Australian Politics Forum - Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?

Belgarion

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #15 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 6:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 4:15pm:

Australia fought a long, bloody campaign against the need for an individual ID for all citizens under Bob Hawk - the Australia Card. The proposal was made in 1985, and abandoned in 1987. It was defeated. Rightly so.

Ideally, we all already have an ID card and it is carried by nearly all citizens - the Medicare Card. All you need is add a photo to it. That is if you feel a photo is necessary.

Why the need for an extra piece of plastic? I have no idea... Roll Eyes

Yes, I remember the outcry over the Australia Card. ID cards were for totalitarian dictatorships and European socialist regimes, not for Australians. Since then however we have all, in fact, become accustomed to having to carry ID.
Many, if not most, large companies require their staff to have ID cards that access the building, their computers etc. We all have a medicare card, most have a drivers licence, many have a passport. Sad it may be, but the days of being able to go through life with out any formal identification are gone.
While we need ID to make our day to day lives function, what would really offend me is if it became compulsory to carry ID at all times, under pain of some sort of penalty.
However, I digress. The idea of a photo medicare card is the simplest and most common sense way to provide ID for all voters. Therefore it will probably never happen. Roll Eyes

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #16 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 6:23pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 4:15pm:

Australia fought a long, bloody campaign against the need for an individual ID for all citizens under Bob Hawk - the Australia Card. The proposal was made in 1985, and abandoned in 1987. It was defeated. Rightly so.

Ideally, we all already have an ID card and it is carried by nearly all citizens - the Medicare Card. All you need is add a photo to it. That is if you feel a photo is necessary.

Why the need for an extra piece of plastic? I have no idea... Roll Eyes

The AuschtraliaKarte - internal passport without which no citizen can travel outside his city limits without detection..... and which all must provide in order to draw any government ration or even attempt to travel...

Always keep a close eye on those who claim to be 'of the people' - Hawke was the beginning of the rot setting in.... then the Undertaker, then Wee Johnnie and co put the final nails in that coffin.

I clearly said to the boys once that (Hawke days) - these ARE the good old days... see what comes next.... I'm highly psychic it seems.... Hawke then betrayed the Union movement via the 'pilot's strike' to benefit his rich mates.....

Within every socialist is a rabid capitalist striving to get out.... and accept his/her rightful place among the well-to-do whom they so despise in theory...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Dnarever

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #17 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 8:18pm

Belgarion wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 7:00am:

I fail to see how requiring voters to produce ID is a form of 'voter suppression' or how it is a 'thing of the right'. We in Australia have the best electoral system in the world and though voter ID is not required at the moment I can see a time in the near future when it will be. Is it strictly necessary? Probably not, however it is not some sort of right wing conspiracy either. Roll Eyes

Tend to agree for Australia.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"? Reply #18 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 8:22pm We have one of the best, most secure electoral systems in the world. Don't try to fix what ain't broke.
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Setanta Gold Member Online \/ Peace man! Posts: 15901 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"? Reply #19 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:37pm John Smith wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 8:22pm: We have one of the best, most secure electoral systems in the world. Don't try to fix what ain't broke. Like our Constitutional Monarchy?
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Dnarever

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #20 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:38pm

Non Mandatory voting in the USA makes vote suppression a genuine imperative for the right and at the same time irrelevant in Australia.

Interesting that the Conservatives in Australia introduced compulsory voting because they believed it would give incentive for their supporters to vote.

At that time the wealthy could afford to have either government to do what they wanted so the effort of voting had little value to them.

In the US the Republicans have been cheating in every election by suppressing the vote for decades. The US republicans do not believe that they can win a fair election and they are probably right.

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Dnarever

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #21 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:41pm

Setanta wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:37pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 8:22pm:

We have one of the best, most secure electoral systems in the world. Don't try to fix what ain't broke.

Like our Constitutional Monarchy?

Have a look at what happened in the US today ? You really want to have a whine about our system ? Really ?

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Setanta

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #22 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:44pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:38pm:

Non Mandatory voting in the USA makes vote suppression a genuine imperative for the right and at the same time irrelevant in Australia.

Interesting that the Conservatives in Australia introduced compulsory voting because they believed it would give incentive for their supporters to vote.

At that time the wealthy could afford to have either government to do what they wanted so the effort of voting had little value to them.

In the US the Republicans have been cheating in every election by suppressing the vote for decades. The US republicans do not believe that they can win a fair election and they are probably right.

Pretty much. I was trying to make a post about the cost/benefit of voter suppression to both sides, there is no benefit to the left as they can never convince or connive the well off out of their vote, on the other hand it's quite easy to disenfranchise the vulnerable.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46362 Gender:	Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"? Reply #23 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:58pm I don't think the Australian system could cope with a population like America. The PM would be a homeless person and Parliment House wouldn't be able to pay its electricity bills.
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Mix_Master

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #24 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:05pm

lee wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 4:46pm:

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 4:28pm:

The Guardian reported that not all electoral officers in the 2015 election allowed people to make a declaration vote, where you sign a statement that you are eligible to vote,

But some did? That then tends to show training of electoral officers is needed.

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 4:28pm:

My question to you, then, would be "If the current system is "the best in the world", why would we be seeking to change it to, in effect, make it less so?"

Because you may want to retain the position as "best in the world". And how exactly would it make it less so?

Because it is "the best system in the world" because it is inclusive. Making it less inclusive keeps it "the best system in the world"...How exactly???

Are you getting it yet?

The LNP want to introduce means of disenfranchising people. I.e. to make elections less inclusive, because they see that as disadvantaging them.

There "is" no fraud issue that requiring ID would solve. The AEC themselves have said this.

So, again, why are they wanting to change a system which is supposedly "the best in the world", to make it less inclusive (and thus less "representative of the will of the people"), and by extension make it a "lesser" system, ostensibly to "solve" a problem which doesn't exist?

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Dnarever

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #25 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:34pm

Setanta wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:44pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:38pm:

Non Mandatory voting in the USA makes vote suppression a genuine imperative for the right and at the same time irrelevant in Australia.

Interesting that the Conservatives in Australia introduced compulsory voting because they believed it would give incentive for their supporters to vote.

At that time the wealthy could afford to have either government to do what they wanted so the effort of voting had little value to them.

In the US the Republicans have been cheating in every election by suppressing the vote for decades. The US republicans do not believe that they can win a fair election and they are probably right.

Pretty much. I was trying to make a post about the cost/benefit of voter suppression to both sides, there is no benefit to the left as they can never convince or connive the well off out of their vote, on the other hand it's quite easy to disenfranchise the vulnerable.

I was making my own point. No disrespect to your view meant.

However I do think some of the same tactics would work against disenfranchising the wealthy.

I) wipe the voter rolls and don't tell them. In the US after an election the republicans commence working towards having the rolls in democrat areas wiped. This means that anyone in this region will have to register to vote even though they believe they are already registered. Lots turn up on polling day to find that they cannot vote.

Remove all the voting boxes.

Remove all or most of the polling stations. In the US Republican areas tend to have a queue to vote time under 20 minutes much like in Australia. In poor more Democrat areas the queue can be 12 hours. I am fairly sure this would be at least an equal disincentive for wealthy republicans.

Voting requirements that are not possible to be met.

There were Indian American groups who resided on reservation with 1 generic address. The voting rule was change to an individual address requirement, they simply didn't have one so they could not register to vote. While this would typically not work in republican voting areas I can think of options that would do the same thing to them like re zoning and leaving them out of any zone or requiring a certain identification and then refusing to issue it to them or issue faulty versions. In general you are right it isn't done. Democrats don't do this.

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Setanta

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #26 - Jan 7^th, 2021 at 11:02pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:34pm:

Setanta wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:44pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:38pm:

Non Mandatory voting in the USA makes vote suppression a genuine imperative for the right and at the same time irrelevant in Australia.

Interesting that the Conservatives in Australia introduced compulsory voting because they believed it would give incentive for their supporters to vote.

At that time the wealthy could afford to have either government to do what they wanted so the effort of voting had little value to them.

In the US the Republicans have been cheating in every election by suppressing the vote for decades. The US republicans do not believe that they can win a fair election and they are probably right.

Pretty much. I was trying to make a post about the cost/benefit of voter suppression to both sides, there is no benefit to the left as they can never convince or connive the well off out of their vote, on the other hand it's quite easy to disenfranchise the vulnerable.

I was making my own point. No disrespect to your view meant.

However I do think some of the same tactics would work against disenfranchising the wealthy.

I) wipe the voter rolls and don't tell them. In the US after an election the republicans commence working towards having the rolls in democrat areas wiped. This means that anyone in this region will have to register to vote even though they believe they are already registered. Lots turn up on polling day to find that they cannot vote.

Remove all the voting boxes.

Remove all or most of the polling stations. In the US Republican areas tend to have a queue to vote time under 20 minutes much like in Australia. In poor more Democrat areas the queue can be 12 hours. I am fairly sure this would be at least an equal disincentive for wealthy republicans.

Voting requirements that are not possible to be met.

There were Indian American groups who resided on reservation with 1 generic address. The voting rule was change to an individual address requirement, they simply didn't have one so they could not register to vote. While this would typically not work in republican voting areas I can think of options that would do the same thing to them like re zoning and leaving them out of any zone or requiring a certain identification and then refusing to issue it to them or issue faulty versions. In general you are right it isn't done. Democrats don't do this.

None of that could in reality happen though. People with resources don't just get wiped away and give up, they do their best to set the terms. On the other hand... What was my previous point?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #27 - Jan 8^th, 2021 at 7:31am

... and yet the critics of the Republicans constantly state that their supporters are knuckle-dragging, low- earning, low-education, low-status types........

How odd........ I suppose that's American politics for you - same as saying all the Democrats are effete poofters etc.... saves any brainwork working out the real issues - which kinda has a parallel or fifty here....

Now why would a US Air Force Veteran of four tours be in a protest in Washington? Nothing to do with a general unrest about Veteran benefits and health treatment and Veteran homelessness and joblessness, is it? That one crosses all party lines while the politicians fatten nicely.... as usual....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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lee

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #28 - Jan 8^th, 2021 at 12:21pm

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:05pm:

Because it is "the best system in the world" because it is inclusive. Making it less inclusive keeps it "the best system in the world"...How exactly???

Are you getting it yet?

So far you haven't made a case for it being less inclusive.

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:05pm:

The LNP want to introduce means of disenfranchising people. I.e. to make elections less inclusive, because they see that as disadvantaging them.

You haven't made the case. What part of "But some did? That then tends to show training of electoral officers is needed" didn't you understand?

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Mix_Master

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Re: Is voter suppression a "thing of the Right"?
Reply #29 - Jan 8^th, 2021 at 2:18pm

lee wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 12:21pm:

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:05pm:

Because it is "the best system in the world" because it is inclusive. Making it less inclusive keeps it "the best system in the world"...How exactly???

Are you getting it yet?

So far you haven't made a case for it being less inclusive.

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 10:05pm:

The LNP want to introduce means of disenfranchising people. I.e. to make elections less inclusive, because they see that as disadvantaging them.

You haven't made the case. What part of "But some did? That then tends to show training of electoral officers is needed" didn't you understand?

I beg to differ.

I made the case quite clearly that the system as it stands is "the best in the world", and does not need to be changed.

You suggested that "making the change" would ensure it remained "the best in the world", without having a clue about how it would do so, or what problem/s the mooted change/s are intended to fix.

I would contend, therefore, that it is you who has not made a case for change.

Which part of "the system works effectively as it stands without the need for any change whatsoever" do you not get?

There has been NO case made for change, based on "fixing failings inherent in the system".

As I noted in a couple of earlier posts, It is "a solution, looking for a non-existent problem to fix".

Please...feel free to make a cogent case* for change, rather than having me make a case - again - to NOT change something that isn't broken as it currently stands.

*"Cogent", would include what is currently wrong with the current system as it stands, and how the proposed changes would fix what is wrong with it.

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