Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #360 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 10:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Nothing.

That's how much you know. Not what happens when/if the untried theory fails.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Sheer madness; the whole evil system should collapse of its own accord soon, as governments around the world begin falling over - while enriching private money lenders - under unsustainable public debt.

That's exactly what MMT is. public Debt. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Resources, not money are needed by the currency-issuer to build things.

Only in your nirvana like state. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Dumb mode again: dams are not ongoing floods;

They certainly can be. Look at the east coast currently. Dammed and damned.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

and clean mining practices are a matter of good planning and execution.

Yes. The government will do it. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

If it can't be recycled (like nuclear waste), then safe storage. Oz could safely store all the world's toxic waste, but there are many other sites around the world.

But you were saying it could be 100% recycled. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Nah.....I'll leave that to others, I want to see Dr. Saul Griffiths' plans for 'Rewiring Australia' (google) come to fruition.

Yeah. We know you don't do science. you just follow the latest "influencer". Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Not so fast; whoever insists on national sovereignty (and the absurd doctrine of "legal" war) above rule of international law, is complicit in the endless madness.

So international law should rule us all. Who is going to head this international law? You? The Russians. Chinese? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Instinct-driven irrationality is beyond politics.

Only to a leftist. Roll Eyes

.thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Er ...Trump's trade wars (ongoing) affecting friend and foe alike, are now...

Trump didn't shut down coal and oil. Trump didn't invade Ukraine. Trump didn't turn off gas to Europe. Trump DID warn Europe about relying on Russian fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Singapore has plans to import Pilbara sunshine, Japan to import Oz green hydrogen (ammonia) to produce green electricity.

Ah yes Plans. The Russian Nord Stream2 should show you the folly of undersea infrastructure. Roll Eyes

And you can't tell the difference between hydrogen and ammonia. H2 or NH4.NH3 Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

The possibility of the northern half of Oz being shrouded by cloud, and the entire Oz coastline being windless for 7 days is ......vanishingly small.

So not impossible then. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Dumb mode again....

Yes you keep showing your dumb mode. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Oct 15^th, 2022 at 6:43pm by lee »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #361 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:26am

lee wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 10:00pm:

That's exactly what MMT is. public Debt. Roll Eyes

Wrong, MMT avoids forcing government into the hands of private money lenders who must be repaid with interest.
You of course cannot explain why government, forced to pay living expenses of locked-down workers in a pandemic, should be required to borrow the money from private money lenders....as if only private money lenders should be privileged to create money.

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Only in your nirvana like state. Roll Eyes

Rationality versus irrational (instinctive) greed, again.. The basis of your world view. You can't build dams with money, you need materials and know-how.
Floods happen, dams or no dams.

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Yes. The government will do it.

Government funded R&D is necessary because the greedy profit seeking private sector is only interested in...profits.

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But you were saying it could be 100% recycled.

I'm saying we need to approach 100% recyclability, as far as possible.

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Yeah. We know you don't do science. you just follow the latest "influencer". Roll Eyes

..to rewire Oz...yes.

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So international law should rule us all. Who is going to head this international law? You? The Russians. Chinese?

Just as individual sovereignty ("freedom") must be subject to national law (to avoid chaos), so national sovereignty must be subject to international law, to avoid war.

International law does not encroach on national law as far as a nation's internal affairs are involved.

Therefore your statement: "rule us all" is simplistic nonsense.

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Only to a leftist. Roll Eyes

Wrong, only to irrational, instinct driven Neanderthals like yourself.

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Trump didn't shut down coal and oil. Trump didn't invade Ukraine. Trump didn't turn off gas to Europe. Trump DID warn Europe about relying on Russian fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

And Trump ("America First") did introduce tariffs on EU goods, lifting prices for everyone.

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Ah yes Plans. The Russian Nord Stream2 should show you the folly of undersea infrastructure. Roll Eyes

Nord 2 would have been a great piece of transition infrastructure to enable the EU to exit filthy coal.

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And you can't tell the difference between hydrogen and ammonia. H2 or NH4. Roll Eyes

Ammonia may prove to be a more practical way to export hydrogen.

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So not impossible then.

Power blackouts have always happened.

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Dumb mode

says the blind, irrational (instinctive) "freedom" ideologue; "dumb" is moot.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16438 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #362 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 12:37pm Just so much wrong with the whole post. An example - thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:26am: And Trump ("America First") did introduce tariffs on EU goods, lifting prices for everyone. So Trump introduced tariffs on European goods to the world? Your hyperbole gets you every time.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #363 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:57pm

lee wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 12:37pm:

Just so much wrong with the whole post. An example -

except you can't refute it.

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So Trump introduced tariffs on European goods to the world? Grin

No, the US was the EU's largest trading partner (might be China now, iirc); ie tariffs on EU goods into the US.

The issue is your vicious neoclassical orthodoxy responsible for trade wars and economic ruin around much of the globe...and the "endless war" economy. (see MMT #251,7,8)

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/255#258

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16438 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #364 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:57pm: The issue is your vicious neoclassical orthodoxy responsible for trade wars and economic ruin...and the "endless war" economy. (see MMT #251,7,8) The issue is YOU LIED. And your theory that nothing bad can happen from MMT.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #365 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 10:18am

lee wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

The issue is YOU LIED. Grin

Your dumb mode..or fraud, take your pick.

Making an issue over who was affected by Trump's tariffs, you fraud.

All following my praise for Keynes' 'clearing union' concept, which you brushed aside with " that was then, now is now".

You contemptible neoliberal "freedom" fraud.

Like those fools shouting WLM to counter the BLM protests; greedy private sector neoliberal market orthodoxy is responsible for the disadvantage giving rise to the discontent in both groups.

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And your theory that nothing bad can happen from MMT. Wink

It can't; MMT recognizes inflation as THE limit to money creation (in the public and private sectors combined).

Of course you can't address #361, being crippled mentally by your self-interested instinct driven 'survival of the fittest' ideology.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16438 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #366 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:40am thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 10:18am: It can't; MMT recognizes inflation as THE limit to money creation (in the public and private sectors combined). And how do they limit inflation? At what level? Stop printing money? A shock stop?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #367 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:17pm

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:40am:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/365#365 date=1665879483]

It can't; MMT recognizes inflation as THE limit to money creation (in the public and private sectors combined).

And how do they limit inflation? [quote]

Measure price rises, determine the reason for those price rises, and take appropriate steps to contain those price rises.

Note: not all government spending is inflationary.

Keynes' disposed of the "quantity theory of money" last century.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #368 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:17pm:

Note: not all government spending is inflationary.

That wasn't the statement. Government printing the money is inflationary and will create its own loop until a sudden cut-off. The ones holding the inflated dollars are those to suffer. Big government, big business can afford it. Joe Average can't. The only way to compensate is...print more money. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #369 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:05pm

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:17pm:

Note: not all government spending is inflationary.

That wasn't the statement. Government printing the money is inflationary

Same thing: government spending funded by debt-free money issuance is not always inflationary.

eg in a pandemic lock-down, provided the govt. spending (to enable non-essential locked-down workers to pay their essential ongoing bills) doesn't increase the money in private bank accounts, there will be no inflation when the lockdowns are lifted because there will be no extra money in workers' bank accounts for them to spend.

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and will create its own loop until a sudden cut-off.

Waffle; addressed above.

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The ones holding the inflated dollars are those to suffer.

Which means govt. must avoid "inflating the dollars", as outlined above. ie, ensuring private accounts do not exceed the economy's productive capacity.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16438 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #370 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 5:28pm thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:05pm: Which means govt. must avoid "inflating the dollars", as outlined above. ie, ensuring private accounts do not exceed the economy's productive capacity. Ah the gubmint will fix it.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #371 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:05pm:

Which means govt. must avoid "inflating the dollars", as outlined above. ie, ensuring private accounts do not exceed the economy's productive capacity.

Ah the gubmint will fix it. Grin

you are learning.... slowly...; certainly private greed will take us all to hell in handbasket, as the disadvantaged fall by the wayside and governments collapse under debt which "must be repaid (with interest)" to private money lenders.

Ellen Brown: A Monetary Reset Where the Rich Don’t Own Everything

We have a serious debt problem, but solutions such as the World Economic Forum’s “Great Reset” are not the future we want. It’s time to think outside the box for some new solutions

https://scheerpost.com/2022/05/04/ellen-brown-a-monetary-reset-where-the-rich-do...

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #372 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

you are learning.

I learnt the failings of Government ages ago. But you were the one saying there was no problem. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

Ellen Brown: A Monetary Reset Where the Rich Don’t Own Everything

Or anything. The loonies wet dream. Grin

And from Scheersh!t.com Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #373 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 10:59am

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

you are learning.

I learnt the failings of Government ages ago.

You deserve another pandemic or two....after which time government debt will be so vast your taxes will never be able to repay the usurious private money lenders to whom the debt is owed.

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But you were the one saying there was no problem

Back to front as usual. I'm the one pointing out the unsustainability of business as usual.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 40670 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #374 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 12:24pm
Back to top	Estragon: I can’t go on like this. Vladimir: That’s what you think. IP Logged