Australian Politics Forum - direct democracy

freediver

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direct democracy
Jan 11^th, 2021 at 7:25am

John's version.

Does anyone else see a problem with this?

John Smith wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 10:19am:

Bring in a form of Direct democray, where the representatives have no choice but vote according to the majority of their constituents ........... not the parties bidding, not their donors. Then parties become obsolete.

John Smith wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 10:47am:

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 10:44am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 10:42am:

I'm suggesting I vote, along with everyone else in my electorate who wishes to vote on a particular bill (through an app would be the easiest method), and the MP representing us has to in parliament vote according to the outcome of that 'mini vote'.

That's direct democracy. We would be ruled by the 5% of the population who are motivated, mostly by fear and ignorance, to vote on any particular bill.

No it wouldn't. People lose interest in the political system because no matter what they say, or how they vote, it's always the same poo but with a different person. That wouldn't happen with direct democracy

John Smith wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:19am:

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

BTW, under your proposal, who would decide what bills come before parliament?

I would suggest anyone be allowed to present a bill, but it would need the support of 'x' number of people before it could be tabled in parliament. That way even you, if you had a great idea regarding policy for something could have your voice heard.

John Smith wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:19am:

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

Informing yourself on every bill in enough detail to make an informed decision would be a full time job. And you expect every voter in the country to do that.

they wouldn't need to. They only need to inform themselves of the bills they have intend to vote on

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

That's why the system has not been used in government for over 2000 years, and never with universal suffrage

no, the system has never been used because up until modern day technology, it was to cumbersome and time consuming to even attempt

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

but if the goal is legislation that reflects the will of the majority, you would get nowhere near it.

you'd only need to majority of those that voted.

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

It's still going to be the same thing, and people are still not going to make a difference individually, because there are 25 million people in this country. They can't all have a turn at steering the ship.

I disagree, they will make a difference and the interests of the public that voted will be first and foremost, not the interests of whoever donated the most to a particular party or the interests of an ideological political party

freediver wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

Like a handout they would be on the receiving end of, or some other benefit?

like anything.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #1 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 1:50pm

Is no vote - is no problem..... our political class are already worming their way towards a direct democracy - one in which they direct everything every time - even horse husbandry ...

With every passing day your rights, protected by little more than convention and an underlying fear of voter reaction, are eroded and quietly slipped away into the night....

You are warned... this process began its out of control acceleration the moment the 'feminists' got their hands on the wheels of state and designed everything to be about 'feelings' - look at the 14 months worth of dollars you could be fined for someone feeling offended by something you post.

The Ayn Rand end of those 'laws' (more non-laws dressed up as spring chicken) would be that I would be fined for that comment above against our poor widdle politicians.

Any 'law' that supports someone's 'feelings' above reality is illegal on the face of it - and the judiciary should have said that decades ago rather then raising their rumps to the heavens and basking in the deep penetration

(makes 'em all warm inside to punish some non-evildoer - there is nothing more juicy to the hordes of Satan than the soul of an innocent)

of their own superior position over the peasants alongside their political masters

(term borrowed from my Viet Vet lawyer)

... part of the problem - not of the solution.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Yadda

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #2 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 2:53pm

"Universal suffrage" ...has been the cancer, which always kills the efficacy of (a) democratic principle among a nation of people, imo.

"Universal suffrage" ...has led to the corruption of the integrity of the 'democratic' state, imo.

If you don't understand the term "Universal suffrage", look it up.

"Universal suffrage", imo, is 'designed' to reward those who [always] chase personal reward [or personal gain], ...instead of encouraging us, to be content, to reward individual merit.

'Democracy' guided by "Universal suffrage", will always seek to please [and empower] an unruly mob.

.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.
From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.
- Alexander Fraser Tytler

Psalms 12:8
The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

"Glory follows virtue as if it were its shadow."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman Statesman

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: direct democracy Reply #3 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:21pm
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aquascoot

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #4 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:30pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:21pm:

Mr Smith has never agreed with a post by the genius Aquascoot.

therefore , by definition, he hasnt got a clue about how the "real " world works and how "real" australians think.

the idea of direct democracy Cheesy

.

if you get 6 people together and get them to vote on where to go for lunch, they will still be arguing after 30 minutes and one of them will be lost in the dunny

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The_Barnacle Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6205 Melbourne Gender:	Re: direct democracy Reply #5 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:37pm So every eligible voter has to vote on every bill passed by the parliament. We would spend half our lives in polling booths. Completely unworkable
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: direct democracy Reply #6 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:40pm The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:37pm: So every eligible voter has to vote on every bill passed by the parliament. We would spend half our lives in polling booths. Completely unworkable why would you enter a polling booth?
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: direct democracy Reply #7 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:41pm aquascoot wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:30pm: Mr Smith has never agreed with a post by the genius Aquascoot. I've never met the 'genius aquascoot' ... only the horseshit 'drooler aquascoot'. Are they distantly related?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47368 At my desk.	Re: direct democracy Reply #8 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 4:10pm John can you see any potential issues with your proposal in terms of how legislation is funded, properly drafting legislation, minority rule, people being motivated by self interest to rort the system, and the burden on voters?
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: direct democracy Reply #9 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 5:05pm freediver wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 4:10pm: John can you see any potential issues with your proposal in terms of how legislation is funded, properly drafting legislation, minority rule, people being motivated by self interest to rort the system, and the burden on voters? NO, nothing that can't be worked out.
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Auggie

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Posts: 8571

Re: direct democracy
Reply #10 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 5:17pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 2:53pm:

"Universal suffrage" ...has been the cancer, which always kills the efficacy of (a) democratic principle among a nation of people, imo.

"Universal suffrage" ...has led to the corruption of the integrity of the 'democratic' state, imo.

If you don't understand the term "Universal suffrage", look it up.

"Universal suffrage", imo, is 'designed' to reward those who [always] chase personal reward [or personal gain], ...instead of encouraging us, to be content, to reward individual merit.

'Democracy' guided by "Universal suffrage", will always seek to please [and empower] an unruly mob.

.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.
From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.
- Alexander Fraser Tytler

Psalms 12:8
The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

"Glory follows virtue as if it were its shadow."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman Statesman

Wait, so you support authoritarianism?

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The Progressive President

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Auggie

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #11 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 5:18pm

freediver wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 4:10pm:

John can you see any potential issues with your proposal in terms of how legislation is funded, properly drafting legislation, minority rule, people being motivated by self interest to rort the system, and the burden on voters?

Citizen-initiated referenda and legislation exists in Switzerland. Seems to work well there.

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The Progressive President

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freediver

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #12 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 7:00pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 5:05pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 4:10pm:

John can you see any potential issues with your proposal in terms of how legislation is funded, properly drafting legislation, minority rule, people being motivated by self interest to rort the system, and the burden on voters?

NO, nothing that can't be worked out.

How do you "work out" minority rule and the burden on voters?

How do you stop all the private schools getting together and passing a bill to double funding to private schools?

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Yadda

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #13 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 7:44pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

Wait, so you support authoritarianism?

In government ?

No.

I favour a system of government [of the citizenry] which will incentivise every citizen,
to accept personal accountability, for the consequences of their choices. **

Does that sound like a system of government which would be too onerous for an individual who loves truth and freedom ?

**
HOW CAN THAT BE ACCOMPLISHED ?

Easy !

Make and enforce commonsense laws, which will always tend, to make an individual realise that they will more than likely have to be accountable for the consequences of his/her choices.

.

auggie,

Q.
Would you call, wanting individuals to be responsible for the RW consequences of their choices, authoritarianism?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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greggerypeccary

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Re: direct democracy
Reply #14 - Jan 11^th, 2021 at 7:49pm

aquascoot wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:30pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 3:21pm:

Mr Smith has never agreed with a post by the genius Aquascoot.

therefore , by definition, he hasnt got a clue about how the "real " world works and how "real" australians think.

the idea of direct democracy Cheesy

.

if you get 6 people together and get them to vote on where to go for lunch, they will still be arguing after 30 minutes and one of them will be lost in the dunny

Bobby?

It's Bobby, isn't it?

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