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Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA) (Read 4326 times)
AusGeoff
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #30 - Jul 11th, 2022 at 10:05pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 30th, 2022 at 3:56pm:
You might like to check out this site mate...

Nasho Fair Go
.

Thanks, I never knew about that, it must be pretty recent

We were young blokes working at our regular jobs fresh out of our apprenticeships, then suddenly we found ourselves with high powered guns in our hands - made sense to some I suppose


Yes, it's only a couple of weeks old.  Currently has 800+ paid up members.

"Two years of their youth were taken from them with virtually nothing given back in return".


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thegreatdivide
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #31 - Jul 12th, 2022 at 12:17am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11th, 2022 at 5:38pm:
[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1656128750/28#28 date=1657448614]

We made drugs illegal did that stop people taking drugs?


No.

Quote:
Did this increase profits for drug dealers like Milton Friedman said it would?


Yes...one of the few thing Friedman got right, if he said it.......

Note: legalization of pot decreases criminal activity (and profits) 

Quote:
At 1 min 18 former NSW police minister says greater than 97% of all gun crime in NSW is done by criminals with illegal guns.


Not a good argument for allowing unrestricted access to all types of guns.   The US proves it.

Quote:
The Islamic terrorist who did the Lindt siege picked up an illegal pump action shotgun for $600 there have been quite frw shootings in Sydney going back a few years by criminals with guns that cannot legally be bought.


Addressed above. Japan with stronger gun laws than Oz,   had less than 2 dozen gun deaths in the last year; the US had 45,000....



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freediver
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #32 - Jul 12th, 2022 at 9:03pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 10th, 2022 at 8:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2022 at 9:43am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 28th, 2022 at 9:02pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25th, 2022 at 1:58pm:


It's MUCH more difficult to own guns in Oz (after the Port Arthur massacre...) 




Yes it's more difficult to legally own a gun after 1996 yet it has made no difference with obtaining illegal guns.




What makes you think that?


We made drugs illegal did that stop people taking drugs? Did this increase profits for drug dealers like Milton Friedman said it would?


You cannot get addicted to guns. Would you like to have another go at a rational argument?
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AusGeoff
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #33 - Jul 12th, 2022 at 9:25pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 28th, 2022 at 9:02pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25th, 2022 at 1:58pm:


It's MUCH more difficult to own guns in Oz (after the Port Arthur massacre...) 




Yes it's more difficult to legally own a gun after 1996 yet it has made no difference with obtaining illegal guns.


I couldn't find any data confirming this.    Links please.


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Mortdooley
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #34 - Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:50pm
 
Psychoactive Drugs Often Linked to Mass Shootings

The effects of psychoactive drugs should be part of the mass shooting discussion

BY MARTHA ROSENBERG TIMEJULY 16, 2022 PRINT

We do not know if Robert Crimo III, the confessed Highland Park Fourth of July parade shooter, was on psychoactive drugs when he murdered but we do know that police were called to his home for suicidal behavior and that he was remanded to the psychiatric system.

Mass shooters in the U.S. tend to be young, obsessive, male loners and many have been prescribed psychoactive drugs. For example, Eric Harris, one of the two shooters at Columbine High School in Columbine, Colorado in 1999 which ushered in the current spate of mass shootings, was on the psychotropic drug Luvox. Prescribing information for the antidepressant says, “Close supervision of patients and in particular those at high risk should accompany drug therapy.”

Jeff Weise who fatally shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and seven people at the Red Lake Senior High School in 2005, was on the well known antidepressant Prozac.

Two years later Cho Seung-Hui perpetrated the Virginia Tech murders and was also found to be on psychoactive antidepressants.

“We urgently need a national debate about guns. But we also urgently need a national debate about the epidemic of mood-altering drugs being prescribed to young Americans,” wrote Arianna Huffington in 2007 after the Virginia Tech mass shooting in which 32 perished.

The following year, in 2008, another university was targeted. Steven Kazmierczak fatally shot seven at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb. He had also been prescribed Prozac which he had recently stopped.

The BBC Questions Another Mass Shooter’s Medication
Few can forget the “Batman” shootings at an Aurora, Colorado movie theater in 2012. James Holmes, the gunman who fatally shot 12 and wounded scores, was on antidepressants. The suspicion among some reporters and doctors that the antidepressants explained the rampage was so strong, the BBC created an in-depth report entitled “The Batman Killer – a Prescription For Murder?” in 2017. “Why else would a clever, shy guy with no history of violence, from a loving home, carry out such a heinous attack?” except the effect of the psychoactive drugs wrote the BBC’s Shelley Jofre Holmes in the report. “He had no enemies, no terrorist ideology to drive him on.”

Dr. David Healy, a psychiatrist and psycho-pharmacologist who has written books about the risks of antidepressants studied Holmes’ case and interviewed him in prison. “These killings would never have happened had it not been for the medication James Holmes had been prescribed,” he concluded.

Dr. Wendy Burn, president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, on the other hand is quoted in the BBC report as disagreeing and doubting Dr. Healy’s pronouncement. “In all treatments—from cancer to heart disease—medicines which do good can also do harm,” she said. “Current evidence from large-scale studies continues to show that for antidepressants the benefits outweigh the risks.”

A Mass Shooting Spawned by Racial Hatred
Dylann Roof’s fatal shooting of nine parishioners at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in 2015 showed racism and gun violence at its worst. While the U.S. has seen other racially motivated and church shootings, the cold blooded calculation of Roof’s murders brought the nation to a new level of outrage and horror. Two years later, 19 documents unsealed by U.S. District Judge Richard Gergel revealed that Roof, too, was on antidepressants.

Two other mass shooting had preceded Roof’s murders. In 2013, Aaron Alexis fatally shot 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard in southeast Washington, D.C. where he had a security clearance. Less than a month before the killings, Alexis was prescribed the antidepressant trazodone.

The following year, 2014, Army Specialist Ivan Lopez, fatally shot four people on the Fort Hood military base near Killeen, Texas after a highly publicized Fort Hood shooting in 2009. According to the Washington Post, Gen. Mark A. Milley, the commander of Fort Hood, said Lopez “had behavioral health and mental health issues” and was taking antidepressants.

Sixty-four mass shootings have occurred in the U.S. since Lopez’ rampage eight years ago including the recent Fourth of July shooting in Highland Park, Illinois, according to a gun violence database.

Disturbing Psychoactive Drug Side Effects Are Well Known
Awareness of these unpredictable medications is not new.
Four days after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in 2012 when awareness of mass shootings reached a peak, Geoffrey Ingersol of Business Insider wrote that psychoactive drugs “the FDA pumped out [had] an ability to exact the opposite desired effect on people: that is, you know, inducing rather than inhibiting psychosis and aggressive behavior.” Antipsychotic drugs, which the Sandy Hook shooter was originally—and mistakenly—thought to have taken “are not the only ones that can cause the opposite of their desired effect,” observed Ingersol. “Several antidepressant medications are also restricted to adults, for the depression they inspire in kids rather than eliminate.”
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Mortdooley
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #35 - Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:58pm
 
For example, on prescribing information for Prozac a boxed warning, the FDA’s strictest, reads “WARNING: SUICIDAL THOUGHTS AND BEHAVIORS • Increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults taking antidepressants • Monitor for worsening and emergence of suicidal thoughts and behaviors.”

Psychoactive Drugs Are Often Behind Mass Shootings
Many and perhaps most health care professional dispute a link between mass shootings and psychoactive drugs. “I do not know of any research linking medications to mass shootings and in fact there is some work showing benzodiazepines decrease violence,” Michael Rocque, associate professor of sociology at Bates College told WUSA Chanel 9. “In other words, I would not be confident linking the medication to violence, let alone mass shootings.”

Some worry that such a link would eclipse the need to stop killers from getting guns or would stigmatize the mentally ill. Yet writing in the journal New Male Studies a few years ago, Jeanne Stolzer, Associate Professor of Child and Adolescent Development at the University of Nebraska-Kearney in Nebraska, observes that “despite the multitude of international drug regulatory warnings on all classifications of psychiatric medications citing adverse reactions such as suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation, violence, and psychosis, not one local, state, or federal commission has investigated the correlation between the mass shootings in America and the use of psychiatric medications.”

Clearly all mass shooters are not on psychoactive drugs nor do the drugs always cause out-of- control behavior. On the other hand, a 2019 article on the website Thought Catalogue lists and documents 37 mass shooters who were on psychoactive drugs when they committed their spree—a fact that should make public health and law enforcement officials take notice.

News reports seldom include information about shooters’ psychoactive drug use after a mass killing and we will likely not know about the psychoactive drug status of Fourth of July killer, Robert Crimo III. Still, along with discussion of gun laws, mass depression and anxiety, and violent movies and video games, the effects of psychoactive drugs should be part of the mass shooting discussion.


Combine broken homes, fatherless young men, violent video games and our Media with prescribed drugs to alter behavior and then try to blame the gun. That is just the last link in the chain, we should brake that chain long before it gets to the conclusion!
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AusGeoff
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #36 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 6:46am
 
Mortdooley wrote on Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:58pm:
...Clearly all mass shooters are not on psychoactive drugs nor do the drugs always cause out-of- control behavior.


Yes.  But we have to be careful not to imagine that the psychoactive drugs in
and of themselves were the ultimate cause of the mass shooting deaths.

The shooter's state of mind is hardly part of the equation.  The sole reason for
so many random, mass firearm deaths is the firearm.  Were mentally unstable
individuals prohibited absolutely from purchasing, possessing, or accessing
military-style assault weapons, America would see far less mass shootings.  And
the only way to achieve this is to completely stop the selling of these weapons,
ban them from private citizens, and introduce a buyback amnesty for current
owners.

I know that the gun nutters, the NRA, and the Republicans will scream the house
down, but at least that would prove Americans are genuinely serious about reducing
their horrific firearms death record.  Thus far, they have not shown that at all.

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Mortdooley
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #37 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 11:59pm
 
AusGeoff wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 6:46am:
Mortdooley wrote on Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:58pm:
...Clearly all mass shooters are not on psychoactive drugs nor do the drugs always cause out-of- control behavior.


Yes.  But we have to be careful not to imagine that the psychoactive drugs in
and of themselves were the ultimate cause of the mass shooting deaths.

The shooter's state of mind is hardly part of the equation.  The sole reason for
so many random, mass firearm deaths is the firearm.  Were mentally unstable
individuals prohibited absolutely from purchasing, possessing, or accessing
military-style assault weapons, America would see far less mass shootings.  And
the only way to achieve this is to completely stop the selling of these weapons,
ban them from private citizens, and introduce a buyback amnesty for current
owners.

I know that the gun nutters, the NRA, and the Republicans will scream the house
down, but at least that would prove Americans are genuinely serious about reducing
their horrific firearms death record.  Thus far, they have not shown that at all.




So, your solution is to heal mental illness by restricting the Rights of honest citizens. Who's their daddy? Did any come from intact families? 
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AusGeoff
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #38 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 4:15am
 
Mortdooley wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 11:59pm:
AusGeoff wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 6:46am:
Mortdooley wrote on Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:58pm:
...Clearly all mass shooters are not on psychoactive drugs nor do the drugs always cause out-of- control behavior.


Yes.  But we have to be careful not to imagine that the psychoactive drugs in
and of themselves were the ultimate cause of the mass shooting deaths...

So, your solution is to heal mental illness by restricting the Rights of honest citizens. Who's their daddy? Did any come from intact families? 


I'm sorry but I have no idea what your intent is with this comment. I didn't
say anything about "healing" mental illness, nor did I say anything about the
family backgrounds of mass shooters.

And I said nothing about restricting the rights of "honest" citizens. Can we
safely assume all citizens are honest when we sell them a gun? Can you
tell in 5 minutes if someone is honest?    What are your benchmarks?

What I'm saying is that it's impossible for anybody to judge the suitability of
an individual possessing a firearm.  In that case, the obvious answer is to ban
the private ownership of firearms for everybody. At least that would cut down
the horrendous firearms death rates in America.


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Mortdooley
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #39 - Jul 21st, 2022 at 10:52pm
 
Quote:
I'm sorry but I have no idea what your intent is with this comment. I didn't
say anything about "healing" mental illness, nor did I say anything about the
family backgrounds of mass shooters.


You should but I understand how you can not grasp the idea that the cure is to break the cycle that creates these copycat killers. A well adjusted young man does not decide one day to go out and kill as many people as possible because he can buy a rifle! Who are the roll models for these killers, certainly not a Father in the home to instill values.

Your culture requires obedience to government where everyone knows their place. We still want to believe our government works for us but clearly it represents everyone else and not the American people.
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Mortdooley
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #40 - Jul 22nd, 2022 at 7:53pm
 
Quote:
You do realize that not all honest, law-abiding citizens remain honest, law-abiding citizens don't you?


Yes, unjust laws are usually the cause. Great evils have been done in history because it was the law.
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #41 - Jul 24th, 2022 at 2:02pm
 
Mortdooley wrote on Jul 22nd, 2022 at 7:53pm:
Quote:
You do realize that not all honest, law-abiding citizens remain honest, law-abiding citizens don't you?


Yes, unjust laws are usually the cause.


Incorrect. Drug barons are a prime example.

Quote:
Great evils have been done in history because it was the law.


..and are still being done, as a consequence of the now obsolete 2nd Amendment which is responsible for an ongoing slaughter of innocents, as well as the not so innocent.   
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #42 - Jul 25th, 2022 at 12:05am
 
Quote:
..and are still being done, as a consequence of the now obsolete 2nd Amendment which is responsible for an ongoing slaughter of innocents, as well as the not so innocent.


The second amendment isn't the cause, the destruction of the traditional family unit and turning away from Judeo-Christian values is! Rifles with thirty round magazines were available decades before the Media created a platform for mass shooters to be recognized! Government isn't my master and the more it tells me to be defenseless against it the more I think I need the ability to resist! I know how obedient some populations are to their government but unlike you, our government wasn't created for the people to be obedient to it.
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #43 - Jul 25th, 2022 at 3:06pm
 
Mortdooley wrote on Jul 25th, 2022 at 12:05am:
Quote:
..and are still being done, as a consequence of the now obsolete 2nd Amendment which is responsible for an ongoing slaughter of innocents, as well as the not so innocent.


The second amendment isn't the cause, the destruction of the traditional family unit and turning away from Judeo-Christian values is!


So now you have shifted from blaming (faulty) law, for the evil in the world, to abandonment of "Judeo-Christian values".

Quote:
Rifles with thirty round magazines were available decades before the Media created a platform for mass shooters to be recognized! Government isn't my master and the more it tells me to be defenseless against it the more I think I need the ability to resist! I know how obedient some populations are to their government but unlike you, our government wasn't created for the people to be obedient to it.


All of which explains why the US has the highest rate of gun deaths of any rich country.


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Mortdooley
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Re: Gun Laws/Behaviour (Oz vs USA)
Reply #44 - Jul 25th, 2022 at 11:48pm
 
Quote:
(faulty) law, for the evil in the world, to abandonment of "Judeo-Christian values".


Criminals don't obey laws, that is why they are criminals. A lack of moral values leads to criminal behavior. There is no shifting of blame, it is all part of the same issue.
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