Australian Politics Forum - Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #240 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:08pm

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:02pm:

So in effect, those close friends, + her family + her lawyer, all supported an investigation. She is not some random stranger from the street who has no relation to Mr Porter at all. And that is a sticking problem. There are not enough evidence so far to say that he is guilt or not guilty. But it is enough to shake the confidence in the position of Attorney General - and that is the problem.

Yes, all prospective parliamentarians must take into account that, if they're elected to public office, they will no longer be private citizens and will be held to a higher standard. There's no escaping that and neither should there be.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape. Reply #241 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:11pm .
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape. Reply #242 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:12pm .
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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8424 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape. Reply #243 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm Trial by media and public opinion is never a good thing. Lindy and Michael Chamberlain say Hi.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape. Reply #244 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:16pm Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm: Trial by media and public opinion is never a good thing. Lindy and Michael Chamberlain say Hi. Michael? From the grave?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #245 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:33pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:51am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:39am:

Others, including my good self, have called for an independent body to accept and consider such complaints in the political sphere and handle them properly, arriving at giving an issue over to police if it is warranted.

Reporting of acts of misconduct or crimes must be reported to the appropriate authorities that already exist. Misconduct is handled by state commissions and criminal activities are required to be reported to the police.

MPs or parliamentary staff should never be allowed to handle/assess the complaint except to refer it to the relevant authority immediately.

As for the so-called 'court of public opinion'... It's interesting what it led to in the Lindy Chamberlain affair... A disgusting 'trial by media' which has been a stain on Australia's reputation since long before social media became the monster it is.

So far I haven't read anything about the Chamberlain affair as a cautionary reminder to all Australians of what mob rule is really all about.

Having said that, I think a parliamentarians must accept that they will and should always be held to higher standards than a private citizen.

Read my whole blurb - I'm just laying out the possibilities that I see - and at the end of the day, basically discounting them all. Jet give me time to work up to it fully... I like to spoon feed some here... give the a chance to bite first, then settle them down..

What I see as valid is a proper set of protocols for handling situations such as the Higgins affair... not just an ad hoc resolution of it by the minister/senior public servant concerned...

There are many things about the Higgins Affair that need a close look.... and some immediate changes are obvious...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Jest

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #246 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:08pm

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:45am:

Jest wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:28am:

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 8:56am:

Anyway.... setting aside issues of feminism, I think we are currently at an important cross roads in terms of rule of law in this country.

On one hand, we have some serious accusation leveled against none other than the Attorney General - the man who supposed to appointment judges to courts to uphold the rule of law in the country. It is from an accuser who have died, and so the police investigation cannot proceed. It is very different to the case of Bill Shorten, who had to talk to the police a number of times, with a living accuser, and the police at the end concludes that there is no case. So there is always going to be a doubt there in the minds of general population. Wether or not these doubts are founded or unfounded it does not matter, but what it matters is that it is potentially undermining confidence in our court system, especially from genuine victims of crime. And this is a glaring issue that will not go away.

That said, you may ask, do I support an independent investigation? Well.. I am not sure either. Because if we do so, it may sound legitimate, however, that means we are risking creating a separate system of judge and jury under the whines of our politicians, and not our court system as it should be.

The other side of the coin to what I have highlighted is that if an Inquiry is called on the flimsy case against Porter (her former solicitors and the experts advising the police are saying there is insufficient admissible evidence) it will also undermine confidence in our criminal justice processes. Many see the persistent calls for an Inquiry as a muck raking campaign for political purposes and a direct assult on the rule of law and our rights under the criminal justice system.

And the other issue is the legitimacy of such Inquiry, and what will the parameters of assessment for it - i.e. would it work on the principle of beyond reasonable doubt, or by reasonable probability. The inquiry will not doubt be open, and there be evidences submitted that would go both ways depending on our personal interpretation. This is then becomes a 'show court', a moral court, and it goes against our court system. It is probably not fair to Mr Porter, even if he is the perpetrator.

I think the best possible way out for the government, is for Mr Porter to personally stand down from his position.

You had me as a fellow traveller all the way to the part where you say he should stand down. Did you mean it would be the right thing for him to do or that it would be a way of defusing things for the Govt. Pdersonally I think iot would be the wrong thing to do because there'd be no end to the harassments that would follow to force resignations. It just feels wrong to me.

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Jest

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #247 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:17pm

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:02pm:

Jest wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:12am:

Neferti wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 10:42am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 10:34am:

Neferti wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 10:20am:

I thought that YOUR ABC had already judged him a Rapist? No inquest required. YOUR ABC is always right! Roll Eyes

Accused Rapist???

The person has passed and her friends do say that she was inclined to exaggerate things, which people with Bipolar tend to do. Undecided

But her other long term friends, including those in the same debating team stand by their belief in the truth of their friend’s account based on her demeanour when describing her claims in 2019. And plus, according to reports, she had talked to the police 4 to 5 times prior to her death. If she is obviously incapacitated with mental health, then the police would probably refer her to mental health at the start.

is that the first time she told her friends in 2019? Do you have any info on that?

I have only got that information from the age.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/we-are-not-out-to-destroy-anyone-woman-s-friends-back-inquiry-into-porter-rape-allegations-20210304-p577vf.html

It says:

o Dyer, who was a debater with the woman in the late 1980s, knew a cohort of seven national school champion debaters from that time, which included Mr Porter and the deceased woman. She said the five others in that group all believed the woman when she told them her story decades later.

Lawyers for the family of the woman, who took her own life last year, issued a statement on Thursday expressing the family’s grief, asking for privacy and endorsing an investigation.

“They are supportive of any inquiry which would potentially shed light on the circumstances surrounding the deceased’s passing,” the statement reads.

So in effect, those close friends, + her family + her lawyer, all supported an investigation. She is not some random stranger from the street who has no relation to Mr Porter at all. And that is a sticking problem. There are not enough evidence so far to say that he is guilt or not guilty. But it is enough to shake the confidence in the position of Attorney General - and that is the problem.

I cant agree with this last bit. The more I read the allegation the weaker it gets. She didnt tell her friends until decades later? As I say the credible evidence is so weak that to hold an enquiry would be a gross abuse of process IMO and undermine confidence in the system for many more people IMO

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape. Reply #248 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:20pm Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm: Trial by media and public opinion is never a good thing. Lindy and Michael Chamberlain say Hi. and now trial by public forums.....the media destroys people there seems to be no shame ...anywhere..
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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #249 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:21pm

cods wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:20pm:

Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Trial by media and public opinion is never a good thing.

Lindy and Michael Chamberlain say Hi.

and now trial by public forums.....the media destroys people there seems to be no shame ...anywhere..

Indeed, well if the rapist shoe fits.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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cods

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #250 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:27pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:21pm:

cods wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:20pm:

Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Trial by media and public opinion is never a good thing.

Lindy and Michael Chamberlain say Hi.

and now trial by public forums.....the media destroys people there seems to be no shame ...anywhere..

Indeed, well if the rapist shoe fits.

not if the police have closed the case...and the alleged victim is no longer with us...

a few good men have been destroyed by false claims

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #251 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:28pm

cods wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:27pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:21pm:

cods wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:20pm:

Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Trial by media and public opinion is never a good thing.

Lindy and Michael Chamberlain say Hi.

and now trial by public forums.....the media destroys people there seems to be no shame ...anywhere..

Indeed, well if the rapist shoe fits.

not if the police have closed the case...and the alleged victim is no longer with us...

a few good men have been destroyed by false claims

E.g.?

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Neferti

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #252 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:30pm

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 11:12am:

Neferti wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 10:42am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 10:34am:

Neferti wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 10:20am:

I thought that YOUR ABC had already judged him a Rapist? No inquest required. YOUR ABC is always right! Roll Eyes

Accused Rapist???

The person has passed and her friends do say that she was inclined to exaggerate things, which people with Bipolar tend to do. Undecided

But her other long term friends, including those in the same debating team stand by their belief in the truth of their friend’s account based on her demeanour when describing her claims in 2019. And plus, according to reports, she had talked to the police 4 to 5 times prior to her death. If she is obviously incapacitated with mental health, then the police would probably refer her to mental health at the start.

If she was Bipolar and off her meds (which they tend to do, periodically) she could say anything.

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Jest

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #253 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:31pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:08pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:02pm:

So in effect, those close friends, + her family + her lawyer, all supported an investigation. She is not some random stranger from the street who has no relation to Mr Porter at all. And that is a sticking problem. There are not enough evidence so far to say that he is guilt or not guilty. But it is enough to shake the confidence in the position of Attorney General - and that is the problem.

Yes, all prospective parliamentarians must take into account that, if they're elected to public office, they will no longer be private citizens and will be held to a higher standard. There's no escaping that and neither should there be.

Holding parliamentarians to a higher standard is not really the issue IMO. Its the ability we now have in the social media age to crucify any politician and bring down any govt via the court of public opinion by a well orchestrated political campaign, even on the flimsiest of evidence as is the case here IMO. That ability has always been there but in the age of social media its multiple times more effective. I think we will discover very soon that it will make our current political system unworkable

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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aquascoot

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Re: Christian Porter the m.p accused of rape.
Reply #254 - Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:37pm

Jest wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:08pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Mar 5^th, 2021 at 12:02pm:

So in effect, those close friends, + her family + her lawyer, all supported an investigation. She is not some random stranger from the street who has no relation to Mr Porter at all. And that is a sticking problem. There are not enough evidence so far to say that he is guilt or not guilty. But it is enough to shake the confidence in the position of Attorney General - and that is the problem.

Yes, all prospective parliamentarians must take into account that, if they're elected to public office, they will no longer be private citizens and will be held to a higher standard. There's no escaping that and neither should there be.

Holding parliamentarians to a higher standard is not really the issue IMO. Its the ability we now have in the social media age to crucify any politician and bring down any govt via the court of public opinion by a well orchestrated political campaign, even on the flimsiest of evidence as is the case here IMO. That ability has always been there but in the age of social media its multiple times more effective. I think we will discover very soon that it will make our current political system unworkable

agree totally

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Poll
Question: In The Court Of Public Opinion Porter Is
* This poll has now closed *
Innocent 1 (50.0%) Guilty 0 (0.0%) Not Sure 1 (50.0%) Total votes: 2 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Jan 20^th, 2022 at 9:20am »