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China says Australia is too weak (Read 27443 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #45 - Jun 10th, 2021 at 2:13pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 1:07pm:
Quote:
All empires have lost territory historically, why should the Chinese regime get back what it had historically? By that logic, the Mongols could demand their empire back, or the Japanese, or the British, or the Italians, or the Greeks, or the Persians etc... etc.. etc...


The issue is the passage of time. The Qing collapsed in the face of European technological superiority only 100 years ago. Now the tables have turned, and the democracy ideologues can't rampage through China in the same manner they did in 1900. 

And Germany lost German territory to Poland a lot later than that (after WW2), but the Germans have accepted the loss as the way history and the modern world works; or should Angela Merkel start coercing Poland economically or threaten them militarily to give it back?

Quote:
[China's regime] is not interested in empire,


Like hell they're not.

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aquascoot
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #46 - Jun 10th, 2021 at 2:31pm
 
north, germany has a very similar belt and road program they are rolling out thru europe .
spain, italy, greece now owe the germans so much for infrastructure that was forced upon them (to keep german construction profitable) that these countries can probably never service that debt
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #47 - Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:16pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 12:35pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 10:48am:
aquascoot wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 10:35am:
I don't like these analogies to Hitler and Stalin

He's not invading other Asian countries and African countries with Panzer divisions
He's inviting them with engineers construction workers and infrastructure companies

The ughir are not being gassed or worked to death in Siberia
I think the aim is to bring them back into the fold



Not yet he's not.... he's just laying the groundwork as Hitler did...


Xi wants to protect Marxist Chinese sovereignty from democracy ideologues. China would have to invade, eg,  Mongolia, to be compared with Hitler who invaded Poland. 
Protect it from democracy you mean... the greatest danger to government is democracy.


Quote:
Do the Uyghurs want to be restored to the fold?  Or don't they have any say in it .... say ... like the Jews and Gypsies etc just had to accept that they were natural born enemies of the state etc?


Separatist, terrorist ideologues, whether democratic or Islamic, are all the same self-interested fools  who would die rather than be part of a progressive cohesive society whose goal is the elimination of systemic poverty. Jews in Germany were not interested in separating themselves from the German nation. 
So the answer is they will be coerced whether they wish it or not...  thanks for answering.


Quote:
Hypothetical:-  What would YOU say if Tasmania wanted to secede
(given it's vast population of White Aborigines these days after the Wipeout ... you'd have to be a True G/A (god awful) Ninny to believe they made such a comeback... complete with rooskins .....)
???


God, talk about identity politics gone mad. The real analogy (eg, with Taiwan) is Libs losing the next election, decamping to Tasmania and declaring independence  from Australia, to maintain their policies...

Fair enough, but the analogy does include such a thing as Tasmanian Secession or WA secession.... the principle remains the same that they wish to go their own way according to their own perceived interests.


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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #48 - Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:17pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 2:31pm:
north, germany has a very similar belt and road program they are rolling out thru europe .
spain, italy, greece now owe the germans so much for infrastructure that was forced upon them (to keep german construction profitable) that these countries can probably never service that debt



Das Reich vill rise again!!!  Only better!!  Der autobahns haff set zer path for invasion.... vonce ve get rid off der Communists to der Ost ... ve do not vish anozzer schtab in der back vhile ve zivilise Europe!!
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #49 - Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:20pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 1:07pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 12:36pm:
Ah, no, I didn't completely ignore his comment, I was making the point that the militaries of all nations tend to be trained through the strategies and tactics that proved successful in a war previously won (or lost). As a Chinese regime shill, you would know that the 'cold war' being fought now is via cyber-attacks, something Hitler, Stalin and Mao did not have at their disposal. Bringing down the infrastructure of the enemy via a cyber attack is how the next 'war' will be fought at least in its first and maybe second act.


And the "third act"? You think those nukes will be left idle?
.. and what kind of an utter fool would rush to fire nukes first.. especially a fool with a dense population?


Quote:
All empires have lost territory historically, why should the Chinese regime get back what it had historically? By that logic, the Mongols could demand their empire back, or the Japanese, or the British, or the Italians, or the Greeks, or the Persians etc... etc.. etc...


The issue is the passage of time. The Qing collapsed in the face of European technological superiority only 100 years ago.
Your chance for democracy after getting rid of the corrupt ruling cliques and you stuffed it.
Now the tables have turned, and the democracy ideologues can't rampage through China in the same manner they did in 1900. 

Meanwhile Israel was recreated in Arab lands after 2000 years. ....without the agreement of the Arabs.

But you are right to the extent that since 1946, "the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible" ...EXCEPT  the "freedom" (individual sovereignty) ideologues forced the veto onto the UNSC, thereby  rendering it incapable of defending the new (post WW2) vision of an international rules-based system. ...

Quote:
The regime is doing nothing for the world with the BRI that does not ultimately serve the purposes of its want of monolithic world domination.


Nonsense as expected from a blind democracy ideologue.  China is not interested in empire, it is interested in global development because it benefits everyone  -  unlike the "America First" ideologues in the US who rendered the IMF incapable of international development. In contrast the Chinese actually build infrastructure.

Quote:
All Uighurs in mainland China are, by their ethnicity, suspected of being separatists (neo foreign devils).
Guilt by association... group guilt... absolute reversal of the rule of civilised law.  The West got rid of the loonies there, then the Japs, to help you on the road to democracy - and you stuffed it.



Some of them ARE separatist terrorist ideologues, like other islamist organizations in Africa, M.E. and Asia. 

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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #50 - Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:23pm
 
"The beginning of the Boxer Rebellion can be traced to the 1899 killing of two priests by two Boxer members visiting a German missionary in Juye County, China. In response, Kaiser Wilhelm II, the German leader at the time, dispatched German troops to the scene of the crime, which further angered the rebels."

https://www.facinghistory.org/nanjing-atrocities/nation-building/rebels-boxer-re...

Oh - and at the Peking siege the best Chinese fighters were Muslims fighting for the Qing dynasty .... now you eat them for breakfast.  Take a vote of the people in Xinjiang and see how it turns out.

Your blindness and hypocrisy know no bounds.  Are you some kind of student feeding on the pre-digested pap that passes for education these days?  One of The Lost Minds Generation??
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #51 - Jun 11th, 2021 at 11:32pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 2:13pm:
And Germany lost German territory to Poland a lot later than that (after WW2), but the Germans have accepted the loss as the way history and the modern world works; or should Angela Merkel start coercing Poland economically or threaten them militarily to give it back?


Germany, an advanced industrial nation,  suffered total defeat in WW2 (not  WW1...)

China  was  technologically inferior in 1850, suffering decades of humiliation by Europeans thereafter.... not annihilation in war, but British occupation in HK.   The government of the nation's  still largely subsistence agriculture economy in 1949 was decided in civil war,  in favour of communism. The government is reclaiming its territorial sovereignty.

Quote:
Like hell they're not.


You are projecting (look it up...).

Your ideology blinds you to the reality of US hegemony (and 'empire'); China has no interest in global hegemony, it accepts the US military industrial complex will be superior for decades to come. China is more interested in creating  world leading technology once again, in the context of global development via BRI and global trade (it is already the EU's largest trading partner.   


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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #52 - Jun 11th, 2021 at 11:58pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:16pm:
The ughir are not being gassed or worked to death in Siberia
I think the aim is to bring them back into the fold


Correct, and re-educate the fundamentalist terrorist separatists among them (terrorism, as they might imagine the Koran is saying). 
[qote]Not yet he's not.... he's just laying the groundwork as Hitler did... [/quote]

Xi is not Adolph, who hated Jews for their race, Xi has to eradicate Islamist terrorists, not the Uighur race.

Quote:
Protect it from democracy you mean... the greatest danger to government is democracy.


meaning democracy leads to anarchy....like the Capitol riots....

Quote:
So the answer is they will be coerced whether they wish it or not...  thanks for answering.


Of course: the Taliban will insist on their delusions unto death; controlled education is the only way to save lives.   

Quote:
Fair enough, but the analogy does include such a thing as Tasmanian Secession or WA secession.... the principle remains the same that they wish to go their own way according to their own perceived interests.


Yes, according to their 'individual sovereignty' and 'individual rights' delusions, they would rather the nation devolve into a series of local councils ruled by their own political ideology, because they think they will get richer...

China settled that question in a civil war. Now 1.4 billion Chinese are increasingly happy with their government, for making them all richer.
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #53 - Jun 12th, 2021 at 12:21am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:20pm:
.. and what kind of an utter fool would rush to fire nukes first.. especially a fool with a dense population?


So.....The US cripples China in a cyber attack. China says OK you win? ....or vice-versa....(even less likely the US would back off...)

Quote:
The regime is doing nothing for the world with the BRI that does not ultimately serve the purposes of its want of monolithic world domination.


So you say. But in the meantime Africa and elsewhere are getting roads, rail, and bridges, all vital infrastructure for economic development, which the IMF failed to initiate.

Quote:
Guilt by association... group guilt... absolute reversal of the rule of civilised law.  The West got rid of the loonies there, then the Japs, to help you on the road to democracy - and you stuffed it.


"Rule of civilized law" needs to be replaced by an international rules based system based on a UNSC without veto. And a one-party meritocracy might prove to be a better governance  model than an adversarial  two party democracy. Leave China alone, have the courage of your convictions and see how the two systems compete in the next decade....



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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #54 - Jun 12th, 2021 at 6:26am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12th, 2021 at 12:21am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 10th, 2021 at 7:20pm:
.. and what kind of an utter fool would rush to fire nukes first.. especially a fool with a dense population?


So.....The US cripples China in a cyber attack. China says OK you win? ....or vice-versa....(even less likely the US would back off...)
On recent history - rather the other way around.


Quote:
The regime is doing nothing for the world with the BRI that does not ultimately serve the purposes of its want of monolithic world domination.


So you say. But in the meantime Africa and elsewhere are getting roads, rail, and bridges, all vital infrastructure for economic development, which the IMF failed to initiate.
Actually I didn't say that - but all such deals come with a price.


Quote:
Guilt by association... group guilt... absolute reversal of the rule of civilised law.  The West got rid of the loonies there, then the Japs, to help you on the road to democracy - and you stuffed it.


"Rule of civilized law" needs to be replaced by an international rules based system based on a UNSC without veto. And a one-party meritocracy might prove to be a better governance  model than an adversarial  two party democracy. Leave China alone, have the courage of your convictions and see how the two systems compete in the next decade.... 
Meaning you expect all men to be held guilty for a single rape, or all women held guilty for a single child murder - Good-o.. it is clear you do not understand the concept of group or corporate guilt as allocated to an entire group for a single event.

China has deep flaws socially and economically and such things are never fully subject to total control by a centralised government. Cut off from the world by the reaction to its expansionism means a collapse.






Your elucidation is proceeding, Grasshopper...
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #55 - Jun 12th, 2021 at 9:25pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 12th, 2021 at 6:26am:
Actually I didn't say that - but all such deals come with a price.
.

You said the BRI was a cover for Chinese world domination. it is not. Meanwhile you are worried about the cost of infrastructure to you but you don't need to worry about  that, because the necessary resources and know- how  don't need to affect your money (see MMT). That's also why the IMF has been missing in action.


Quote:
]Meaning you expect all men to be held guilty for a single rape, or all women held guilty for a single child murder - Good-o.. it is clear you do not understand the concept of group or corporate guilt as allocated to an entire group for a single event.


Your delusional "individual rights" ideology makes you complicit in the slaughter of children in war. The only way you can escape that reality is to support abolishing the UNSC veto power, and criminalize war between nations.

A single rape by a single individual is not analogous to a nation's military murdering children, as collateral damage or deliberately.

Quote:
China has deep flaws socially and economically and such things are never fully subject to total control by a centralised government. Cut off from the world by the reaction to its expansionism means a collapse.


Expansionism? Biden is trying to woo Putin despite the Russian reclamation of Crimea.

Biden told Blinken to phone Xi a couple of days ago. Guess what, the US  re-affirmed the One China principle, even though a fool of a US general recently said HK has a right to 'independence'. ditto for Taiwan.

As for problems in China, the fastest development in history has won considerable national support. Meanwhile you need to get your own house in order.,,,eg the highest prison population in the world, in the Land of the Free, the Beacon of the World etc etc....

Quote:
Your elucidation is proceeding, Grasshopper...


Unfortunately yours isn't.....
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2021 at 9:31pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #56 - Jun 13th, 2021 at 12:59am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12th, 2021 at 9:25pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 12th, 2021 at 6:26am:
Actually I didn't say that - but all such deals come with a price.
.

You said the BRI was a cover for Chinese world domination. it is not. Meanwhile you are worried about the cost of infrastructure to you but you don't need to worry about  that, because the necessary resources and know- how  don't need to affect your money (see MMT). That's also why the IMF has been missing in action.

I believe you'll find someone else said that, but it is confused in all the quoting going on... now that you mention it, the BRI IS a cover for world domination... though what I said was that like the autobahns their purpose is not peaceful but rather to provide ability to move materiel and troops quickly.



Quote:
]Meaning you expect all men to be held guilty for a single rape, or all women held guilty for a single child murder - Good-o.. it is clear you do not understand the concept of group or corporate guilt as allocated to an entire group for a single event.


Your delusional "individual rights" ideology makes you complicit in the slaughter of children in war. The only way you can escape that reality is to support abolishing the UNSC veto power, and criminalize war between nations.

A single rape by a single individual is not analogous to a nation's military murdering children, as collateral damage or deliberately.

Quote:
China has deep flaws socially and economically and such things are never fully subject to total control by a centralised government. Cut off from the world by the reaction to its expansionism means a collapse.


Expansionism? Biden is trying to woo Putin despite the Russian reclamation of Crimea.

Biden told Blinken to phone Xi a couple of days ago. Guess what, the US  re-affirmed the One China principle, even though a fool of a US general recently said HK has a right to 'independence'. ditto for Taiwan.

As for problems in China, the fastest development in history has won considerable national support. Meanwhile you need to get your own house in order.,,,eg the highest prison population in the world, in the Land of the Free, the Beacon of the World etc etc....

Quote:
Your elucidation is proceeding, Grasshopper...


Unfortunately yours isn't.....


Happy to be of service..... you ARE some student, aren't you?  China has the second highest rate of incarceration in the world... - they tend more towards simple solutions such as a bullet to the back of the head for 'bandits'...

I'm not in the US..... you ARE a lost soul....
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #57 - Jun 13th, 2021 at 2:36pm
 
... and now for the slam dunk..... a try and conversion in the dying seconds of this game has put the Grappler Giants at the head of the competition...

https://au.news.yahoo.com/ready-australia-warned-about-chinas-grey-zone-war-0339...

"Taiwan’s Foreign Minister has issued a stark warning about the potential of China launching a war against Australia.

Dr Joseph Wu spoke to The Weekend Australian and said China was preparing for war and "we all need to be ready for that".

"The new phenomenon we are seeing is part of what I would describe as China's 'grey zone' operations, where it sends in its maritime militia – large fishing boats armed, operated and following the orders of China’s navy – to harass and intimidate their perceived enemies," he said.

"This is something Australia hasn't experienced yet – but it is coming."

Operating in the "grey zone" allows China to deploy armed forces to foreign territory, The Weekend Australia reported, though Beijing denies the existence of the militia.

However, this isn't the first time Dr Wu has spoken about such activities.

Speaking to Britain's Sky News earlier this year, he said the military threat from China was growing through "misinformation campaigns, hybrid warfare, and... grey zone activities".

"And all these seem to be preparing for their final military assault against Taiwan," Dr Wu told Sky back in April.

"This is our country, this is our people and this is our way of life. We will defend ourselves to the very end."

China has utilised the tactic in the South China Sea, however Dr Wu warned the country could spread beyond and closer to Australia in the Pacific.

He pointed out in 2019, China re-established diplomatic relations with the Solomon Islands for military purposes, adding this is something everyone needs to "pay close attention to".

Like Australia, Taiwan has seen tensions heighten between China and Dr Wu added war is a legitimate possibility which could spell disaster, not just for Taiwan, but the rest of the world.

Australian Strategic Policy Institute executive director Peter Jennings confirmed to The Weekend Australian Dr Wu's concerns over "grey zone" warfare were legitimate.

"We've known for years now that there's been a Chinese military interest in seeing if they couldn't establish some type of base in the Pacific region," he said.

"Given the sort of spread of Chinese interests in the region, that’s definitely going to start to encroach on Australian waters, probably starting around Papua New Guinea."
China discussed by G7 leaders

G7 leaders have reached consensus on the need for a shared approach to China selling exports at unfairly low prices and to human rights abuses, a senior official in US President Joe Biden's administration says.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the leaders of the Group of Seven world's largest advanced economies had also agreed on the need to coordinate on supply chain resilience to ensure democracies are supporting each other.

"I would say there was unanimity in terms of a willingness to call out human rights abuses and violations of fundamental freedoms that invoke our shared values," the official said.

"There was commitment to take action in response to what we're seeing."

The official said the G7 had moved far from three years ago when the final communique made no mention of China.

Under the legal structure of the World Trade Organisation, the designation of China as a "non-market economy" allows its trading partners, including the US, to use a special framework to determine whether China's exports are being sold at unfairly low prices and, if that is found to be the case, to apply additional anti-dumping duties."
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #58 - Jun 15th, 2021 at 11:50am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 13th, 2021 at 12:59am:
Happy to be of service..... you ARE some student, aren't you?  China has the second highest rate of incarceration in the world... - they tend more towards simple solutions such as a bullet to the back of the head for 'bandits'...

I'm not in the US..... you ARE a lost soul....


Well, Chinese authoritarianism  locks up fewer people than US democracy, wherever you are.

And your delusional individual sovereignty ideology will be forced to face reality, as China becomes the world's biggest economy, with the support and pride of 1.4 billion Chinese people. You will be begging the UNSC to get rid of the veto....
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Re: China says Australia is too weak
Reply #59 - Jun 15th, 2021 at 11:56am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2021 at 11:50am:
Well, Chinese authoritarianism  locks up fewer people than US democracy, wherever you are.

Well... You can't know that... The Chinese regime either refuses to release stats at all or manipulates them... Any dissent against the official regime line is brutally dealt with.
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