Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

AusGeoff

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #60 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:45pm

Aboriginals represent 3.3% of the total Australian population (ABS 2019).
There are currently 27 Aboriginal members of State and Federal parliaments.

Indigenous Australian parliamentarians in Federal and State/Territory Parliaments.

I'd reckon the abos already have (or had) a pretty good "voice" in government.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #61 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:50pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:04pm:

Thanks Mr Divide,

You can't help them no matter what you do.

Examine the successful CDEP scheme (successful before Howard cancelled it) which proves people can be assisted into morale building employment, and away from alcoholism engendered by unemployment.

Too many of them are still alcoholics and petrol sniffers.

because the CDEP was cancelled, when it should have been more widely instituted by the government...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #62 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:58pm

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:45pm:

Aboriginals represent 3.3% of the total Australian population (ABS 2019).
There are currently 27 Aboriginal members of State and Federal parliaments.

Indigenous Australian parliamentarians in Federal and State/Territory Parliaments.

I'd reckon the abos already have (or had) a pretty good "voice" in government.

Yes, proving that a lack of an abo voice in parliament is not the problem behind lack of "decency" mentioned today by Albo and many abo reps.

We can prove it by voting for the voice, and then see what happens....ie likely absolutely nothing, for "decency" and closing the gap (which is J. Price's argument; but she has no solutions beyond 'personal responsibility'....the old conservative canard).

And we will still have all the disagreements among abos themselves eg, over the cashless welfare card, and freedom of access to alcohol...

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #63 - Jul 30^th, 2022 at 11:39pm

So what is this 'decency'? Did Albo forget to mention the details again?

Propagandists are good at that... tell a half-truth or no truth, and wrap it is sugar coating.

Think, boy - THINK! Politicians are all well-trained liars. What makes you think Albo is doing anything more than spouting his learned lines designed by the party?

The party think tank, tanked in smoke and good wine and whiskey after a good meal at your expense and gathered to work out how best to sell their idea - does NOT represent the Australian people... Got that?

Stop jellyfishing, Albo - and get to the realities.

Even here there has accumulated a list of reasons to vote NO!

Give the Australian people some credit.... if it's right they'll vote for it, but trying to hoodwink them will guarantee they won't.... and they won't!

It's a stupid idea from start to finish.

Aborigines etc already have all the voice they need same as everyone else.

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.

What the actual powers and functions of any Special Voice are intended to be has not begun to be addressed. The wording is vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Such a voice is racist, discriminatory and exclusionist.

It is not clear if any 'voice' has political voting power in Parliament.

Such a voice body would be an ATSIC or similar that could never be abolished or stood down for corruption etc.

It will achieve nothing that cannot be achieved without it, and at huge and unnecessary cost in money and disturbance of the democratic process

The intent of 'Aboriginal activists' is not to view this as the end result, but as the stepping stone towards the creation of mini-states throughout Australia, all bound by treaty to the Australian Government and funded by the taxpayer and any relevant business wishing to operate there.

It is not simply about 'Aboriginal issues'. Any claim or demand by one group has direct effects on every member of Australia. Similar to 'women's issues' and such these do not exist in a vacuum.

Depending on the model, it could mean permanent seats in Parliament for people who are only voted on by that one group (or groups) – those claiming Aboriginal descent.

To have a separate voice elected only by Aboriginals would mean that the current Aboriginal elected representatives are superfluous and should be stood down.

The claim to have 'never ceded sovereignty', means that elected Aborigines are ineligible to be chosen or to sit in Parliament.

44. Any person who –

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 87687 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #64 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 12:17am HMAS Grappler bombards shore targets V-Day 2022
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #65 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 1:10am

Dare any of you read this and analyse it for us?

https://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-co-design...

This is the caption on Twitter it came across under:-

"For all the people claiming there is no detail about the proposed Indigenous Voice to parliament, here is 270 or so pages of detail prepared by Profs Tom Calma & Marcia Langton for the Morrison government."

You judge for yourselves..... but do take the time and energy.

Where's MY Voice to Parliament? Am I out of line here?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Johnnie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12485 Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #66 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 1:43am Its going to be a big job interpreting the voice into Kriol so the Abbos can understand, Mark had a hard time trying to make them understand about covid one.
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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #67 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 8:10am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 8:18pm:

https://i.imgflip.com/6odwt4.jpg

No way. My job is to have you feeling the pain of the ugliness of your dysfunctional neoliberal ideology which serves the most competitive quite well, but leaves the least capable behind to lanquish in poverty.

Quote:

As usual - you are trapped in theory. None of that works - even 'opportunity' is lost for persons who choose to live in ghettoes and lead the easy life of doing as little as possible, and who live in remote areas

People don't choose to live in ghettos, and abos in remote settlements took the opportunities offered by the very successful CDEP scheme outlined in the previous post.

"Opportunity is comparative - their opportunity to become a fisherperson or a hunter far outweighs the opportunity of a major city dweller to do that.... what are these 'opportunities' of which you speak?"

The opportunities offered by the CDEP, which Howard trashed - in a typical bit of RW ideological bastardry.

Note: living in the modern world by hunting and fishing alone is no longer possible, that's your "comparative opportunity" error.

Quote:

We all understand fully the difference between equality of opportunity.... and equality of outcome.... so how do you propose to provide equal opportunity to do anything to those who live in remote areas and choose not to go to school etc, and prefer to wage tribal wars, as in the NT and parts of WA?

See the CDEP scheme, cancelled by Howard. Se details in #54.

Quote:

What is your actual proposal over and above the baseless hope that governments here will suddenly 'see the light' as you say it to be, and start down a new path that will somehow miraculously resolve all the problems?

Similar to the CDEP scheme; instead of cancelling it, Howard should have expanded it to include all abos. (and to all unemployed white youth...).

Government will be forced to see the the light, when even an enshrined voice is shown to be useless against the current vicious survival of the fittest market neoliberalism.

Quote:

Please - let's not hear any more about 'generational disadvantage'

Request denied. You need to examine your attachment to the current vicious neoliberal economic system.

For 40 thousand years no government intervention. Now, everything depends on government intervention

How did Aborigines survive across every environment on this continent for 40 thousands years only to be totally dependent on government money and initiatives in some environments such as their remote homelands (both government and money being hateful colonial impositions)??

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freediver

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #68 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 8:53am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jul 31^st, 2022 at 1:10am:

Dare any of you read this and analyse it for us?

https://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-co-design...

This is the caption on Twitter it came across under:-

"For all the people claiming there is no detail about the proposed Indigenous Voice to parliament, here is 270 or so pages of detail prepared by Profs Tom Calma & Marcia Langton for the Morrison government."

You judge for yourselves..... but do take the time and energy.

Where's MY Voice to Parliament? Am I out of line here?

Irrelevant detail which may or may not be reflected in the final outcome, depending on the whim of the government at the time.

We want to know what we are actually voting for.

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 2:44pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:38am:

I'm a pretty dopey old prick, so I have no idea what this actually means
in any sort of practical sense?

Quote:

"Do you support an alteration to the constitution that establishes
an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

What we DO need here is a referendum on becoming a republic

. The abos
are more than competent in establishing their own "voice"—whatever the
ferk that means.

That's the first thought that come into my mind, leave it till the republic comes about, then the whole constitution can be re-written to include everyone, plus many other changes relating to equal freedom for all, genuine freedom that is, not just Lib Lab freedom

Good way to poison the next republic referendum.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 6:00pm:

A referendum means the Australian public gets to decide, just as they did in 1967. Hopefully, just as in 1967, they will decide in the affirmative and refute the Racists and put them back in their places, under the rock from which they crawled. Roll Eyes

It is the racists pushing for the "aboriginal" voice in parliament. Why can you not see that?

Quote:

Albo thinks the voice will change things; he is wrong, but at least the existence of an enshrined voice will finally reveal we have a systems problem

How will it do that any better than the over-representation aborigines already have in parliament?

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« Last Edit: Jul 31^st, 2022 at 9:00am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 31417 Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #69 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 8:59am John Smith wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 5:20pm: I knew all the bigots on here would get themselves into a lather over this It would appear that all you have is to support identity politics & racial division in your virtue signaling. There's a massive gulf between woke Australia and the rest of us.
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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #70 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 9:00am

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 6:00pm:

A referendum means the Australian public gets to decide, just as they did in 1967. Hopefully, just as in 1967, they will decide in the affirmative and refute the Racists and put them back in their places, under the rock from which they crawled. Roll Eyes

You're the rock crawler

the whole exercise is racist

Aboriginals already have a Voice to Parliament.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #71 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 9:03am Quote: No way. My job is to have you feeling the pain of the ugliness of your dysfunctional neoliberal ideology Do you get paid for this job?
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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #72 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 9:07am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 6:41pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:38am:

I'm a pretty dopey old prick, so I have no idea what this actually means
in any sort of practical sense?

Quote:

"Do you support an alteration to the constitution that establishes
an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

What we DO need here is a referendum on becoming a republic. The abos
are more than competent in establishing their own "voice"—whatever thferk that means.

After listening to Albo's speech today, I'm going to vote in the affirmative....even though I don't believe in a separate "voice" based on race.

But I do believe in a voice for the voiceless, regardless of race.

And after the referendum is passed, it will soon become clear to everyone that a voice calling for "decency" (ie, overcoming entrenched disadvantage and poverty) will be ineffective, without a change to the current system of funding government via borrowing from private financiers...and taxes on private citizens.

I can hardly wait.

They are not voiceless & haven't been since the 60's.

Aboriginals have the same means/processes in place to be able to make representation to Govt as any other Australian.

The whole exercise trivialises/compromises the value & position of Aboriginal Politicians that have gone before & who are now members of our Parliament & Senate.

As you said there is no necessity for a voice to parliament based on race.

It is a divisive path to take.

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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #73 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 9:09am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 6:41pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 12:38am:

I'm a pretty dopey old prick, so I have no idea what this actually means
in any sort of practical sense?

Quote:

"Do you support an alteration to the constitution that establishes
an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice?"

What we DO need here is a referendum on becoming a republic. The abos
are more than competent in establishing their own "voice"—whatever thferk that means.

After listening to Albo's speech today, I'm going to vote in the affirmative....even though I don't believe in a separate "voice" based on race.

But I do believe in a voice for the voiceless, regardless of race.

And after the referendum is passed, it will soon become clear to everyone that a voice calling for "decency" (ie, overcoming entrenched disadvantage and poverty) will be ineffective, without a change to the current system of funding government via borrowing from private financiers...and taxes on private citizens.

I can hardly wait.

What?..... for it to fail?

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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #74 - Jul 31^st, 2022 at 9:13am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 6:56pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 30^th, 2022 at 6:44pm:

We don't need Abbos telling us what to do -
they've already received 100s of $billions in handouts -
that's already a good deal for them.

They can just shut up and hold their hands out for more free money

Albo acknowledged that today, and also noted the total failure of that money to close the gap....

Albo thinks the voice will change things; he is wrong, but at least the existence of an enshrined voice will finally reveal we have a systems problem, and point government in the right direction, ie changing the current neoliberal system which crushes those least able to compete in a market economy.

What makes you think Albo is going to do any better at closing the gap than previous Labor Govts?

It's just wokeness & virtue signaling at it's worst.

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Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?
YES 11 (28.9%) NO 27 (71.1%) Total votes: 38 « Created by: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM on: Jul 30^th, 2022 at 7:27pm »