Australian Politics Forum - ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜

Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10310 Gender:	Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜ Reply #75 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 8:56pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 3:33pm: Deng introduced some private enterprise Now it's nearly all private enterprise ... Chinese got rich at the expense of other Chinese ... that's against your socialist principles isn't it?
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Mortdooley

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #76 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:53am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 11:58am:

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 12:17pm:

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 12:02am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 12:54pm:

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 24^th, 2022 at 11:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 24^th, 2022 at 9:27am:

Mort you are full of contradictions. You like most Americans rail against socialism while enjoy the benefits of it. You drive on roads, cross bridges, travel by trains, go to hospitals when you're ill, send your kids to public schools, etc. all paid and maintained by government through collective action - ie "socialism". When are you going to stop? You Socialist! Roll Eyes

Public Works that build infrastructure isn't Socialism any more than a Nations Military. The job of government is to do those things that are not practical or possible to do at an individual level. However our government would be more efficient if the workforce were reduced to 10% of its current size. The reality of the federal tax system is that our taxes only pay some of the interest on the national debt, if our government had been able to live within its means we would not need to pay any income tax! Our Hospitals are not government owned and our Public Schools collect a heavy tax from all home owners to support them.

Public transportation isn't real practical here. The only Trains I have ever used were about 100 year old restored or reproduction ones for tourists. The only buses were also tour or transportation to a specific event. If I don't fly, I rent or use my own private vehicles. I never use public transportation.

What is socialism but "collective action", Mort? I am sure most hospitals/ schools/etc. take Government money when they need it. To pay for extra wings/classrooms/books/etc. You quite gladly use those facilities when the time is ripe, you Socialist! Roll Eyes

You really stretch to call something socialism, charities and the lottery seem to be socialist by your definition.

A non-answer, Mort. I am disappointed in you. Charities and the lottery are a marginal form of re-distribution of wealth, not very Socialistic at all... Roll Eyes

I never considered paying taxes as participating in Socialism, I pay a higher portion then some and less then others. We all have access to the same roads and bridges but I don't see that as an example of socialism.

It is a perfect example of it, if you really understood what you are talking about. It is "socialism" because it is a collective response. Ownership is vested in the collective. They are created by the collective, funded by the collective, all for the use of the collective. Socialism at it's most basic, Mort. You socialist! You cannot even recognise it for what it is. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

I understand your point, I just disagree with it. Taking fees and taxes from those who produce to pay for infrastructure everyone uses isn't socialism. Roads, bridges and government buildings don't belong to the citizens collectively. Whether City, State or Federal it all belongs to government.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #77 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:15pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 8:56pm:

Now it's nearly all private enterprise ... Chinese got rich at the expense of other Chinese ... that's against your socialist principles isn't it?

Yes....and the principles of the CCP also, which has recently reaffirmed its commitment to common prosperity by clamping down on funny money in the financial sector, real estate rent-seeking, and private education scams, etc; much to the derision of the West who are of course bleating about what this will mean for rich Chinese.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #78 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:24pm

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:53am:

Taking fees and taxes from those who produce to pay for infrastructure everyone uses isn't socialism.

"Those who produce"? Let's read on.

Quote:

Roads, bridges and government buildings don't belong to the citizens collectively. Whether City, State or Federal it all belongs to government.

And yet the citizens collectively all have equal access to this public infrastructure, regardless of who "owns" it (ie government, as you say).

Sounds like socialism.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #79 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:43pm

Frank wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 3:27pm:

Roman roads, baths, temples were fine ancient examples of socialism, 2000 years before Saint-Simon even thought of it.

But of course that is nonsense, just as Bbwian's idiotic equation of cooperation with socialism is complete nonsense.

Public infrastructure (whether funded by government or private enterprise) was made (is) equally available to all, regardless of personal wealth, hence socialism.

Of course Hadrian's fabulous villa at Tivoli, and the Great Pyramid built millenia earlier, were built by the ruler who WAS the state, and these were NOT open to the public, hence NOT socialism.

Funny to see you desperately trying to claim that co-operation at the level of the collective is not socialism.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72244 Gender:	Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜ Reply #80 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:46pm Mortdooley wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:53am: Roads, bridges and government buildings don't belong to the citizens collectively. Whether City, State or Federal it all belongs to government. Govt is merely a representative of the people.
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Frank

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #81 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:48pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:46pm:

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:53am:

Roads, bridges and government buildings don't belong to the citizens collectively. Whether City, State or Federal it all belongs to government.

Govt is merely a representative of the people.

Not under socialism, like China, Soviet Union, Nth Korea, Cuba etc.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #82 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:56pm

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

I never considered paying taxes as participating in Socialism, I pay a higher portion then some and less then others. We all have access to the same roads and bridges but I don't see that as an example of socialism.

But you do resent paying taxes, even for infrastructure that everyone has equal access to... which is why Biden's (who the idiotic Right are claiming is the most "socialist" president ever) infrastructure plan was cut by 50% before passing Congress.

The best public infrastructure is what socialists do, cf with the "private wealth amid public squalor" state of affairs which the US economist Galbraith spoke about.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #83 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 1:06pm

Frank wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:48pm:

{.......} (replying to: "Govt is merely a representative of the people)..

Not under socialism, like China, Soviet Union, Nth Korea, Cuba etc.

???

Whether government is by an elected, adversarial 2-party hyper-partisan rabble , or by a consensus, one-party meritocracy (with politicians chosen at the local level and moving up the ranks - based on merit - to the national level, as in China), government is the foundation of rule of law in the nation, and thus representative of the people.

Ideology does take us down rabbit holes at times...arguing about 'socialism' and 'representative'...

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« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2022 at 1:14pm by thegreatdivide »

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Brian Ross

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Re: ⮞⮞ Why Socialism NEVER Works ⮜⮜
Reply #84 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 2:07pm