Australian Politics Forum - Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)

thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #15 - Mar 7^th, 2022 at 3:39pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 1:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

Note a pernicious thesis of classical economics:

unlimited desires in the face of limited resources.

But socialism suggests satisfying basic needs is possible, ie choices re allocation of resources can be made. Unemployment and homelessness are government choices, not some natural economic law.

Mainstream economics considers money to be a scarce commodity, it is not; whereas some resources may be in short supply at certain times, money need never be in short supply for currency-issuing governments.

The mainstream quantity theory of money is false, more money in the economy will cause inflation only if resource supply is constrained.

More money in the economy will create economic growth, not inflation, if available resources and productive capacity can absorb the extra spending.

Dear God you're full of nothing but googled shyte!

MMT was incorporated by Keynesian economics.

Keynes, in a letter to fellow economist James Meade written in April 1943, said of Lerner, “His argument is impeccable. But heaven help anyone who tries to put it across”.

Abba Lerner espoused 'functional finance' which was a forerunner of MMT, so in fact both Keynes and MMT are related to Lerner's 'functional finance' ideas.

But yes.....I can see what Keynes was getting at; money-is-a-scarce-commodity flat-earthers like yourself will always be difficult to enlighten.

As mentioned at the start of this Guardian article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/18/truth-money-iou-bank-of-en...

"Back in the 1930s, Henry Ford is supposed to have remarked that it was a good thing that most Americans didn't know how banking really works, because if they did, "there'd be a revolution before tomorrow morning".

That was during the GD of course, when unemployment was being prolonged unnecessarily by the Fed's monetary policies.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #16 - Mar 7^th, 2022 at 3:56pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 2:05pm:

"The post-Keynesian economist Thomas Palley said that MMT is largely a restatement of elementary Keynesian economics, but prone to "over-simplistic analysis" and understating the risks of its policy implications."

Palley himself here is guilty of "over simplistic analysis" of MMT, and overstating "the risks of its policy implications".

A debater needs to specify the points being critiqued, obviously.

And as for mainstream attacks on MMT, economist James Galbraith sums it up brilliantly:

https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/james-k-galbraith/whos-afraid-mmt

"Who's afraid of MMT?"

As anyone who has ever been responsible for legislative oversight of central bankers knows, they do not like to have their authority challenged. Most of all, they will defend their mystique, that magical aura that hovers over their words, shrouding a slushy mix of banality and baloney in a mist of power and jargon.

As a result, tormenting central bankers is great fun. John Maynard Keynes famously tormented Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England (BOE) from 1920 to 1944. Wright Patman and Henry Reuss, two US congressmen who chaired the House Banking Committee in the 1970s, did the same to Federal Reserve Chair Arthur Burns. I know that Reuss enjoyed it; I assisted him at the time.

In our day, the voices of Modern Monetary Theory perturb the sleep not only of present central bankers, but even of those retired from the role. They prowl the corridors like Lady Macbeth, shouting “Out damn spot!”

Hence we have Lisa, playing the role of Lady Macbeth, with her following remarks:

Quote:

It's just simplistic BS. So of course it blends in well with the multi troll Notsogreat who has spent weeks on here copying and pasting slabs of an online website re MMT.

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« Last Edit: Mar 7^th, 2022 at 9:57pm by thegreatdivide »

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Ayn Marx

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #17 - Mar 7^th, 2022 at 4:51pm

" - - - slushy mix of banality and baloney in a mist of power and jargon.”

The banking industry can be accused of that but to assume any branch of the much wider network of game players involved in currency/shares/bonds etc is honest or in full control of today’s market procedures is no more than wishful thinking.
Instance. Automated digital share trading, hybridised with a mongrel mix of totally opaque bitcoin trading is now beyond control of any single govt or financial institution. On the other hand some say it’s an improvement not having the lunatics run the asylum but who is ?

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« Last Edit: Mar 7^th, 2022 at 4:56pm by Ayn Marx »

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issuevoter

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #18 - Mar 7^th, 2022 at 5:32pm

"the West's demonisation of China" There, right at the git-go, you know the opinions are going to be propaganda. It's got nothing to do with MMT. It is about making the policies of the Chinese police state seem benign. Never mind an autocratic, secretive, extra-judiciary government whose number one purpose is to its own perpetuation. Never mind censorship, copyrights, and dumping. And don't mention the bogus claim that the above named government has some "right" to take Taiwan by force, because it happened to on the mainland.

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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #19 - Mar 7^th, 2022 at 8:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 3:56pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 2:05pm:

"The post-Keynesian economist Thomas Palley said that MMT is largely a restatement of elementary Keynesian economics, but prone to "over-simplistic analysis" and understating the risks of its policy implications."

Palley himself here is guilty of "over simplistic analysis" of MMT, and overstating "the risks of its policy implications".

Says who? You? A notorious multi troll who only knows how to Google? Pffft!

Next!

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #20 - Mar 7^th, 2022 at 8:52pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 2:05pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 1^st, 2022 at 4:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 1^st, 2022 at 8:12am:

Jasin wrote on Feb 28^th, 2022 at 10:26pm:

Black is the colour of Money.
The Black Market is the oldest in history.

Money is the oldest delusion in the world; it is always created out of nothing, yet people still think it's a commodity.

Quote:

Takes a Black Man to run an Economy for a billion little Yellow people. Cheesy

Geopolitical forces manipulated by self-interest have always pulled the purse strings.

But the money delusion's days are numbered.

Complete garbaga, again.

Money is a symbol of value. You could carry physical objects with you to exchange them for other physical objects but it would be cumbersome in the extreme. It is easier and better to have a unit of measure for the value of various objects and services and exchange that measure (money).

By your idiotic reckoning other measures - metre, hectare, ton, etc - are delusions because they are also ultimately random measures of real thing, length, adea, weight etc

It's Bwian googling his way into irrelevance.

I knew I'd seen his googled stuff before.

"The post-Keynesian economist Thomas Palley said that

MMT is largely a restatement of elementary Keynesian economics, but prone to "over-simplistic analysis" and understating the risks of its policy implications.

"

It's just simplistic BS. So of course it blends in well with the multi troll Notsogreat who has spent weeks on here copying and pasting slabs of an online website re MMT.

Please look up the googled links provided by Notsogreat.

They actually support my post.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #21 - Mar 8^th, 2022 at 11:13am

Ayn Marx wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 4:51pm:

" - - - slushy mix of banality and baloney in a mist of power and jargon.”

The banking industry can be accused of that but to assume any branch of the much wider network of game players involved in currency/shares/bonds etc is honest or in full control of today’s market procedures is no more than wishful thinking.
Instance. Automated digital share trading, hybridised with a mongrel mix of totally opaque bitcoin trading is now beyond control of any single govt or financial institution. On the other hand some say it’s an improvement not having the lunatics run the asylum but who is ?

Good points, you are referring to the financialization of capitalism which according to Michael Hudson will lead to the collapse of the US by mid century, as China's rise based on its real economy (infrastructure, industrial automation and AI) out-competes the US FIRE-based economy (finance, insurance, real-estate).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XvWoBhd7X4

As for Bitcoin: it is the ultimate expression of anti-government - 'individual-sovereignty' money, a 'fiat' currency based on......faith alone (in fact a ponzi scheme) . Whereas the value of sovereign national fiat- currencies is based on the nation's productive capacity (of real goods and services).

Interestingly Bitcoin can serve as an international currency (among those who have faith in it...) thereby by-passing national fiat currencies.

But governments are now in the process of regulating it, and are creating their own regulated digital currencies.

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2022 at 11:19am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #22 - Mar 8^th, 2022 at 11:48am

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 5:32pm:

"the West's demonisation of China" There, right at the git-go, you know the opinions are going to be propaganda. It's got nothing to do with MMT. It is about making the policies of the Chinese police state seem benign. Never mind an autocratic, secretive, extra-judiciary government whose number one purpose is to its own perpetuation. Never mind censorship, copyrights, and dumping. And don't mention the bogus claim that the above named government has some "right" to take Taiwan by force, because it happened to on the mainland.

You didn't listen to the podast.

The main purpose of the podcast (a presentation by Progressive Economics) was to examine MMT and its reception in the world; the references to China near the end of the podcast were merely a consequence of Steve Grumbine asking whether MMT is acknowledged in China (turns out the debate is raging there, as in the West).

The podcast had nothing to do with "opinions" about MMT but about the facts of MMT.

As for the reference to China: your ideological rant objecting to a reference to the West's containment of China being propaganda, is itself propaganda because of course the US containment of China is real; Biden has left no doubt: " China will not surpass the US on my watch", and he is throwing every anti-competitive tool at China that he can.

It's gonna get ugly.

Perhaps the OP's podcast - with its reference to China -was too wide ranging as a first post about about MMT, it caught my attention because I am interested to know if and how MMT is received in China.

[One might think MMT would find more fertile ground in China, because MMT envisions a degree of direct government involvement in money creation, rather than money creation via a wholly private sector-led economy].

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #23 - Mar 8^th, 2022 at 11:57am

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 7^th, 2022 at 8:52pm:

Please look up the googled links provided by Notsogreat.

They actually support my post.

Care to explain how?

Quote:

Says who? You? A notorious multi troll who only knows how to Google? Pffft! Next!

You still haven't outlined Palley's argument.
So far you all you have given us (as "professional" opinion) is:

"Palley says MMT is simplistic - case closed".

That's not debate, dear Lisa.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 10813 Gender:	Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Reply #24 - Mar 8^th, 2022 at 1:51pm For anyone in Tassie who wants to learn more about MMT: https://www.facebook.com/events/4873066192776250 APR 2 AT 9 AM – APR 3 AT 5 PM UTC+10:30 Rethinking Capitalism \| Hobart Weekend Intensive University of Tasmania - Sandy Bay campus
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #25 - Mar 9^th, 2022 at 9:33pm

Why do people fear the sovereign currency issuer creating and spending its own money, alongside money creation in private banks (or the central bank acting on behalf of the private banks)?

1. Might reduce the value of their own savings?

- not true, provided the money is spent only on what is available for sale.

2. Might inhibit the ability of the super rich to consume as they might desire, because the poor would have higher living standards under MMT and would therefore command a larger share of the nation's output?

- who cares, we don't need rich fools flogging joy rides in space.

Certainly the Left with their blind rejection of MMT are shooting themselves in the foot. eg Albo today (having learnt that you can't win elections by promising to increase taxes) saying he "wont start a revolution, just a renewal".

Meaningless twaddle.

Because as soon as he promises some extra spending, the Right says, "how are you going to pay for it?"

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 10813 Gender:	Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Reply #26 - Mar 11^th, 2022 at 2:20pm Mad as Hell's take on MMT... https://www.facebook.com/801729290/videos/1206132393125925/
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #27 - Mar 16^th, 2022 at 9:29pm

Sad evidence of Australia's declining per capita GDP, which began after the GFC, amid widening inequality:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=AU

The graph shows Oz per capita GDP peaked in 2013.

Actually the only countries I have found with continually rising per capita GDP since the GFC are the US and China; Japan has flat-lined since it's property bubble burst in 1990, and most other countries have flat-lined or gone backwards since the GFC.

The government can no longer afford to decently maintain (and increase) the social housing stock, or fund age-care packages, or the NDIS.

The pundits are saying rising Commonwealth debt (and interest payment on debt) will require higher taxes and/or lower spending in the future.

Doesn't stack up.

Of course the currency-issuing government should not be borrowing from (or taxing) private lenders in the first place.

Wonder how long it will take for everyone to wake up?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #28 - Mar 17^th, 2022 at 11:05am

MMT progress in the US:

(copied from twitter)

Austerity is Murder🌹#MMT🧨
@sdgrumbine
#MMT Founder
@RealProgressUS

@RP_In_Action

Host of @Cheesemacro

and The Rogue Scholar http://patreon.com/realprogressivesrealprogressives.org
6,617 Following
8,339 Followers

Jan 31, 2020
Some basics.

The US Dollar is a tax credit.
It is a unit of measure.
You can't run out of inches
You can't run out of numbers
The government can't run out of dollars...
unless it purposely, politically chooses to.

https://statuscoup.com/congress-has-plenty-of-money-to-protect-ukrainians-but-no...

President Biden announced Wednesday that the U.S. will provide war-torn Ukraine an additional $800 million in security assistance, spiking the total to $1 billion over the last week.

The money will provide more weapons including Javelin anti-tank and Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. The additional $1 billion comes after Biden just signed a new spending bill into law which provided Ukraine $13.6 billion.

Yet, President Biden announced the administration was running out of money to test, treat, and vaccinate people without health insurance. According to NPR, Congress declined to add to $22.5 billion in funding for additional COVID testing and vaccination, due to pushback from Republicans and some House Democrats who argued that the new COVID spending would take away separate funding that was promised to at least 30 states but hadn’t been spent yet".

From the NYT:

Uncertainty for Biden’s Covid Plan After Aid Is Dropped From Spending Bill
The $15.6 billion emergency aid package was stripped amid disputes over how to pay for it, injecting uncertainty into the president’s pandemic response plan.

Yes...austerity (due to the false narrative of a currency-issuing government having "no money") is literally murder...

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« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2022 at 11:25am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #29 - Mar 31^st, 2022 at 1:12pm

One economist's objections to MMT:

For example (this is also another one of my criticisms of MMT), MMT theorists have no idea about how other nations might react to an Australian Government pursuing macroeconomic policy in-line with MMT. Australia is a small, open economy that has a large portion of its economy reliant on international trade and international financial markets (our dollar being on the foreign exchange and our bonds being available for
purchase in international bond markets).

If other nations that were more economically conservative (or even just hedge funds and investment banks that trade our dollar) were to catch wind of Australia’s new macroeconomic policy direction and had concerns about Australia’s dollar devaluing, it might cause a speculative frenzy which could crush our currency and subsequently our economy. It almost ends up being a Game Theory type situation between countries. If one were to pursue these policies, they don’t know if they will be punished or not by other countries and financial markets. The payoff being large but the consequences also being large.

If you think of it from this perspective, it makes sense that policy makers play it safe and don’t pursue MMT macroeconomic policies as they don’t want to risk pushing the nation to the brink from a speculative frenzy on our currency and a refusal to buy our bonds.
It might be the case that governments talk a big game about a ‘balanced budget’ but then pursue MMT in secret. However, this would still be subject to significant risk if other countries were to catch on".

Note the highlighted: better utilization of the nation's resources, including permanent real full-employment, would not "devalue" the currency, but increase its value, because of the nation's higher and more stable output.

Admittedly there are global implications re resource mobilization and poverty eradication , so MMT will ultimately be part of achieving a better world, described here:

"We are individuals, driven by unconscious survival instincts common to all of us.
But to survive on a finite planet, we need to consciously aim for universal sustainable prosperity -which can only be achieved by global governance dedicated to achieving that goal.

Otherwise individuals will always form into groups dedicated to their own self-interest (driven by unconscious survival instincts.

So we need:

1. The criminalization of war via an ICJ backed by a UNSC minus the veto, dedicated to upholding the principles of the UNUDHR. (otherwise someone will always find a reason to go to war eg Putin in Ukraine, and Bush in Iraq.

2. The globalization of MMT, so that elimination of poverty is based on mobilization of resources, not money.

As for being "environmentally responsible" - some are, some aren't, so it's important that those who are, are the same ones in charge of environmental sustainability"

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« Last Edit: Mar 31^st, 2022 at 1:20pm by thegreatdivide »

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