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Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke (Read 15613 times)
Frank
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #240 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 8:30pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 9:26am:
After Liberalism… the Deluge
Scott McLemee reports on Matthew Rose’s A World After Liberalism: Philosophers of the Radical Right.


“In theory,” he writes, “liberalism protects individuals from unjust authority, allowing them to pursue fulfilling lives apart from government coercion. In reality, it severs deep binds of belonging, leaving isolated individuals exposed to, and dependent on, the power of the state. In theory, liberalism proposes a neutral vision of human nature, cleansed of historical residues and free of ideological distortions. In reality, it promotes a bourgeois view of life, placing a higher value on acquisition than virtue. In theory, liberalism makes politics more peaceful by focusing on the mundane rather than the metaphysical. In reality, it makes political life chaotic by splintering communities into rival factions and parties.”
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/03/18/review-matthew-rose-world-after-...


Reading on....


Rose himself sounds deeply sympathetic to this line of critique—and so all the more concerned by how the radical right has assimilated it. Liberalism understands human beings as self-defining “through acts of individual choice and self-expression alone.” But in reality (the counterstatement runs) people are embedded in relationships, communities and traditions, and we require them to flourish. “The essence of our creaturely condition, as well as human happiness,” Rose says, is “that we learn to order these bonds to real human goods, turning the passions that weave the fabric of life into the virtues that clothe it with dignity.”

The author leaves it unclear just what political arrangements are implied by this moral project. But the far-right thinkers he discusses offer alternatives that, if not in perfect alignment with each other, share the mission of tearing up liberalism, of whatever sort, and salting the ground so that it does not return.

...


In the Clinton years, when I first read them, Benoist’s articles were sometimes translated for a journal called Chronicles, where the last figure in Rose’s lineup also published his work: the late Samuel Francis. His writings from that era made the emergence of Trump, or someone like him, seem inevitable. Francis did not drink the globalization Kool-Aid:

“What connected the welfare state, feminism, employment protections, school reform, and liberal internationalism?” Rose asks. “Francis’s undeviating answer was that they serve managerial power [exercised by a ‘new class’ of credentialed professionals] through a leveling process of ‘homogenization.’ They ensured that consumers had the same tastes, businesses operated in the same markets, students received the same training, and citizens held the same values.”

Like some of Benoist’s arguments, Francis’s perspective on corporate capitalism (and its handmaid, technocratic liberalism) sound left of center, although he infused them with enough nativism and white supremacy to avoid confusion on that score. “It is imperative,” Francis insisted, “for elites to challenge, discredit, and erode the moral, intellectual, and institutional fabric of traditional society.” And in consequence, deep pools of resentment were accumulating beneath the American political playing field’s well-manicured turf.


https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/03/18/review-matthew-rose-world-after-...
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #241 - Sep 25th, 2022 at 11:46am
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 5:49pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 3:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 9:26am:
After Liberalism… the Deluge
Scott McLemee reports on Matthew Rose’s A World After Liberalism: Philosophers of the Radical Right.


“In theory,” he writes, “liberalism" the free market protects individuals from unjust authority, allowing them to pursue fulfilling lives apart from government coercion. In reality, it severs deep binds of belonging, leaving isolated individuals exposed to, and dependent on, the power of the state. In theory, liberalism the free market proposes a neutral vision of human nature, cleansed of historical residues and free of ideological distortions. In reality, it promotes a bourgeois view of life, placing a higher value on acquisition than virtue (money before people) . In theory, liberalism the free market makes politics more peaceful by focusing on the mundane rather than the metaphysical. In reality, it makes political life chaotic by splintering communities into rival factions and parties.” (in dog eat dog free market competition)
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/03/18/review-matthew-rose-world-after-...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


Yes highly skilled at stupid for sure, not to worry about not reaching that standard                                  


Are you attacking my attempt (which I thought funny...) to change the author's  meaning of "liberalism", to "free markets", and hence to  "conservatism", the opposite of 'liberalism'  (given free markets are aligned wirh conservative politics)?
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Dnarever
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #242 - Sep 25th, 2022 at 12:19pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25th, 2022 at 11:46am:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 5:49pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 3:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 9:26am:
After Liberalism… the Deluge
Scott McLemee reports on Matthew Rose’s A World After Liberalism: Philosophers of the Radical Right.


“In theory,” he writes, “liberalism" the free market protects individuals from unjust authority, allowing them to pursue fulfilling lives apart from government coercion. In reality, it severs deep binds of belonging, leaving isolated individuals exposed to, and dependent on, the power of the state. In theory, liberalism the free market proposes a neutral vision of human nature, cleansed of historical residues and free of ideological distortions. In reality, it promotes a bourgeois view of life, placing a higher value on acquisition than virtue (money before people) . In theory, liberalism the free market makes politics more peaceful by focusing on the mundane rather than the metaphysical. In reality, it makes political life chaotic by splintering communities into rival factions and parties.” (in dog eat dog free market competition)
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/03/18/review-matthew-rose-world-after-...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


Yes highly skilled at stupid for sure, not to worry about not reaching that standard                                  


Are you attacking my attempt (which I thought funny...) to change the author's  meaning of "liberalism", to "free markets", and hence to  "conservatism", the opposite of 'liberalism'  (given free markets are aligned wirh conservative politics)?


Sorry TGD wasn't critical of you just on how nonsensical franks scramble of words were.

Even your explanation was too clever for me.

Didn't notice that you crosses out liberalism thus changing the meaning.

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« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2022 at 12:24pm by Dnarever »  
 
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Frank
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #243 - Sep 25th, 2022 at 4:42pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 25th, 2022 at 12:19pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25th, 2022 at 11:46am:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 5:49pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 3:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 9:26am:
After Liberalism… the Deluge
Scott McLemee reports on Matthew Rose’s A World After Liberalism: Philosophers of the Radical Right.


“In theory,” he writes, “liberalism" the free market protects individuals from unjust authority, allowing them to pursue fulfilling lives apart from government coercion. In reality, it severs deep binds of belonging, leaving isolated individuals exposed to, and dependent on, the power of the state. In theory, liberalism the free market proposes a neutral vision of human nature, cleansed of historical residues and free of ideological distortions. In reality, it promotes a bourgeois view of life, placing a higher value on acquisition than virtue (money before people) . In theory, liberalism the free market makes politics more peaceful by focusing on the mundane rather than the metaphysical. In reality, it makes political life chaotic by splintering communities into rival factions and parties.” (in dog eat dog free market competition)
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/03/18/review-matthew-rose-world-after-...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


Yes highly skilled at stupid for sure, not to worry about not reaching that standard                                  


Are you attacking my attempt (which I thought funny...) to change the author's  meaning of "liberalism", to "free markets", and hence to  "conservatism", the opposite of 'liberalism'  (given free markets are aligned wirh conservative politics)?


Sorry TGD wasn't critical of you just on how nonsensical franks scramble of words were.

Even your explanation was too clever for me.

Didn't notice that you crosses out liberalism thus changing the meaning.




Most things are too clever for you, ducky. But don't you worry your anatine little brain about not understanding -  it's all just 'extreme right'  stuff.  Waddle on.

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« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2022 at 5:40pm by Frank »  

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Dnarever
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #244 - Sep 25th, 2022 at 5:00pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 25th, 2022 at 4:42pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 25th, 2022 at 12:19pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25th, 2022 at 11:46am:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 5:49pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 3:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 9:26am:
After Liberalism… the Deluge
Scott McLemee reports on Matthew Rose’s A World After Liberalism: Philosophers of the Radical Right.


“In theory,” he writes, “liberalism" the free market protects individuals from unjust authority, allowing them to pursue fulfilling lives apart from government coercion. In reality, it severs deep binds of belonging, leaving isolated individuals exposed to, and dependent on, the power of the state. In theory, liberalism the free market proposes a neutral vision of human nature, cleansed of historical residues and free of ideological distortions. In reality, it promotes a bourgeois view of life, placing a higher value on acquisition than virtue (money before people) . In theory, liberalism the free market makes politics more peaceful by focusing on the mundane rather than the metaphysical. In reality, it makes political life chaotic by splintering communities into rival factions and parties.” (in dog eat dog free market competition)
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2022/03/18/review-matthew-rose-world-after-...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


Yes highly skilled at stupid for sure, not to worry about not reaching that standard                                  


Are you attacking my attempt (which I thought funny...) to change the author's  meaning of "liberalism", to "free markets", and hence to  "conservatism", the opposite of 'liberalism'  (given free markets are aligned wirh conservative politics)?


Sorry TGD wasn't critical of you just on how nonsensical franks scramble of words were.

Even your explanation was too clever for me.

Didn't notice that you crosses out liberalism thus changing the meaning.




Most things are too clever for you, ducky. But don't you worry our anatine little brain about not understanding -  it's all just 'extreme right'  stuff.  Waddle on.



Grin I just knew you would do that when I cast it into the Frank pond.
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Frank
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #245 - Oct 4th, 2022 at 12:39pm
 
...
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #246 - Oct 5th, 2022 at 11:50am
 
Frank wrote on Oct 4th, 2022 at 12:39pm:


Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.

He claims the Left used to support families and workers, but now they "want to replace family with government".

Er....the post war welfare state (1946-1980) WAS government; even Menzies created the Public Housing Department.

The post 1980s neoliberal era progressivly abandoned government, while globalization's benefits were unequally shared (hence the 1st world's "rust belt").

What a pathetix piece of analysis from Mundine; a comfortable 'personal responsibility' conservative.

THe rest of the article can be ignored  - GIGO - except by echo-chamber-seeking conservatives supporting  the CPAC.



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Frank
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #247 - Nov 22nd, 2022 at 10:43am
 

One thinks of Chesterton’s remark, apropos of Tennyson, that “He is only a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of the Conservative.” “All decent people,” Tawney proposed, “are at heart conservatives,”

in the sense of desiring to conserve the human associations, loyalties, affections, pious bonds between man and man which express a man’s personality and become at once a sheltering nest for his spirit and a kind of watch-tower from which he may see visions of a more spacious and bountiful land. All decent people are against a creed which tries such things by the standard of “utility” as though there were any end of life except life itself. What makes the working classes revolutionary is that modern economic conditions are constantly passing a steam roller over these immaterial graces and pieties, breaking up homes, casting venerable men on to the scrap heap because they are “no good,” using up children “for their immediate commercial utility,” and all in the name of material progress, that cotton may be cheap! They want the state to step in and put down these lawless vandals who judge human affection[s] by their effect on the money-­market. They want to “conserve” the home, the property, the family of the worker.


Yet Tawney’s target was far broader than the employers and landlords who made the lives of the poor a misery. He extended his denunciation to the whole of society, which was under the spell of a false god: “It is this demon—the idolatry of money and success—with whom, not in one sphere alone but in all, including our own hearts and minds, Socialists have to grapple.” It wasn’t just the big businessmen, bankers, and Tory MPs, but also Tawney’s socialist allies and—yes—even the men in the mines and factories, who had contributed to the present disaster by reducing politics to a matter of redistributing cash. The real problem with capitalism was that you could not love your fellow man as a child of God while using him as a tool for gain; and such a spiritual and moral outrage was not to be solved merely by raising wages.
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2022/12/a-twentieth-century-prophet
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #248 - Nov 22nd, 2022 at 1:12pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 22nd, 2022 at 10:43am:
One thinks of Chesterton’s remark, apropos of Tennyson, that “He is only a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of the Conservative.” “All decent people,” Tawney proposed, “are at heart conservatives,”


British empire delusion 'par excellence'.

All decent people seek a better world, ie, without war and poverty.  The 'conservative rebel' Tawney speaks of,  refers to the struggle for self-improvement, rebelling against mindless instincts.

Quote:
in the sense of desiring to conserve the human associations, loyalties, affections, pious bonds between man and man which express a man’s personality and become at once a sheltering nest for his spirit and a kind of watch-tower from which he may see visions of a more spacious and bountiful land. All decent people are against a creed which tries such things by the standard of “utility” as though there were any end of life except life itself. What makes the working classes revolutionary is that modern economic conditions are constantly passing a steam roller over these immaterial graces and pieties, breaking up homes, casting venerable men on to the scrap heap because they are “no good,” using up children “for their immediate commercial utility,” and all in the name of material progress, that cotton may be cheap! They want the state to step in and put down these lawless vandals who judge human affection[s] by their effect on the money-­market. They want to “conserve” the home, the property, the family of the worker.


See...all from the point of view of the individual, nothing about collective well-being which must be protected from the predations of the self-interested individual.

Quote:

Yet Tawney’s target was far broader than the employers and landlords who made the lives of the poor a misery. He extended his denunciation to the whole of society, which was under the spell of a false god: “It is this demon—the idolatry of money and success—with whom, not in one sphere alone but in all, including our own hearts and minds, Socialists have to grapple.” It wasn’t just the big businessmen, bankers, and Tory MPs, but also Tawney’s socialist allies and—yes—even the men in the mines and factories, who had contributed to the present disaster by reducing politics to a matter of redistributing cash. The real problem with capitalism was that you could not love your fellow man as a child of God while using him as a tool for gain; and such a spiritual and moral outrage was not to be solved merely by raising wages.
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2022/12/a-twentieth-century-prophet


Quite so; the 'spiritual and moral outrage' of capitalist excess can only be solved by introducing an above poverty Job Guarantee.

Your appeal to these 19th century thinkers is irrelevant, in our times. 
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #249 - Nov 30th, 2022 at 10:27am
 
Good interview, Petersen makes excellent points.



https://mobile.twitter.com/hugh_mankind/status/1597392347939028992
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Dnarever
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #250 - Nov 30th, 2022 at 10:37am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 5th, 2022 at 11:50am:
Frank wrote on Oct 4th, 2022 at 12:39pm:


Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.

He claims the Left used to support families and workers, but now they "want to replace family with government".

Er....the post war welfare state (1946-1980) WAS government; even Menzies created the Public Housing Department.

The post 1980s neoliberal era progressivly abandoned government, while globalization's benefits were unequally shared (hence the 1st world's "rust belt").

What a pathetix piece of analysis from Mundine; a comfortable 'personal responsibility' conservative.

THe rest of the article can be ignored  - GIGO - except by echo-chamber-seeking conservatives supporting  the CPAC.



The post


Quote:
Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.


No - He achieved that in the title.

Quote:
The rest of the article can be ignored


I am confident in taking your word for that, The second paragraph had already exceeded the time I will never be able to recover or justify limit.
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« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2022 at 10:42am by Dnarever »  
 
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Frank
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #251 - Nov 30th, 2022 at 11:01am
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2022 at 10:37am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 5th, 2022 at 11:50am:
Frank wrote on Oct 4th, 2022 at 12:39pm:


Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.

He claims the Left used to support families and workers, but now they "want to replace family with government".

Er....the post war welfare state (1946-1980) WAS government; even Menzies created the Public Housing Department.

The post 1980s neoliberal era progressivly abandoned government, while globalization's benefits were unequally shared (hence the 1st world's "rust belt").

What a pathetix piece of analysis from Mundine; a comfortable 'personal responsibility' conservative.

THe rest of the article can be ignored  - GIGO - except by echo-chamber-seeking conservatives supporting  the CPAC.



The post


Quote:
Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.


No - He achieved that in the title.

Quote:
The rest of the article can be ignored


I am confident in taking your word for that, The second paragraph had already exceeded the time I will never be able to recover or justify limit.

Cheesy

The response from you two fruitloops confirms just how right Mundine's analysis is.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #252 - Nov 30th, 2022 at 2:56pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 30th, 2022 at 11:01am:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2022 at 10:37am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 5th, 2022 at 11:50am:
Frank wrote on Oct 4th, 2022 at 12:39pm:


Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.

He claims the Left used to support families and workers, but now they "want to replace family with government".

Er....the post war welfare state (1946-1980) WAS government; even Menzies created the Public Housing Department.

The post 1980s neoliberal era progressivly abandoned government, while globalization's benefits were unequally shared (hence the 1st world's "rust belt").

What a pathetic piece of analysis from Mundine; a comfortable 'personal responsibility' conservative.

The rest of the article can be ignored  - GIGO - except by echo-chamber-seeking conservatives supporting  the CPAC.


Quote:
Well. Mundine reveals what an economic illiterate he is, right from the 2nd paragraph.


No - He achieved that in the title.

Quote:
The rest of the article can be ignored


I am confident in taking your word for that, The second paragraph had already exceeded the time I will never be able to recover or justify limit.

Cheesy

The response from you two fruitloops confirms just how right Mundine's analysis is.


Er..... Frank, care to address any ONE point I made about Mundine's analysis?

To repeat:

"He claims the Left used to support families and workers, but now they "want to replace family with government".

Er....the post war welfare state (1946-1980) WAS government; even RW Menzies created the Public Housing Department.

The post 1980s neoliberal era progressively abandoned government, while globalization's benefits were unequally shared (hence the 1st world's "rust belt"). "




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Frank
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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #253 - Feb 8th, 2023 at 6:02pm
 
The Meaning of Conservatism

Scruton's idea of conservatism – what in America we tend to call "paleo-conservatism" – might well shock the sensibilities of those American conservatives" who view it as little more than the workings of the free market. Conservatism, says Scruton, is neither automatic hostility toward the state nor the desire to limit the state's obligations toward the citizen.

Rather, conservatism regards the individual not as the premise but the conclusion of politics, a politics that is fundamentally opposed to the ethic of social justice, to equality of station, income, and achievement, or to the attempt to bring major institutions of society (such as schools and universities) under government control.

The conservative outlook, says Scruton, is neither outmoded nor irrational. On the contrary, it is the most reasonable of political alternatives. The evils of socialism, he maintains, lie precisely where its supporters find its strengths, and the conditions for the credibility of socialism have long since disappeared. Neither socialism nor liberalism can come to terms with the real complexity of human society, and both appear plausible only because they direct attention away from what is actual, toward what is merely ideal.
https://www.roger-scruton.com/articles/330-the-meaning-of-conservatism



Stand up for the real meaning of conservatism


Conservatives believe that our identities and values are formed through our relations with other people, and not through our relation with the state. The state is not an end but a means. Civil society is the end, and the state is the means to protect it. The social world emerges through free association, rooted in friendship and community life. And the customs and institutions that we cherish have grown from below, by the 'invisible hand' of co-operation. They have rarely been imposed from above by the work of politics, the role of which, for a conservative, is to reconcile our many aims, and not to dictate or control them.

Only in English-speaking countries do political parties describe themselves as 'conservative'. Why is this? It is surely because English-speakers are heirs to a political system that has been built from below, by the free association of individuals and the workings of the common law. Hence we envisage politics as a means to conserve society rather than a means to impose or create it. From the French revolution to the European Union, continental government has conceived itself in 'top-down' terms, as an association of wise, powerful or expert figures, who are in the business of creating social order through regulation and dictated law. The common law does not impose order but grows from it. If government is necessary, in the conservative view, it is in order to resolve the conflicts that arise when things are, for whatever reason, unsettled.

If you see things in that way, then you are likely to believe in conserving civil society, by accommodating necessary change.
https://www.roger-scruton.com/articles/267-stand-up-for-the-real-meaning-of-cons...

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Re: Noble conservatism - Edmund Burke
Reply #254 - Feb 9th, 2023 at 8:56pm
 
Uncancelled History with Douglas Murray.
The classics.



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