: 38 « Created by: Grappler Truth Teller Feller on: Jul 30^th, 2022 at 7:27pm »