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no such thing as baseload power demand (Read 3775 times)
freediver
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no such thing as baseload power demand
Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am
 
There is no such thing as baseload power demand. What we actually have is a highly variable demand, with all sorts of peaks and troughs. We have put all sorts of economic mechanisms in place to make it look like baseline demand, so that the amount consumed looks as close as possible to how electricity has traditionally been produced. Similar economic mechanisms can be used to manage more variable supply as well as demand. The government does not need to micromanage this. They merely need to get out of the way and let it happen.
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JaSin.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #1 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:13am
 
Both are right, no?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #2 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:15am
 
Your forgetting one thing FD like the leeches that they are private corporations wont budge unless the government hands out some money.

ScoMo has already said to the private corporations STEP UP who want to do this.

I haven't heard anything, has anyone stepped up to the plate has anyone put their hand up....?

Unless there are subsidies the leeches wont budge.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #3 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am
 
A profit is just as good as a handout.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #4 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #5 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:26am
 
Which is better?
A State induced Domestic Economy thriving or the previous Federal induced International Economy dominating?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #6 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:31am
 
It's a bit like covid.

The government came to the party.

I didn't see any multi nationals handing out billions of dollars for the Australian people to help them get through this crisis.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #7 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:37am
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:31am:
It's a bit like covid.

The government came to the party.

I didn't see any multi nationals handing out billions of dollars for the Australian people to help them get through this crisis.


True. But a lot of Business's adapted and took on things like manufacturing masks and other 'essentials' to both stay alive and adapt to a more 'essential' need of market. Doing a Jamie Oliver.

But true - there are many more Private Corps that put their hand out than offer any form of national 'assistence'.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #8 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:39am
 
...Qantas. Putting its hand out big time to the Taxpayers, then outsourcing more overseas.  Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #9 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:40am
 
It was mainly small business that adapted and made masks and hand sanitizes.

In other words the people.

The multi nationals all said please give us some tax payer dollars so we don't sink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #10 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:45am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


So they're not making profits at the prices being charged for electricity today? Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #11 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:46am
 
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #12 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:04am
 
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!


I think you'll find that people are capable of making money without the government holding their hand.

Quote:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Why not? Because they are 'public'?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #13 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:32am
 

Politicians are ruled by their desire for ['addiction' for] popularity.

Corporations know this, and demand from them, what all governments ['by hook or by crook'] are able to provide to them.



1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil....




cynical Yadda.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #14 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:56am
 
A lot of Governments around the world are no match for their Private Corporations and Companies.
C.H.O.A.M
Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles

...just like all the Car Dealerships work together.

The Australian Government is just barely hanging on. How many more Royal Commissions are they going to be able to afford to do?
Soon Australia will be 'Privatised' above a Republic blanket of smaller 'Privatised' Political nations like Riverina, Capricornia, Cape York, Sterling, Gippsland and more.

It's only holding on via the Gov-Gen for the British and the PM's for the USA - both the International arena of Federal.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #15 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:59am
 
If the ALP were in Power - they would be giving all these major Corps and Companies $million dollar packages like they did before and these Corps/Companies ran away with the money - a lot going to CEO bonuses.
The money should be spent on the People, not the Corps/Companies. They chose Privatisation - they're on their own. As too are the Privatised Schools.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #16 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #17 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:42pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


So if you believe Freediver is wrong, why dont you tell us what Baseload is?
And what determines baseload?  Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #18 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:46pm
 
The variable is more enterprising though
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #19 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:57pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:59am:
If the ALP were in Power - they would be giving all these major Corps and Companies $million dollar packages like they did before and these Corps/Companies ran away with the money - a lot going to CEO bonuses.
The money should be spent on the People, not the Corps/Companies. They chose Privatisation - they're on their own. As too are the Privatised Schools.



And privatisation is a "Labor thing?"

You really do live in an alternate universe to the rest of us, don't you?

What's it like there?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #20 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But expectation is to be getting both.
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« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:52am by Dnarever »  
 
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #21 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:12pm
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:46am:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


True.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #22 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:13pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:42pm:
So if you believe Freediver is wrong, why dont you tell us what Baseload is?


Baseload power is the minimum power required at a point in time.

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:42pm:
And what determines baseload? 


Baseload is determined by many things. Time of day, air conditioning, cooking. It depends on the drag on the grid.

"Baseload is the term commonly used to describe the amount of electricity demand required on a continuous basis, i.e. 24 hours a day all year round, to power continuous industrial processes, and essential services such as traffic lights, hospitals etc. "

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...


Glad to help those in need. Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #23 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:17pm
 
Base load supply to me seems more of a real thing than demand.

Where older power systems Coal gas etc have a real life base supply value.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #24 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #25 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:46am:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


True.


And an explanation as to why shouldn't be required...

We are where we are, because neo-liberal Governments have ceded many of the necessities of civilised life to the "profit motive".


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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #26 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:30pm
 
To you, Freediver Baggins, I give The Light of Eärendil, our most beloved star. May it be a light for you
when all other lights go out*.


...

*
Which they will do without fossil fuel dispatchable electricity.
  Tongue
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #27 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #28 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:33pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #29 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #30 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #31 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:33pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Backup generators!


Strike me pink! That's the worst form of fossil fuel supply.  Cheesy


We will need a level of fossil fuel dispatchable power until fusion reaction comes along to solve all our problems.  Cool



To you, Freediver Baggins, I give The Light of Eärendil, our most beloved star. May it be a light for you
when all other lights go out*.


...

*
Which they will do without fossil fuel dispatchable electricity.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #32 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:37pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:35pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:33pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Backup generators.
!

Strike me pink! That's the worst form of fossil fuel supply.  Cheesy


That's why we call them "backup" generators.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #33 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #34 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:41pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Do you have a point?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #35 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:50pm
 
Mix_Master wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:57pm:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:59am:
If the ALP were in Power - they would be giving all these major Corps and Companies $million dollar packages like they did before and these Corps/Companies ran away with the money - a lot going to CEO bonuses.
The money should be spent on the People, not the Corps/Companies. They chose Privatisation - they're on their own. As too are the Privatised Schools.



And privatisation is a "Labor thing?"

You really do live in an alternate universe to the rest of us, don't you?

What's it like there?

It's like being a 'Day Ahead', besides just being 'Down Under'. Fine thanks.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #36 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:42pm:
Do you have a point?



Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #37 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm
 
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #38 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:13pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:52pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:42pm:
Do you have a point?



Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


You are confusing the scenario I presented with an unexpected blackout.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #39 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:13pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:52pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:42pm:
Do you have a point?



Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


You are confusing the scenario I presented with an unexpected blackout.

Ssh. Don't say that word. It's wracist, like Mr Coon's cheese.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #40 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:38pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:13pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:42pm:
So if you believe Freediver is wrong, why dont you tell us what Baseload is?


Baseload power is the minimum power required at a point in time.

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:42pm:
And what determines baseload? 


Baseload is determined by many things. Time of day, air conditioning, cooking. It depends on the drag on the grid.

"Baseload is the term commonly used to describe the amount of electricity demand required on a continuous basis, i.e. 24 hours a day all year round, to power continuous industrial processes, and essential services such as traffic lights, hospitals etc. "

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...


Glad to help those in need. Wink


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Base load refers to the minimum level of output that these big power generators could go to, before they turned off.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-10-12/renewable-energy-baseload-power/9...

Firstly, it’s important to know that baseload power is the result of the way the electricity market used to work when coal-fired power stations were its mainstay and cheapest option. ‘Baseload’ did/does not refer to the maximum or even the average output of these power stations, but the minimum they could produce without having to be switched off.

The problem was that there usually wasn’t enough load for these huge baseload generators at night, and no generating company wanted to turn them off because it cost too much money and energy to get them running again.

“The baseload, that is the lowest load on the generators, is met at 4 a.m.,” Vassallo continues. “At that time of the day the idea is that the cheap fuel generators, the coal-fired generators, would be ticking over, just meting that minimum demand.

“If the demand dropped even more, some of the big generators would have to turn off, which is very inefficient. So there were schemes like off-peak hot water to provide extra load and use the generator power that was available at that time of night.”

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/baseload-energy-generation-expos...
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #41 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 3:06pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:38pm:
Base load refers to the minimum level of output that these big power generators could go to, before they turned off.



Poor petal. Just doesn't understand how power works. Just hope you never have to go to hospital at any time.The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:38pm:
“The baseload, that is the lowest load on the generators, is met at 4 a.m.,” Vassallo continues. “At that time of the day the idea is that the cheap fuel generators, the coal-fired generators, would be ticking over, just meting that minimum demand.


So not working to their lowest level capable. Wink

And because the sun doesn't shine at 4 am you are stuck with wind.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #42 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 3:18pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 3:06pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:38pm:
Base load refers to the minimum level of output that these big power generators could go to, before they turned off.



Poor petal. Just doesn't understand how power works. Just hope you never have to go to hospital at any time.The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 2:38pm:
“The baseload, that is the lowest load on the generators, is met at 4 a.m.,” Vassallo continues. “At that time of the day the idea is that the cheap fuel generators, the coal-fired generators, would be ticking over, just meting that minimum demand.


So not working to their lowest level capable. Wink

And because the sun doesn't shine at 4 am you are stuck with wind.


And because the world's largest batteries only last for about one hour, if the wind stops ... it's back to: the light of Eärendil  Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #43 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:21am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!


I think you'll find that people are capable of making money without the government holding their hand.

Quote:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Why not? Because they are 'public'?


No because they are essentials of life & shouldn't be at the dictate of profit driven private companies.

Where has privatisation in these areas reduced prices for the public?

Even water for agriculture has now been turned into a tradable commodity making it affordable only to corporate agriculture.... where in many cases the water trading is where they make the most profit & often becomes the sole business.

This makes buying water unaffordable to smaller farming operators.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #44 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

While baseload demand may be questionable baseload supply isn't - that is very real.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #45 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:31am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.


The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #46 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:33am
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:59am:
If the ALP were in Power - they would be giving all these major Corps and Companies $million dollar packages like they did before and these Corps/Companies ran away with the money - a lot going to CEO bonuses.
The money should be spent on the People, not the Corps/Companies. They chose Privatisation - they're on their own. As too are the Privatised Schools.


Grin Grin you loon.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #47 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:36am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


It's all in the name - "backup".

Do you know what that means in this situation?

Or are you suggesting they run on these 24/7? Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #48 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:38am
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm:
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.



As FD is always saying -  your point?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #49 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am
 
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:52pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:42pm:
Do you have a point?



Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


No Lee wrong here. These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.

Not that I see a topic here. There will be a measure for projected power demand may as well call it baseline as anything else. Saying it isn't real is true enough - it was never meant to be true. 
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #50 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 7:02am
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:38am:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm:
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.



As FD is always saying -  your point?


There wasn't any 'hiccup' and problem about Power supply at the Hospital. Plenty of back up contingencies apparently. The watermelon thick cable of wires sliced in half had no impact whatsoever on the performance of the Hospital.
Just thought I'ld add that - nothing major.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #51 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 7:07am
 
I'ld say FD's 'Privatisation' angle is much like New Zealand - so far a nation ahead of Australia in many ways.
So much so, they can own NSW as a State of theirs, more than the other way around.

Civil Politics is way ahead. Australia couldn't even get the PM to follow orders from the Fire Commissioner during the Wild Fires - apparently the PM was 'in control' from a holiday in Hawaii all along.
Privatisation is going great guns and less Kiwis are moving to Australia for work these days.

Australian Marriages are 30% down, 4% pre-corona.
NZ Marriages are up.

Everything about Australia's history since 1788 has basically been a success in New Zealand, rather than Australia.

...even now Russia blasts Australia for 'War Crimes'.
Ironic huh Tongue Embarrassed
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #52 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:39pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.




Poor petal. Of course it can fail. No it isn't theoretical. Baseload is the minimum required. IF the generators require more to be generated to keep them turning that merely overstates the level of baseload required. It doesn't mean that there is no baseload. Roll Eyes

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?



Correct

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #53 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:50pm
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:31am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.


The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.


Not quite,
"offpeak" was originally invented because when everyone is asleep coal powered generators were generating more power than was actually needed, (baseload output was greater than baseline demand) so they had to encourage people to use power at these times.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #54 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.



That doesn't scan very well.  But I think you are confusing "no break" power where a generator is constantly running to "Stand by" power that is only started when power fails and then has to warmed up and brought up to speed.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
Saying it isn't real is true enough - it was never meant to be true. 



So hospitals went 24 hour only because power became available? Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #55 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 4:14pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:39pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.




Poor petal. Of course it can fail. No it isn't theoretical. Baseload is the minimum required. IF the generators require more to be generated to keep them turning that merely overstates the level of baseload required. It doesn't mean that there is no baseload. Roll Eyes

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?



Correct



Quote:
Baseload is the minimum required. IF the generators require more to be generated to keep them turning that merely overstates the level of baseload required.


You are talking about the minimum baseload available for supply. The demand baseload is the projected baseload needed. The demand load needed is a Realtime load which may exceed the baseload.

Baseload supply is the minimum supplied by the generators running at their min. As soon as you introduce the word demand it is not this.

Demand is either referring to the current network demand in real terms or a projected figure for supply planning. Baseload demand (may not even be a real term) but could only be a projection of the base supply requirement. This could be something like baseload plus 20%. Expected base distribution requirement over a specified time period like an expected peak.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #56 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 5:03pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 4:14pm:
You are talking about the minimum baseload available for supply. The demand baseload is the projected baseload needed. The demand load needed is a Realtime load which may exceed the baseload.



Yes. So baseload is real, non-theoretical. You can't theorise demand with any exactitude.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #57 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 5:07pm
 
Thanks FD. Feeling like a ping-pong ball on this one. Undecided
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #58 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:23pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 5:03pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 4:14pm:
You are talking about the minimum baseload available for supply. The demand baseload is the projected baseload needed. The demand load needed is a Realtime load which may exceed the baseload.



Yes. So baseload is real, non-theoretical. You can't theorise demand with any exactitude.


Real demand is just demand. A baseline is just the starting point of measurement.  A baseload is a known system parameter.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #59 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:25pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
Thanks FD. Feeling like a ping-pong ball on this one. Undecided


Yes I don't even care. I think he is likely right for a change. The term is not logical, I am not sure that it means anything or even really exists as a valid term.

I suspect that people think he means baseload power.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #60 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:34pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:23pm:
A baseload is a known system parameter.



Nope. It is estimated. But as an average of recent past usage.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #61 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:14pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm:
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.


Most Hospitals have several different commercial power sources connected to the building as the first level of redundancy. They will come from different local power distributions.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #62 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:22pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.



That doesn't scan very well.  But I think you are confusing "no break" power where a generator is constantly running to "Stand by" power that is only started when power fails and then has to warmed up and brought up to speed.



Hospital grade generators by regulation have to provide power in under 10 seconds, essential hospital equipment is typically UPS protected. Using believe it or not hospital grade UPS systems.

Power fails - UPS holds power to essential equipment - 10 sec later emergency power takes over.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #63 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:30pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.



So hospitals went 24 hour only because power became available? Roll Eyes


I have no idea where this comment came from but I doubt anyone here went into a hospital before power ?

Before power there was little need for hospitals to have power backup and they would not have had equipment that ran on electricity so it is all rather moot.

I have seen old movies where there was a Florence Nightingale type walking the wards with a candle if that is any help ?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #64 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:35pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:34pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:23pm:
A baseload is a known system parameter.



Nope. It is estimated. But as an average of recent past usage.


Baseload is the output at the lowest running speed of the generator. It has nothing to do with baseload demand.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #65 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:51pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:35pm:
It has nothing to do with baseload demand.



Agreed but the topic is "baseline demand".
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #66 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:08pm
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:21am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!


I think you'll find that people are capable of making money without the government holding their hand.

Quote:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Why not? Because they are 'public'?


No because they are essentials of life & shouldn't be at the dictate of profit driven private companies.

Where has privatisation in these areas reduced prices for the public?

Even water for agriculture has now been turned into a tradable commodity making it affordable only to corporate agriculture.... where in many cases the water trading is where they make the most profit & often becomes the sole business.

This makes buying water unaffordable to smaller farming operators.


Electricity is not an essential. Especially grid electricity. Food is, and we happily let the free market dictate the price of food. And we pay far less because of that.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

While baseload demand may be questionable baseload supply isn't - that is very real.


It is also imaginary. We only have a word for it because of the way electricity has traditionally been generated.

It's like explaining to someone who comes from a place that never had tanks or dams that you don't have to leave the taps on.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:31am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.


The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.


It was to avoid building extra infrastructure to burn off excess electricity at night when they could not temporarily shut the coal fired power stations down. They would have happily built more infrastructure to cope with peak demand. Off peak barely makes a dent in that.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:36am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


It's all in the name - "backup".

Do you know what that means in this situation?

Or are you suggesting they run on these 24/7? Roll Eyes


What I suggest is exactly what I said. Any place that "needs" electricity has their own backup supply, so your suggestion that patients will die for some reason is rediculous. Not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #67 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:08pm:
Electricity is not an essential.



Absolutely. We can cook over wood or gas. Use wood or gas for heating. I am not sure how modern computers would go. Although the plastic cases burn well. Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #68 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:52pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:42pm:
Do you have a point?



Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


No Lee wrong here. These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.

Not that I see a topic here. There will be a measure for projected power demand may as well call it baseline as anything else. Saying it isn't real is true enough - it was never meant to be true. 


You can get a UPS that kicks in effectively instantaneously, so there is no loss of power for whatever "needs" it while the backup generators kick in. Not sure what Lee is worried about.

lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm:
That doesn't scan very well.  But I think you are confusing "no break" power where a generator is constantly running to "Stand by" power that is only started when power fails and then has to warmed up and brought up to speed.


It's called an uninterruptible power supply Lee. You can get them off the shelf at office works. It does not require a generator constantly running. Are you making this up, or do you know a place that actually runs backup generators constantly without using them?
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« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:24pm by freediver »  

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #69 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm:
You can get a UPS that kicks in effectively instantaneously, so there is no loss of power for whatever "needs" it while the backup generators kick in. Not sure what Lee is worried about.



I'm not. The spleen thing was just a throw away remark. Sorry Sarcasm doesn't prose well. Wink

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm:
It's called an uninterruptible power supply Lee. You can get them off the shelf at office works. It does not require a generator constantly running.



I know what a UPS is petal.

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm:
Are you making this up, or do you know a place that actually runs backup generators constantly without using them?



They used to be the go before UPS's. And yeas they did. They were called "no break plant" because it meant as soon as system electricity died they took over.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #70 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 10:17pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:14pm:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm:
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.


Most Hospitals have several different commercial power sources connected to the building as the first level of redundancy. They will come from different local power distributions.

I'ld say you're right there. The Hospital didn't flinch I heard.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #71 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:09am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:08pm:
Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:21am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!


I think you'll find that people are capable of making money without the government holding their hand.

Quote:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Why not? Because they are 'public'?


No because they are essentials of life & shouldn't be at the dictate of profit driven private companies.

Where has privatisation in these areas reduced prices for the public?

Even water for agriculture has now been turned into a tradable commodity making it affordable only to corporate agriculture.... where in many cases the water trading is where they make the most profit & often becomes the sole business.

This makes buying water unaffordable to smaller farming operators.


Electricity is not an essential. Especially grid electricity. Food is, and we happily let the free market dictate the price of food. And we pay far less because of that.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

While baseload demand may be questionable baseload supply isn't - that is very real.


It is also imaginary. We only have a word for it because of the way electricity has traditionally been generated.

It's like explaining to someone who comes from a place that never had tanks or dams that you don't have to leave the taps on.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:31am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.


The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.


It was to avoid building extra infrastructure to burn off excess electricity at night when they could not temporarily shut the coal fired power stations down. They would have happily built more infrastructure to cope with peak demand. Off peak barely makes a dent in that.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:36am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


It's all in the name - "backup".

Do you know what that means in this situation?

Or are you suggesting they run on these 24/7? Roll Eyes


What I suggest is exactly what I said. Any place that "needs" electricity has their own backup supply, so your suggestion that patients will die for some reason is rediculous. Not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp.


You ought go with the concept of giving yourself a good "grasp". I never made that suggestion - why are you such a liar?

But whilst you bought it up - are you saying that people that were on life support/respirators couldn't die if there was no "backup" supply during a blackout?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #72 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:16am
 
I reckon that some monitors and equipment would 'skip a beat' for but a moment as power supply changes over to a backup - at the most.

If one was on a machine in a 3rd World, or even 2nd World hospital and there was no 'immediate' or 'automatic' back-up power supply. I reckon some people are alive one moment, but dead within minutes because of the next moment with no power.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #73 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 6:29pm
 
I asked the question re: base load/base demand via email to one of my best mates who worked in the electricity generation industry for over 40 years to describe it in laymans terms.

Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].  For eg Qld predicted power requirements by the state system may be 2000 to 3000 mega watts. ( I have not looked recently)
System requirements also includes a reserve predicted by NEMCO (National Electricity Market Operations) to make sure there is enough standby power in case of emergency. In peak load times evening Peak around 6pm and Morning Peak. Around 7 am)  this reserve maybe depleted by calling on suppiers of reserve power and usually supplied at a premium price - eg gas turbines, hydro electricity that can have a short burst of electricity supply.
Baseload -  This can be made up from various sources and is controlled by NEMCO via a market operated system of bids on the price of power to be supplied from those various sources. Baseload is the power supplied usually by firstly, the cheapest means of production minus those in various periods of time underbid by alternate means, for eg Solar and Wind. Solar and Wind for eg at present only have enough capacity of supply, to reduce the baseload power requirements by about 10 per cent, when the wind blows and sunshines and battery supplies are available.
So one could reasonably argue wind, solar and any means of power production not available on a 24 hour basis is not Baseload nor has the the ability of complete baseload requirements for a safe reliable electricity system. It is only supplementary to system requirements. ( THIS PROCESS REMOVES THE ONUS OF GOVERNMENT FOR THIS ESSENTIAL SERVICE OF PROVIDING ELECTRICTY AND MOVES IT TO PRIVATE ENTERPRISE ) Some will try to argue Baseload is variable, which it is but not much in the real scheme of things.
South Australia has to rely on other states to make up reserve power, no matter how big there so so called ‘baseload’ of ‘supplementary power‘ is.
REAL time supply and demand can be accessed through the NEMCO site. It is and will be hard for most of the lay person to understand though.
Baseload is determined by ‘demand of supply’ eg tomorrow's demand is essential supply being enough power to supply the predicted states requirements. In times of hot weather this will usually be more.


The effectiveness of renewables to supply 24 hr power at 50 htz at this time is practically what there is no such thing as FD you knowall.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #74 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:44pm
 
Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].


There is no such minimum. You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz. BTW, the frequency is fairly variable.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #75 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 8:05pm
 
Can both be right and add to the accuracy of the Line?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #76 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 6:59am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:44pm:
Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].


There is no such minimum. You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz. BTW, the frequency is fairly variable.


I'll take his word over yours any day

Do you look at any of your electrical appliances?

Have you ever looked at what is labelled on camping/tradie/ household generators?

50 htz.

You cannot maintain 50 htz for 24/7 with renewables/supplementals across the national grid.

You're a fecken liar.

And you definitely don't know as much as you think you do - knowall.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #77 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am
 
Quote:
I'll take his word over yours any day


You could always try thinking for yourself. Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #78 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 6:54am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Quote:
I'll take his word over yours any day


You could always try thinking for yourself. Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?


Semantics

now it's 3 am?

They don't shut them down because it's too long a process & too expensive once shut down to restart.

Industry demands are usually 24/7.

Renewables are solely supplemental at peak times.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #79 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:12pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 6:54am:
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Quote:
I'll take his word over yours any day


You could always try thinking for yourself. Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?


Semantics

now it's 3 am?

They don't shut them down because it's too long a process & too expensive once shut down to restart.

Industry demands are usually 24/7.

Renewables are solely supplemental at peak times.


It's not semantics. It's the crux of the point that was made.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #80 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?



But if it does affect the frequency then there must a load, and if there is a load it means there is baseload power demand. Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #81 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:26pm
 
lee wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:23pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?



But if it does affect the frequency then there must a load, and if there is a load it means there is baseload power demand. Wink


Lee if people cannot tell whether you are saying stupid poo to be facetious or you really believe it, it is time to give up.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #82 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:26pm:
Lee if people cannot tell whether you are saying stupid poo to be facetious or you really believe it, it is time to give up.



Well petal If there is no baseload power any generation is doing absolutely nothing.
P (power) = V (volts) X  I (current) If you have V but NO I there is no P. There will only be I when there is a load.


Actually  the equation is P= E x I. E being Electromotive force in volts. Wink

If you power down one generator because there is no load there will be no flow on effect. Because there is still NO I.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #83 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 8:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:44pm:
Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].


There is no such minimum. You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz. BTW, the frequency is fairly variable.


50HZ does have a large variance and is impacted by load and supply.

Quote:
You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz.


Only if demand is satisfied. The way it works is that the network is so largely meshed that this would likely cause no issue.

3 Phase 415 V runs at about 1,500 rpm. to produce 50 hz as long as it is running at this speed it will produce 50hz on all 3 X 240 v distributions. Increasing load can slow the speed as reducing it can increase the speed but across a large meshed network this is almost not noticeable and load balancing quickly brings it all back into balance.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #84 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm
 
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #85 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 1:37pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm:
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.


I sent your link to my friend who was over 40 years in the electricity generation industry.

This what he had to say -

Quote:
#*** I read the first two paragraphs and would not bother to read the rest of the self fulfilling prophecy aimed at removing customer and SYSTEM EFFICIENCY, fiscal policy, and State based budget constraints with little if any concern to the CONTINUITY of ELECTRICAL SUPPLY ( hopefully NEMCO have the balls to stand up to this disguise of a ‘free for all’ and subsidy for private enterprise that will continually raise the price of electricity).

When the system gets bigger, say 30, 40 or even 50 percent with alternate supply there will need to be a huge expenditure on the ability to handle contingencies that may affect the reliability of supply. Sure these idiots can play with the meaning of ‘Base load’ but to do so is an endeavour to remove the meaning of an “ESSENTIAL SERVICE”.
FFS they want to pay consumers for not using electricity in peak periods. (SMART METERS) This really is private enterprise going rogue. None of the c**ts have any community morals, but they are going to ‘save the planet’, and who is getting the benefit on this journey. I am sure they would say we all are, just some a lot more than others.

I would have some compassion if the protagonists could see both sides of the story but that does not appear with them or the politicians. NO MIDDLE GROUND!

THE MORE BASE LOAD IS REDUCED THE  EFFICIENCY AND ABILITY TO MAINTAIN A CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY [ESSENTIAL SERVICE] BECOMES COMPROMISED. (Even More so should manufacturing return, meaning large load requirement customers)

WHAT ARE PEOPLE PREPARED TO PAY FOR THIS? AS USUAL THOSE LEAST ABLE TO AFFORD THIS WILL BE THE MOST AFFECTED.

ANY ONE WITH THE MONEY WILL GO “OFF GRID”, Leaving the rest to pick up a heftier bill.

Private enterprise cannot loose! If and when it all goes to poo, i.e. they are not making enough profit after gaining all they can from government/s, it will still be the people who will need to pay the “pick up”.  The Government of the day ‘has it all under control’ after signing agreements with little if any long term analysis.

Just look at the Chinese situation. No critical forward thinking but the Bullshit just keeps coming.

Service fees doubled in about 2014 and now power bills comprise of approx one third fees @ approx $100. ( in my case with solar).

ESSENTIAL SERVICE SHOULD NOT BE OVERSUPPLIED BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE i.e. GREATER THAN 50 percent and nor should BASE LOAD. ( Go Nuclear is presently the clear winner )

FRED HILMER COMPETITION policy on MARKET OPERATED SYSTEMS, a total bugger up.

Alternate power supplies are not the most efficient, not the most continuously reliable, not the most cost effective, not the most recyclable and given the size, number and distribution of such devices will be a burden on the landscape and society. ( a huge amount of increased distribution requirements that the consumer will also have to pay the upkeep) (service fees will need to go up even further and more so when others go off grid) A cat chasing its tail with no end in sight.

Do we have any politicians with brains?

Let Base Load be determined on such a basis. The most practicable and efficient resources at our disposal should be for our use first and foremost and for our benefit.

I will read the rest of his propaganda latter when the blood pressure goes down.
Cheers ###


I apologised to him for getting his blood pressure up.  Grin

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #86 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 2:22pm
 
He continues:-

Quote:
Blood Pressure has gone down, more re the article.


So, that big slab of brown you see is Victoria’s  contribution to the baseload of the National Electricity Market, as in, the minimum load that was demanded for that 24 hour period.

It is all being provided by brown coal, and merged with the black coal from NSW and QLD and the brown coal and gas from SA, the emissions for the NEM  are among the highest in the world per unit electricity.

It is beyond obvious that baseload, as a concept for designing and managing electricity supply in Australia, is and will remain utterly relevant.

The only problem with the graph above is that the baseload supplier is brown coal.

Were that a zero-carbon source of any kind, we ought not care.

It should also be beyond obvious that if you have power generators that can provide that big horizontal slab of demand every day, it would be economically stupid not to build a system around running them at all times, and let other generators deliver the intermediate and peak load above it.

Re above ME - AGREED if it is more efficient and cost effective.


Thirdly we see the mountain-like profile in green, which is electricity from wind.

This, like PV, is non-dispatchable, so when it’s coming, everything else has to make way.

In the course of seven days, supply varies from over 15,000 MW on June 28 to near-zero across the entire NEM at about midday on July 1.

This is nothing whatsoever to do with demand, and everything to do with the weather.

In this “baseload myth” world, Australia needs to design and manage an electricity supply system to accommodate that level of change not as an unforeseen contingency, but as a part of regular operations.


Re above ME - Yes, weather related supplementary availability of power therefore forcing baseload requirements to retreat,

BUT ONLY IF THIS POWER IS AVAILABLE AND BID AT A REDUCED PRICE OR LOWER THAN THE AVAILABLE BASELOAD COST.

Then the argument is HOW IS THE PRICE of weather related power JUSTIFIED? IS IT more efficient?

How is the Return on Investment calculated with these?

Pundits would have you believe this power is free from the sun and wind, when really it has less life, highly susceptible to changes in and required technology, high infrastructure costs, huge distribution costs with interconnections spread over large distances. Then of course there is the weather itself. What would people rather a stable power system supply not subject to this type of weather enforcement or one that has the capability of placing the baseload at higher risk?
Design a system to accommodate as part of regular operations those things that are not regular operations or requirements, HE SAYS.

He SPEAKS WITH FORK TONGUE unless the power is converted and stored as required such as Enormous battery requirements or small off the grid communities with backup power from there own generators and not the grid.

Basically he is full of it in when comparing the little that is supplied from supplementary power. In other words He wants us to pay for those requirements and not private enterprise.


Even the relative outsider to electricity supply can see that a straight replacement of the horizontal line of supply shown in the first figure with something zero-carbon is the lowest risk, highest certainty, lowest disruption path to getting the job done. Imagine a grid that had done exactly that for over 13 million people…

Re Above Me , what a load of horse manure, should read even the relative outsider can see a straight line replacement with something zero carbon and near totally dependent on the weather is high risk, high cost, places greater demands on true baseload cost effective supply and electrical system requirements to maintain a stable, cost efficient essential supply of electricity to all customers and not just those who can afford to pay for there own off grid requirements. My reply to him would be pharque off and build your own.
Cheers #**
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #87 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm
 
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #88 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:42pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 1:37pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm:
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.


I sent your link to my friend who was over 40 years in the electricity generation industry.

This what he had to say -

Quote:
#*** I read the first two paragraphs and would not bother to read the rest of the self fulfilling prophecy aimed at removing customer and SYSTEM EFFICIENCY, fiscal policy, and State based budget constraints with little if any concern to the CONTINUITY of ELECTRICAL SUPPLY ( hopefully NEMCO have the balls to stand up to this disguise of a ‘free for all’ and subsidy for private enterprise that will continually raise the price of electricity).

When the system gets bigger, say 30, 40 or even 50 percent with alternate supply there will need to be a huge expenditure on the ability to handle contingencies that may affect the reliability of supply. Sure these idiots can play with the meaning of ‘Base load’ but to do so is an endeavour to remove the meaning of an “ESSENTIAL SERVICE”.
FFS they want to pay consumers for not using electricity in peak periods. (SMART METERS) This really is private enterprise going rogue. None of the c**ts have any community morals, but they are going to ‘save the planet’, and who is getting the benefit on this journey. I am sure they would say we all are, just some a lot more than others.

I would have some compassion if the protagonists could see both sides of the story but that does not appear with them or the politicians. NO MIDDLE GROUND!

THE MORE BASE LOAD IS REDUCED THE  EFFICIENCY AND ABILITY TO MAINTAIN A CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY [ESSENTIAL SERVICE] BECOMES COMPROMISED. (Even More so should manufacturing return, meaning large load requirement customers)

WHAT ARE PEOPLE PREPARED TO PAY FOR THIS? AS USUAL THOSE LEAST ABLE TO AFFORD THIS WILL BE THE MOST AFFECTED.

ANY ONE WITH THE MONEY WILL GO “OFF GRID”, Leaving the rest to pick up a heftier bill.

Private enterprise cannot loose! If and when it all goes to poo, i.e. they are not making enough profit after gaining all they can from government/s, it will still be the people who will need to pay the “pick up”.  The Government of the day ‘has it all under control’ after signing agreements with little if any long term analysis.

Just look at the Chinese situation. No critical forward thinking but the Bullshit just keeps coming.

Service fees doubled in about 2014 and now power bills comprise of approx one third fees @ approx $100. ( in my case with solar).

ESSENTIAL SERVICE SHOULD NOT BE OVERSUPPLIED BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE i.e. GREATER THAN 50 percent and nor should BASE LOAD. ( Go Nuclear is presently the clear winner )

FRED HILMER COMPETITION policy on MARKET OPERATED SYSTEMS, a total bugger up.

Alternate power supplies are not the most efficient, not the most continuously reliable, not the most cost effective, not the most recyclable and given the size, number and distribution of such devices will be a burden on the landscape and society. ( a huge amount of increased distribution requirements that the consumer will also have to pay the upkeep) (service fees will need to go up even further and more so when others go off grid) A cat chasing its tail with no end in sight.

Do we have any politicians with brains?

Let Base Load be determined on such a basis. The most practicable and efficient resources at our disposal should be for our use first and foremost and for our benefit.

I will read the rest of his propaganda latter when the blood pressure goes down.
Cheers ###


I apologised to him for getting his blood pressure up.  Grin



Quote:
I read the first two paragraphs


if you read it as well you would know that the first 3 paragraphs were explaining the argument that he didn't agree with. This guy was saying the same as your friend.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #89 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


Is anyone saying that baseload power demand has any real substance ?

I suspect most people who disagree think you mean baseload power.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #90 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:07am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


And perhaps you're a closet queer?

You're a rabid capitalist with a privatisation fetish as the be all & end all of every aspect of running essential services.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #91 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:09am
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:42pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 1:37pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm:
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.


I sent your link to my friend who was over 40 years in the electricity generation industry.

This what he had to say -

Quote:
#*** I read the first two paragraphs and would not bother to read the rest of the self fulfilling prophecy aimed at removing customer and SYSTEM EFFICIENCY, fiscal policy, and State based budget constraints with little if any concern to the CONTINUITY of ELECTRICAL SUPPLY ( hopefully NEMCO have the balls to stand up to this disguise of a ‘free for all’ and subsidy for private enterprise that will continually raise the price of electricity).

When the system gets bigger, say 30, 40 or even 50 percent with alternate supply there will need to be a huge expenditure on the ability to handle contingencies that may affect the reliability of supply. Sure these idiots can play with the meaning of ‘Base load’ but to do so is an endeavour to remove the meaning of an “ESSENTIAL SERVICE”.
FFS they want to pay consumers for not using electricity in peak periods. (SMART METERS) This really is private enterprise going rogue. None of the c**ts have any community morals, but they are going to ‘save the planet’, and who is getting the benefit on this journey. I am sure they would say we all are, just some a lot more than others.

I would have some compassion if the protagonists could see both sides of the story but that does not appear with them or the politicians. NO MIDDLE GROUND!

THE MORE BASE LOAD IS REDUCED THE  EFFICIENCY AND ABILITY TO MAINTAIN A CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY [ESSENTIAL SERVICE] BECOMES COMPROMISED. (Even More so should manufacturing return, meaning large load requirement customers)

WHAT ARE PEOPLE PREPARED TO PAY FOR THIS? AS USUAL THOSE LEAST ABLE TO AFFORD THIS WILL BE THE MOST AFFECTED.

ANY ONE WITH THE MONEY WILL GO “OFF GRID”, Leaving the rest to pick up a heftier bill.

Private enterprise cannot loose! If and when it all goes to poo, i.e. they are not making enough profit after gaining all they can from government/s, it will still be the people who will need to pay the “pick up”.  The Government of the day ‘has it all under control’ after signing agreements with little if any long term analysis.

Just look at the Chinese situation. No critical forward thinking but the Bullshit just keeps coming.

Service fees doubled in about 2014 and now power bills comprise of approx one third fees @ approx $100. ( in my case with solar).

ESSENTIAL SERVICE SHOULD NOT BE OVERSUPPLIED BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE i.e. GREATER THAN 50 percent and nor should BASE LOAD. ( Go Nuclear is presently the clear winner )

FRED HILMER COMPETITION policy on MARKET OPERATED SYSTEMS, a total bugger up.

Alternate power supplies are not the most efficient, not the most continuously reliable, not the most cost effective, not the most recyclable and given the size, number and distribution of such devices will be a burden on the landscape and society. ( a huge amount of increased distribution requirements that the consumer will also have to pay the upkeep) (service fees will need to go up even further and more so when others go off grid) A cat chasing its tail with no end in sight.

Do we have any politicians with brains?

Let Base Load be determined on such a basis. The most practicable and efficient resources at our disposal should be for our use first and foremost and for our benefit.

I will read the rest of his propaganda latter when the blood pressure goes down.
Cheers ###


I apologised to him for getting his blood pressure up.  Grin



Quote:
I read the first two paragraphs


if you read it as well you would know that the first 3 paragraphs were explaining the argument that he didn't agree with. This guy was saying the same as your friend.


If you read my second quote from him he came back to me after reading the rest of the article  Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #92 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:12am
 
This is a quick reply to me after I apologised for sending his BP up.

Quote:
All good #***, I had a fair idea this was going to be on the agenda of the arseholes, as they will need to change the meaning of Baseload to suit their ideology of a market arena to suit themselves. Hence it will be a hot topic to persuade the masses to their way of thinking. “pricks”
Cheers #**


As you maybe able to glean he has people like FD worked out.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #93 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:01pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


And perhaps you're a closet queer?

You're a rabid capitalist with a privatisation fetish as the be all & end all of every aspect of running essential services.


You don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are clear and broadly accepted economic principles for both public and private ownership, and I regularly promote both.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


Is anyone saying that baseload power demand has any real substance ?

I suspect most people who disagree think you mean baseload power.


What?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #94 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


And perhaps you're a closet queer?

You're a rabid capitalist with a privatisation fetish as the be all & end all of every aspect of running essential services.


You don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are clear and broadly accepted economic principles for both public and private ownership, and I regularly promote both.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


Is anyone saying that baseload power demand has any real substance ?

I suspect most people who disagree think you mean baseload power.


What?


I'd suggest you're a selective arsehole & your knowledge does not cross all scopes of industry ...

even though you think it does.


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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #95 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 9:08pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:09pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


And perhaps you're a closet queer?

You're a rabid capitalist with a privatisation fetish as the be all & end all of every aspect of running essential services.


You don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are clear and broadly accepted economic principles for both public and private ownership, and I regularly promote both.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


Is anyone saying that baseload power demand has any real substance ?

I suspect most people who disagree think you mean baseload power.


What?


I'd suggest you're a selective arsehole & your knowledge does not cross all scopes of industry ...

even though you think it does.




I'd suggest you make up random poo when you get caught out. Do you have anything relevant to ad, beyond petty ad hominems?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #96 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 8:29am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 9:08pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:09pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


And perhaps you're a closet queer?

You're a rabid capitalist with a privatisation fetish as the be all & end all of every aspect of running essential services.


You don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are clear and broadly accepted economic principles for both public and private ownership, and I regularly promote both.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:46pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


Is anyone saying that baseload power demand has any real substance ?

I suspect most people who disagree think you mean baseload power.


What?


I'd suggest you're a selective arsehole & your knowledge does not cross all scopes of industry ...

even though you think it does.




I'd suggest you make up random poo when you get caught out. Do you have anything relevant to ad, beyond petty ad hominems?


Caught out?  Grin Grin you dreamer

So you think the quotes from my friend are made up poo?

Care to state the electricity generation qualifications you have to back that up?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #97 - Dec 10th, 2020 at 5:59pm
 
Quote:
So you think the quotes from my friend are made up poo?


They are a whole lot of drivel. Feel free to pick out a turd and polish it for us.

Quote:
Care to state the electricity generation qualifications you have to back that up?


What makes you think they are relevant?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #98 - Dec 11th, 2020 at 10:46am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 5:59pm:
Quote:
So you think the quotes from my friend are made up poo?


They are a whole lot of drivel. Feel free to pick out a turd and polish it for us.

Quote:
Care to state the electricity generation qualifications you have to back that up?


What makes you think they are relevant?


Grin You're the one that's full of poo & drivel.

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #99 - Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am
 
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #100 - Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:23am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am:
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?


Which of course is not even related to there being "no such thing as baseload power demand". Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #101 - Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:46am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am:
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?



Soldering has got SFA to do with electricity generation in large scale power houses.

That's where he had worked for over 40 years.

The only Phd you have is in being a knowall tnuc.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #102 - Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:47am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am:
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?



Soldering has got SFA to do with electricity generation in large scale power houses.

That's where he had worked for over 40 years.


So what?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #103 - Dec 13th, 2020 at 6:15am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:47am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am:
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?



Soldering has got SFA to do with electricity generation in large scale power houses.

That's where he had worked for over 40 years.


So what?


You bought it up .... as a sarcastic put down for the responses he made to you claims.

Your claims are BS.

The same as your Union bashing.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #104 - Dec 13th, 2020 at 8:28am
 
Over 100 posts now and I don't recall anyone saying anything about baseload power demand.

I would guess that it is an estimate typically given in units of 10,000 or 100,000 MWH's specified as a function of time.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #105 - Dec 13th, 2020 at 8:41am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 13th, 2020 at 6:15am:
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:47am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am:
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?



Soldering has got SFA to do with electricity generation in large scale power houses.

That's where he had worked for over 40 years.


So what?


You bought it up .... as a sarcastic put down for the responses he made to you claims.

Your claims are BS.

The same as your Union bashing.


I brought it up because you were attempting to make an appeal to authority, without understanding why you think this person has any authority on the matter.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #106 - Dec 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2020 at 8:41am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 13th, 2020 at 6:15am:
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:47am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:46am:
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:22am:
Do you think you need a PhD in soldering to understand that the price of electricity influences how much people use?



Soldering has got SFA to do with electricity generation in large scale power houses.

That's where he had worked for over 40 years.


So what?


You bought it up .... as a sarcastic put down for the responses he made to you claims.

Your claims are BS.

The same as your Union bashing.


I brought it up because you were attempting to make an appeal to authority, without understanding why you think this person has any authority on the matter.


And you "think" you do?  Grin

Pharque me, talk about having a board with a lot of knowalls.....

and the moderator/owner is probably the biggest.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #107 - Dec 13th, 2020 at 4:34pm
 
Would you like to have another go at finding something relevant in his longwinded email?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #108 - Dec 14th, 2020 at 6:45am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2020 at 4:34pm:
Would you like to have another go at finding something relevant in his longwinded email?



No .... his email summed up the situation adequately for me

I asked him to put it in laymans terms

it was long winded because he's not as cliched, short & flippantly glib as you.

Obviously your life experiences in any field mean nothing, are worthy of nothing if you think his 40 odd years working in that industry mean he has no knowledge.

Anything you say/claim should automatically be classed as poo & drivel.....

not just because it is.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #109 - Dec 14th, 2020 at 7:11pm
 
Quote:
it was long winded because he's not as cliched, short & flippantly glib as you.


It's because he didn't understand the question and was trying to make up for that by rambling on about something he did know about.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #110 - Dec 15th, 2020 at 6:14am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2020 at 7:11pm:
Quote:
it was long winded because he's not as cliched, short & flippantly glib as you.


It's because he didn't understand the question and was trying to make up for that by rambling on about something he did know about.


Grin says the consummate hypocrite

there's nothing you don't know everything about ey?  Roll Eyes

Twat

Been to the walrus diving lately?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #111 - Dec 15th, 2020 at 7:03pm
 
He was factually correct, for the most part, but completely oblivious to the point.

Perhaps you didn't know what to ask him. Hence my suggestion that you attempt to pull something relevant from his ramblings. There's no point me trying to figure out why he is so confused.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #112 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 6:56am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2020 at 7:03pm:
He was factually correct, for the most part, but completely oblivious to the point.

Perhaps you didn't know what to ask him. Hence my suggestion that you attempt to pull something relevant from his ramblings. There's no point me trying to figure out why he is so confused.


You never have a point.

Just make BS statements.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #113 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 6:27pm
 
Quote:
no such thing as baseload power demand


Do you agree or disagree?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #114 - Dec 17th, 2020 at 8:16am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2020 at 6:27pm:
Quote:
no such thing as baseload power demand


Do you agree or disagree?


What do you think? Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #115 - Dec 17th, 2020 at 10:23am
 
Well - there is a base demand that never goes away... something like when everyone is asleep and the fridges run etc.  Thing is - a base load varies from hour to hour depending on many conditions such as weather, lockdowns, time of day, day of the week, and so forth.

Therefore a base load can only be estimated for a specific time and is a constant variable, and the only way it can be monitored is to constantly review the actual use at any given time.

Given modern technology, that is not an insurmountable task.

Base load, however, functions within an upper and lower limit.... ergo - there is a need to calculate how to provide that base load at any given time of day or night, and to have a significant reserve.

Capisce?  If we are discussing solar/wind input - obviously those are variable as well, so a constant monitoring process is mandatory with established backups that run 24/7, which, one day, may include mega storage from solar/wind.  That's the aim anyway.

Now that wasn't hard, was it?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #116 - Dec 18th, 2020 at 12:26am
 
Jesus - that shut 'em up. What did I say... what did I say?   Grin Grin Grin

I didn't even mention that power usage was higher when most people are awake.... and the base load required at that time is higher ....  now if we could put solar in - say - the Sahara - and draw on it at will during our peak times....

Think about it - if we put solar and wind in WA and run it into a proper national link, we could feed the East before  the West even wakes up.... say Eastern peak kicks off at 7am - until 10 am EST the West is still on pre-peak....

Just go'a use ya loaf, guv .... the populated East could suck off (they'd love that) the Mid-West and West for hours for free...
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #117 - Dec 18th, 2020 at 7:55pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 17th, 2020 at 8:16am:
freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2020 at 6:27pm:
Quote:
no such thing as baseload power demand


Do you agree or disagree?


What do you think? Roll Eyes


I think you realise how confused you are, so you dodge the question.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #118 - Dec 18th, 2020 at 10:12pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 17th, 2020 at 10:23am:
Well - there is a base demand that never goes away... something like when everyone is asleep and the fridges run etc.  Thing is - a base load varies from hour to hour depending on many conditions such as weather, lockdowns, time of day, day of the week, and so forth.

Therefore a base load can only be estimated for a specific time and is a constant variable, and the only way it can be monitored is to constantly review the actual use at any given time.

Given modern technology, that is not an insurmountable task.

Base load, however, functions within an upper and lower limit.... ergo - there is a need to calculate how to provide that base load at any given time of day or night, and to have a significant reserve.

Capisce?  If we are discussing solar/wind input - obviously those are variable as well, so a constant monitoring process is mandatory with established backups that run 24/7, which, one day, may include mega storage from solar/wind.  That's the aim anyway.

Now that wasn't hard, was it?


I think many get mixed up with Base load supply which is real and base load demand which is more tenuous.

I would think you could say that the base load supply number is designed to meet some expected base demand.

The Question is base load demand real ?

Answer who cares and why ?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #119 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 7:53am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2020 at 7:55pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 17th, 2020 at 8:16am:
freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2020 at 6:27pm:
Quote:
no such thing as baseload power demand


Do you agree or disagree?


What do you think? Roll Eyes


I think you realise how confused you are, so you dodge the question.


You're the confused knowall.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #120 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 7:54am
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 18th, 2020 at 10:12pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 17th, 2020 at 10:23am:
Well - there is a base demand that never goes away... something like when everyone is asleep and the fridges run etc.  Thing is - a base load varies from hour to hour depending on many conditions such as weather, lockdowns, time of day, day of the week, and so forth.

Therefore a base load can only be estimated for a specific time and is a constant variable, and the only way it can be monitored is to constantly review the actual use at any given time.

Given modern technology, that is not an insurmountable task.

Base load, however, functions within an upper and lower limit.... ergo - there is a need to calculate how to provide that base load at any given time of day or night, and to have a significant reserve.

Capisce?  If we are discussing solar/wind input - obviously those are variable as well, so a constant monitoring process is mandatory with established backups that run 24/7, which, one day, may include mega storage from solar/wind.  That's the aim anyway.

Now that wasn't hard, was it?


I think many get mixed up with Base load supply which is real and base load demand which is more tenuous.

I would think you could say that the base load supply number is designed to meet some expected base demand.

The Question is base load demand real ?

Answer who cares and why ?


FD..... because of his pedantics.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #121 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am
 
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #122 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:20am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am:
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?


Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #123 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am:
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?


Baseload power does exit. When you turn on a light switch and it lights that is a part of baseload power demand. Your fridge turning on - again a part of baseload power demand.


Any time there is current draw on the grid there is baseload power demand.  It is the electrical current in Amperes that causes things to work.

Go outside, and if you have the old time meters with the spinning disc, if it is turning you are drawing current from the grid. That current is the I in P = E x I. No current no power.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #124 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
Baseload power does exit. When you turn on a light switch and it lights that is a part of baseload power demand.


Is that the best definition of baseload demand you can come up with?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #125 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:55pm
 
Consider baseload as idle speed on your car... it keeps your air con going, your lights running and so forth..... when there is a demand for more, then the input must be greater....
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #126 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:07pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:55pm:
Consider baseload as idle speed on your car... it keeps your air con going, your lights running and so forth..... when there is a demand for more, then the input must be greater....


Don't know about you, but I don't leave my car running graps.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #127 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:29pm:
Quote:
Baseload power does exit. When you turn on a light switch and it lights that is a part of baseload power demand.


Is that the best definition of baseload demand you can come up with?


Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist. And not the original crap you posted. Where in Australia is there no current draw on the grid at any one time. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

lee wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:13pm:
Go outside, and if you have the old time meters with the spinning disc, if it is turning you are drawing current from the grid. That current is the I in P = E x I. No current no power.


But why did you "forget" this? Multiply 240 Volts by 0 Amps to get the power in volt amps (in an AC circuit). We generally multiply that by a 0.8 Power Factor for Power in Kilowatts in an AC circuit. The answer is of course 0.

Baseload power is simply the minimum, at any one time, of current draw on the grid. Whether it be for hospitals, traffic lights, department stores, homes or manufacturing.

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #128 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 2:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:07pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:55pm:
Consider baseload as idle speed on your car... it keeps your air con going, your lights running and so forth..... when there is a demand for more, then the input must be greater....


Don't know about you, but I don't leave my car running graps.


The comparison is with your household which you do leave running all the time... not a difficult connection...
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #129 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 6:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am:
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?


What is undeniably needed is a consistent reliable base supply. Future demand levels are all calculated expectations.

Useful for base supply level planning and provision.

Call it what you like but there is a need to know the expected level of future Baseload required for planning at the least.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #130 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 7:43am
 
More from my friend in response to Freedivers continued BS.

Quote:
Base load is not the reason for stopping the use of more renewables.

Simply put Baseload is the reason for the most consistent supply of power required for system stability whilst at the same time supplying power by the most efficient and economical means.

Sure the industry is changing and putting the above aside is the risk.  Risk of supply, Risk of system efficiency, Risk of a cost efficiency. Put that aside, “The Consumer WILL PAY DEARLY” either by way of electricity costs and/or government subsidies used to prop it up.

And don’t forget Enormous System Distribution requirements for renewables spread all over the country rather than centralization.

Strange thing the dickhead says no such thing as base load demand then says baseload demand is the most common reason..... (Wanker)

The terminology may be changing to accommodate alternative views, for sure, however it will not be long before the people are a wake up and start to go off grid with alternative systems ( and I applaud this approach, if you have the money).

Take all that continuous and growing demand out of the system then they best stick to A BASE LOAD DEMAND SYTEM for running industry,  because industry will go to wherever it is cheaper and not the profiteers of private enterprise. They will simply build there own IF IT IS CHEAPER.

Maybe there is an answer, the purveyors of More Renewables should concentrate on stand alone off grid systems and stop smacking with a perfectly good cost effective power system.

BRING BACK THE MERIT BASE SYSTEM ( Does the wanker know about that, I wonder) Oh the politics, I am so glad I am retired from this industry.

If he does not like the term Baseload then maybe the wanker would like the Minimum system requirements for continuity of supply and cheapest power supply. 

Errr no that is baseload also.

You should probably talk to **** *****, I believe he does bidding to the system as part of his job now as I have done previously.

Times are a changing.


Even Wiki has a section explaining BASELOAD Demand for people like FD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load#:~:text=The%20baseload%20(also%20base%20...
Quote:
The baseload[1] (also base load) on a grid is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week. This demand can be met by unvarying power plants,[2] dispatchable generation,[3] or by a collection of smaller intermittent energy sources,[4] depending on which approach has the best mix of low cost, availability and high reliability in any particular market. The remainder of demand, varying throughout a day, is met by dispatchable generation which can be turned up or down quickly, such as load following power plants, peaking power plants, or energy storage.

Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants.[2][5] Historically, most or all of baseload demand was met with baseload power plants, however with increasing levels of renewables and advances in flexible generation this is becoming less common.[6]


Contents
1      Description
2      Economics
3      See also
4      References
5      External links
Description
Grid operators take long and short term bids to provide electricity over various time periods and balance supply and demand continuously. The detailed adjustments are known as the unit commitment problem in electrical power production.

While historically large power grids used unvarying power plants to meet the base load, there is no specific technical requirement for this to be so. The base load can equally well be met by the appropriate quantity of intermittent power sources and dispatchable generation.



Further from friend -

Quote:
I was just reading Stanwells annual report. See extract below This is going to get worse for  NEM as the proportion of renewables increases.
Baseload maintains greater system stability. As renewables increase the pressure will be to reduce Baseload ( This is what the dickheads of renewables want. i.e. more exposure to be able to sell their crap at the expense of Baseload requirements)

That affect will be more critical at times of peak power demand, It is already happening and this will be an even more critical aspect of power supply. That is why the retailers like ergon are giving monetary gifts for smart air conditioners, while in reality all it is, is installing switching to switch off or greatly reduce power consumption over these periods. Don’t be surprised if they want to be able to switch off more in the future. They already do this with hot water. So say goodbye to electricity being an essential service.

Stanwell extract:-
“Energy reliability and security of supply is critical The challenge in the NEM as a whole, continues to be ensuring there is enough generation capacity to supply peak demand, even if peak demand occurs for just for a few days or hours in summer each year. Ensuring a reliable and secure supply of electricity, as the generation mix continues to shift, is paramount.

The proportion of renewable energy, along with the rate at which batteries and other technologies are introduced to the market, is changing the supply and demand dynamics of the NEM.”
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #131 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 7:58am
 
If I had the money I'd be stand alone... got the 6.6Km solar system on the roof and plenty of wind here.....  said that years ago at the property..... just didn't have the cash lying around and the 12 year drought... Jesus... now for that bore in the backyard and the timer set pump ready to go and water my gardens... couple of water tanks... living in town now is no different really... the rainwater etc is better than this lime-filled sewerage ....
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #132 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:20am
 
Quote:
Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist.


Easy. It's in the OP.

Do try to keep up Lee.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #133 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:44am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:20am:
Quote:
Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist.


Easy. It's in the OP.

Do try to keep up Lee.


You may think so ..... but there is such a thing.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #134 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:51am
 
Do you believe in unicorns Gnads?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #135 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 12:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:51am:
Do you believe in unicorns Gnads?


You obviously do

You cloud cuckoo land knowall.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #136 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 12:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:20am:
Quote:
Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist.


Easy. It's in the OP.

Do try to keep up Lee.



You forgot the bit about " (A)and not the original crap you posted " Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #137 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:21pm
 
Have you tried covering your ears and chanting to yourself?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #138 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:25pm
 
This is the most nonsensical string ever started by total moron Fleadriver.

Fleadriver has no knowledge of this subject or most other subjects he contributes to other than strings on Mossad dupes of which he has first-hand knowledge.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #139 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:21pm:
Have you tried covering your ears and chanting to yourself?


So that's how YOU do it. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #140 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:31pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:25pm:
This is the most nonsensical string ever started by total moron Fleadriver.

Fleadriver has no knowledge of this subject or most other subjects he contributes to other than strings on Mossad dupes of which he has first-hand knowledge.


Auggie & I got banned by FD 'directly' for calling him Supreme Leader Snoke in a Topic by Auggie.
If FD doesn't ban you, then I guess for once - you might be right.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #141 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:35pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:31pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:25pm:
This is the most nonsensical string ever started by total moron Fleadriver.

Fleadriver has no knowledge of this subject or most other subjects he contributes to other than strings on Mossad dupes of which he has first-hand knowledge.


Auggie & I got banned by FD 'directly' for calling him Supreme Leader Snoke in a Topic by Auggie.
If FD doesn't ban you, then I guess for once - you might be right.


I will rush and get circumcised by FleaDriver's Mohel. That should stop FleaDriver in his tracks.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #142 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:50pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:35pm:
JaSin. wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:31pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 2:25pm:
This is the most nonsensical string ever started by total moron Fleadriver.

Fleadriver has no knowledge of this subject or most other subjects he contributes to other than strings on Mossad dupes of which he has first-hand knowledge.


Auggie & I got banned by FD 'directly' for calling him Supreme Leader Snoke in a Topic by Auggie.
If FD doesn't ban you, then I guess for once - you might be right.


I will rush and get circumcised by FleaDriver's Mohel. That should stop FleaDriver in his tracks.

You're one very weird guy. 
Have you ever thought of taking up an interest in Hobbytex?

At least let Buzzanji and Ayn Marx help you develop your homo-erotic imagination into a fully fledged Pretorian Guard of Honor status. Only then will you discover your full potential and homosexual love for Gordon and bring your stalking skills out of the closet.

It's ok LTYC - we know you have a fascination for all things 'Dick'.  Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #143 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 6:48am
 
For the Knowall FD

Quote:
If you get a chance google Stanwell Annual Report 2019-2020. This is where you will find The CEO s gripes ( usually reading between the lines of course) It appears to me NEM have problems.

Why Renewables want to dismantle the System of Base Load and how they will do it.

By eating into the provision of Baseload opens a greater ability to sell their renewables production at the expense of a planned approach to system efficiency and supply. i.e. (higher risk).

Solar and Wind production is highest (normally) during the day time hours.

Market prices for buying and selling electricity is usually weekdays in the morning and evening peak times and then during the day, with the lowest costs usually overnight.

In the short term, renewables will appear to be cheaper. When the sun shines and the wind blows we have this free electricity, right!. Wrong all these assets will need a return to their investment  and asset costs.

But in the short term it may well be feasible to under bid baseload suppliers to get a foot in the door (so to speak).

I can hear the argument, i.e. we have all this cheap renewable energy and the system won’t let us sell it where baseload is being provided.

Arguably their (renewable) electricity production could be sold for next to nothing in the short term and placing pressure on baseload production whereby large load changes come at extra cost and chew into their efficiency of production and in affect dismantling a cheaper longer term supply of electricity.

Somewhere in the life of renewable assets though, they must return a profit, depending on how the asset was financed and their repayment requirements/ contracts.

For eg; 6000 mega watts of installed renewables has to get a return but possibly at best only a small percentage of the installation capability will be used/sold at particular times. (Especially so with wind generation).

Ask a renewables person what is their installed capability is and what was their peak production over a twenty four hour period.

For eg.,  6000 megawatt capacity and probably at best producing 1000 megawatts maybe over 8 hrs equaling 8000 megawatt hrs divided by 24  hours = 333 megawatt hours for the day compared to a 1200mw power station running continuously = 1200 multiplied by 24 = 28000mw hours.

Awww I can hear screaming of unfair figures, yes alright the power station has one unit on overhaul so change that to 1000 x 24.

Oh yes you bump yours up a bit seeing as you installed some more solar, but hang on that was a cloudy day.

The crunch will be peak times and weather events. Low baseload availability due to less efficient supply and higher forced costs to production, high cost inefficient short time pumped storage supply, high cost short time supply battery storage, huge decentralization costs, distribution costs and system protection.

Infrastructure, technology, ancillaries, sub stations, transformers, maintenance, and the list goes on.

Baseload is the political pawn.

Maximise Baseload, bring on Nuclear with a National Centralised supply grid ( the states will not afford the large layout but will waste millions over a long period of time) of baseload before more millions $ wasted and the system is compromised and cost prohibitive with an uncontrollable and costly waste disposal problem.

Hmmm,  I wonder what the council is going to charge for this service?

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #144 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:09am
 
Link?

Whoever wrote that struggles to make sense Gnads. What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #145 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:19am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:09am:
Link?

Whoever wrote that struggles to make sense Gnads. What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?


Link?  Grin It's from my friend.....

Seems you will make any curt bs statement to maintain your feeling of superiority.

Maybe you think it makes no sense because you don't know anything about electricity generation, it's market forces, the NEM etc. .....

you're just one of the  rabid "Renewables" faithful pushing the agenda he speaks about ....

you must have shares in a renewables company and are looking for a return on your investment....

is it taking too long?  Grin

If I can follow what he's saying then it should be no problem for such a worldly knowall /genius like you.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #146 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:21am
 
For starters, he struggles to use sentences.

What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #147 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:28am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:09am:
Link?

Whoever wrote that struggles to make sense Gnads. What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?

 
Instead of you asking me for a link or making short halfarsed, half smart responses ....

why don't you provide a link?

no better still write down in your own words(laymans terms) what you think the "System of Base Load" is?  Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #148 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:30am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:21am:
For starters, he struggles to use sentences.

What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?


So you're actually being the grammar police & nitpicking?

What do you think the "System of Base Load" is? Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #149 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:31am
 
Quote:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?


I think it is gibberish. You?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #150 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:34am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 7:31am:
Quote:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?


I think it is gibberish. You?


Why?

Because that suits your claim ....

without proof/explanation.  Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #151 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:39am
 
Because it is gibberish. If you are such a big fan of this person, why can you not explain what they are trying to say?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #152 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:27am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:39am:
Because it is gibberish. If you are such a big fan of this person, why can you not explain what they are trying to say?


I'm not a "fan" .. you wanker

he has been one of my best mates for nearly 50 years.

That you say you can't understand what points he's making is just a sham/fishing expedition.

He spent over 40 years working in the electricity generation industry......

I am inclined to believe he has more expertise in that industry & it's market forces than someone like yourself who thinks they know everything.

So unless you have something concrete to add other than your obfuscation you've proven nothing in this whole thread... so pharque off.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #153 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 6:24pm
 
Here you go FD of the manipulative church of renewables.

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #154 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:55pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:27am:
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:39am:
Because it is gibberish. If you are such a big fan of this person, why can you not explain what they are trying to say?


I'm not a "fan" .. you wanker

he has been one of my best mates for nearly 50 years.

That you say you can't understand what points he's making is just a sham/fishing expedition.

He spent over 40 years working in the electricity generation industry......

I am inclined to believe he has more expertise in that industry & it's market forces than someone like yourself who thinks they know everything.

So unless you have something concrete to add other than your obfuscation you've proven nothing in this whole thread... so pharque off.


People who work in an industry have a combination of knowledge and bias. It is easy to not look at other options with a balanced view.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #155 - Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:33pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:55pm:
It is easy to not look at other options with a balanced view.



So tell us about this nirvana where we don't need baseload power. It should be easy as FD says there is no such thing. Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #156 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 6:23am
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:55pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:27am:
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:39am:
Because it is gibberish. If you are such a big fan of this person, why can you not explain what they are trying to say?


I'm not a "fan" .. you wanker

he has been one of my best mates for nearly 50 years.

That you say you can't understand what points he's making is just a sham/fishing expedition.

He spent over 40 years working in the electricity generation industry......

I am inclined to believe he has more expertise in that industry & it's market forces than someone like yourself who thinks they know everything.

So unless you have something concrete to add other than your obfuscation you've proven nothing in this whole thread... so pharque off.


People who work in an industry have a combination of knowledge and bias. It is easy to not look at other options with a balanced view.


Well he certainly hasn't done that .... he addresses the use of renewables & the part they can play............

but he also addresses their shortfalls & impacts on being able to maintain a required baseload and how it will impact costs of electricity.

That is if you read his quotes I posted.

You should ask yourself why so little has actually been done to axe coal fired power.

According to FD(Greta) base load power "isn't real".

So when the reality is too hard he denies it's existence.

Ask any electricity producer - it very much exists.

I thought it was only climate change deniers who were supposed to deny reality?
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #157 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 7:30am
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:46am:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Bingo! Now tell that to your liberal mates who continue to sell everything off.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #158 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:09am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:27am:
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:39am:
Because it is gibberish. If you are such a big fan of this person, why can you not explain what they are trying to say?


I'm not a "fan" .. you wanker

he has been one of my best mates for nearly 50 years.

That you say you can't understand what points he's making is just a sham/fishing expedition.

He spent over 40 years working in the electricity generation industry......

I am inclined to believe he has more expertise in that industry & it's market forces than someone like yourself who thinks they know everything.

So unless you have something concrete to add other than your obfuscation you've proven nothing in this whole thread... so pharque off.


You can't understand them either. I don't think even he can. Being his lover for 50 years is irrelevant.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #159 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:22am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:09am:
You can't understand them either. I don't think even he can. Being his lover for 50 years is irrelevant.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?


Whether the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, coal and gas fired boilers provide base line power to the city and country regions.

And if needs be during peaks the coal and gas fired boilers can also handle that.

Ever since privatization and AGW came along electricity prices have only been increasing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-18/electricity-price-rises-chart-of-the-day/...

...
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #160 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am
 
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #161 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

...
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #162 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am
 
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #163 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 9:07am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


There you go FD.

Even a kid can work it out know.

Just for households........... Wink Smiley

...

The units above are out of wack.

See below........ Smiley

Quote:
The national average for electricity consumption in Australia is 6570 kWh per year or 18 kWh per day


...
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« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2020 at 9:26am by Ajax »  

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #164 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 10:44am
 
I’m ancient enough to recall when discussions of this kind took place the POPULATION BOMB was invariably part of the debate. Is it political correctness that’s put a lid on such considerations or can our species continue to breed at a suicidal rate without concern for the consequences? Never mind, a few more plagues out of China will reduce demand for ‘base load’ whatever that means.
On the other hand we may see a successful application of electric energy supplied by clean plasma generators or other emerging technologies.

https://rh.gatech.edu/features/12-emerging-technologies-may-help-power-future

However, given our species destructive urges to alter the natural world any unlimited form of inexpensive energy could leave us with the massive consequences of efficient, cheap terraforming. Glad I’ll soon be leaving the planet.
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The Human Race is Insane
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #165 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 11:23am
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 10:44am:
I’m ancient enough to recall when discussions of this kind took place the POPULATION BOMB was invariably part of the debate. Is it political correctness that’s put a lid on such considerations or can our species continue to breed at a suicidal rate without concern for the consequences? Never mind, a few more plagues out of China will reduce demand for ‘base load’ whatever that means.
On the other hand we may see a successful application of electric energy supplied by clean plasma generators or other emerging technologies.

https://rh.gatech.edu/features/12-emerging-technologies-may-help-power-future

However, given our species destructive urges to alter the natural world any unlimited form of inexpensive energy could leave us with the massive consequences of efficient, cheap terraforming. Glad I’ll soon be leaving the planet.


Don’t worry with the United Nations World Meteorological Organisation performing weather modification programmes in over 50+ countries around the world so they can make it rain when they want to.

With the CERN and its many little brothers and sisters around the world disrupting the Earths electromagnetic field, magnetic north is shifting I wonder why, and

With HAARP and its many little brothers and sisters disrupting weather patterns all over the place by heating up and lifting the ionosphere, plus

The potential of wind farms to change the natural jet stream of wind flow patterns around the Earth,

If WW3 doesn't happen then,

We will put our own eyes out before to long, over population problem solved as there will be no humans left.
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2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #166 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 11:58am
 
macman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 7:30am:
Gnads wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:46am:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Bingo! Now tell that to your liberal mates who continue to sell everything off.


They're not my liberal mates.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #167 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 12:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:09am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:27am:
freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:39am:
Because it is gibberish. If you are such a big fan of this person, why can you not explain what they are trying to say?


I'm not a "fan" .. you wanker

he has been one of my best mates for nearly 50 years.

That you say you can't understand what points he's making is just a sham/fishing expedition.

He spent over 40 years working in the electricity generation industry......

I am inclined to believe he has more expertise in that industry & it's market forces than someone like yourself who thinks they know everything.

So unless you have something concrete to add other than your obfuscation you've proven nothing in this whole thread... so pharque off.


You can't understand them either. I don't think even he can. Being his lover for 50 years is irrelevant.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. What do you think the "System of Base Load" is?


Big words..... and fairly low for a mod to now suggest he or I are gay. Is that all you've got?

But I can understand why you would have no friends.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #168 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 12:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


He'd certainly sweep the floor with you, you baiting halfsmart softcock.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #169 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 7:56pm
 
lee wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 9:33pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 21st, 2020 at 8:55pm:
It is easy to not look at other options with a balanced view.



So tell us about this nirvana where we don't need baseload power. It should be easy as FD says there is no such thing. Wink


Trapped by your own type of tactic, FD never said that there is no such thing as baseload power ?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #170 - Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:04pm
 
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 9:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


There you go FD.

Even a kid can work it out know.

Just for households........... Wink Smiley

https://i.ibb.co/xXt2dPv/ECA.jpg

The units above are out of wack.

See below........ Smiley

Quote:
The national average for electricity consumption in Australia is 6570 kWh per year or 18 kWh per day


https://i.ibb.co/30WmF6V/NAHH.jpg


So baseload = average?

Or do you just not have a clue what you are on about?
Gnads wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 12:04pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


He'd certainly sweep the floor with you, you baiting halfsmart softcock.


By muttering nonsensical gibberish while sweeping the floor in the corner?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #171 - Dec 23rd, 2020 at 6:25am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:04pm:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 9:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


There you go FD.

Even a kid can work it out know.

Just for households........... Wink Smiley

https://i.ibb.co/xXt2dPv/ECA.jpg

The units above are out of wack.

See below........ Smiley

Quote:
The national average for electricity consumption in Australia is 6570 kWh per year or 18 kWh per day


https://i.ibb.co/30WmF6V/NAHH.jpg


So baseload = average?

Or do you just not have a clue what you are on about?
Gnads wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 12:04pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


He'd certainly sweep the floor with you, you baiting halfsmart softcock.


By muttering nonsensical gibberish while sweeping the floor in the corner?


You'd win the gibbering competition .... that's all you've got.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #172 - Dec 23rd, 2020 at 9:52am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:04pm:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 9:07am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


There you go FD.

Even a kid can work it out know.

Just for households........... Wink Smiley

https://i.ibb.co/xXt2dPv/ECA.jpg

The units above are out of wack.

See below........ Smiley

Quote:
The national average for electricity consumption in Australia is 6570 kWh per year or 18 kWh per day


https://i.ibb.co/30WmF6V/NAHH.jpg


So baseload = average?

Or do you just not have a clue what you are on about?
Gnads wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 12:04pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:58am:
Ajax wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:49am:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2020 at 8:26am:
What do you think the "System of Base Load" is Ajax?


You work it out FD.

Below are the number of households in Melbourne and then we also have industry.

https://i.ibb.co/FJ41kxv/HM.jpg


I have worked it out. It is gibberish, from Gnads' lover who thinks he understands the economics of the electricity market because he sweeps the floor in a power station.


He'd certainly sweep the floor with you, you baiting halfsmart softcock.


By muttering nonsensical gibberish while sweeping the floor in the corner?


Geez FD starting to think I'm talking to a brick wall.

25 million Australians with electricity at their finger tips equals baseline power.....!

OPS forgot about industrial................!

Capiche................!
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #173 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:04am
 
Quote:
Geez FD starting to think I'm talking to a brick wall.

25 million Australians with electricity at their finger tips equals baseline power.....!

OPS forgot about industrial................!

Capiche................!


Are you attempting to define baseload power here, or admitting you have no clue what it even is?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #174 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 11:50am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:04am:
Quote:
Geez FD starting to think I'm talking to a brick wall.

25 million Australians with electricity at their finger tips equals baseline power.....!

OPS forgot about industrial................!

Capiche................!


Are you attempting to define baseload power here, or admitting you have no clue what it even is?


Do you? Roll Eyes
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #175 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 12:51pm
 
Baseload demand is the demand within the parameters of what usage can be expected at any given time plus a 50% reserve of 'fuel' to extend Prudent Limit of Endurance.... the actual figure can vary from hour to hour and is dependent on a number of conditions such as weather, time of day, season, special events and a host of others to numerous to detail here...

Simple really..... it just sounds confusing to the layman.... the man who lays down on the job of interpreting realities .....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #176 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 2:44pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 12:51pm:
Baseload demand is the demand within the parameters of what usage can be expected at any given time plus a 50% reserve of 'fuel' to extend Prudent Limit of Endurance.... the actual figure can vary from hour to hour and is dependent on a number of conditions such as weather, time of day, season, special events and a host of others to numerous to detail here...

Simple really..... it just sounds confusing to the layman.... the man who lays down on the job of interpreting realities .....


Methinks you're wasting your time Graps.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #177 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 9:00am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 11:50am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:04am:
Quote:
Geez FD starting to think I'm talking to a brick wall.

25 million Australians with electricity at their finger tips equals baseline power.....!

OPS forgot about industrial................!

Capiche................!


Are you attempting to define baseload power here, or admitting you have no clue what it even is?


Do you? Roll Eyes


It doesn't exist.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #178 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 9:27am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 9:00am:
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 11:50am:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:04am:
Quote:
Geez FD starting to think I'm talking to a brick wall.

25 million Australians with electricity at their finger tips equals baseline power.....!

OPS forgot about industrial................!

Capiche................!


Are you attempting to define baseload power here, or admitting you have no clue what it even is?


Do you? Roll Eyes


It doesn't exist.


Grin Grin So you don't know. Roll Eyes
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #179 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 9:39am
 
As Grapps likes to demonstrate, you can invent whatever ridiculous definition you want and call that baseload power.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #180 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:00am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 2:44pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 12:51pm:
Baseload demand is the demand within the parameters of what usage can be expected at any given time plus a 50% reserve of 'fuel' to extend Prudent Limit of Endurance.... the actual figure can vary from hour to hour and is dependent on a number of conditions such as weather, time of day, season, special events and a host of others to numerous to detail here...

Simple really..... it just sounds confusing to the layman.... the man who lays down on the job of interpreting realities .....


Methinks you're wasting your time Graps.


X2...............FD.......will argue this till the cows come home no matter whether he is WRONG or right.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #181 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:00am
 
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #182 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:15am
 
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« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:41am by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #183 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:52am
 
Hey FD

This is for you mate...!

365 days

24 hours/day

365 x 24 = 8760 hrs / year

We use 265 TW/h a year

watts = watt hour / hours

watts = 265,000,000,000,000 / 8760

watts = 30,251,141,553

We use 30 billion watts a year and we don't need base line power.

So what level of power do we need FD.......???

Please explain it so we can all be enlightened...!!!
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« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:07am by Ajax »  

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #184 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:55am
 
We don't need it. We want it. How much we want depends entirely on the price.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #185 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:04am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 10:55am:
We don't need it. We want it.


You do want your forum to be accessible to anyone who wants to view it don't you...?!

So you don't need it, but you certainly want it....!

Quote:
How much we want depends entirely on the price.


Ok so what are you trying to say here that green energy is cheaper, fossil fuels are cheaper, what is it going to be...!
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #186 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:13am
 
Quote:
You do want your forum to be accessible to anyone who wants to view it don't you...?!

So you don't need it, but you certainly want it....!


Do you have a point?

Quote:
Ok so what are you trying to say here that green energy is cheaper, fossil fuels are cheaper, what is it going to be...!


I am trying to say that there is no such thing as baseload power demand. Not sure why this is so difficult to get across.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #187 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:40am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:13am:
Quote:
You do want your forum to be accessible to anyone who wants to view it don't you...?!

So you don't need it, but you certainly want it....!


Do you have a point?


I was trying to make one.

Quote:
Quote:
Ok so what are you trying to say here that green energy is cheaper, fossil fuels are cheaper, what is it going to be...!


I am trying to say that there is no such thing as baseload power demand. Not sure why this is so difficult to get across.


Ok so we can stop all fossil fuel energy today only using green energy.

That is if there is no requirement for base line power.

Is that what you're saying....!!!
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #188 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 12:20pm
 
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #189 - Jan 5th, 2021 at 8:54am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 9:39am:
As Grapps likes to demonstrate, you can invent whatever ridiculous definition you want and call that baseload power.


Grin And you think sticking your head up your arse & saying it doesn't exist proves your point?
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #190 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 9:05am
 
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #191 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 10:19am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 5th, 2021 at 8:54am:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 9:39am:
As Grapps likes to demonstrate, you can invent whatever ridiculous definition you want and call that baseload power.


Grin And you think sticking your head up your arse & saying it doesn't exist proves your point?


It's all in the OP. Let me know if you have difficulty understanding any of it.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #192 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 11:59am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2021 at 10:19am:
It's all in the OP. Let me know if you have difficulty understanding any of it.



Poor petal. He can't even think for himself. He has to rely on supposed "experts" for something so basic. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #193 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 2:09pm
 
You are confused, as usual.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #194 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 2:20pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2021 at 2:09pm:
You are confused, as usual.



no petal. I know AC and DC theory. Shall I explain it again?

You have a voltage - from whatever source you want. Battery, generator it makes no difference. If you don't switch in the circuit the voltage does nothing. There is no current flow, so the voltage is a potential that can be applied to a circuit.

Once you throw a switch to a functioning circuit there will be current flow. That functioning circuit is called a load. That current flows through the load and depending on the size of the load will determine the current draw. No current flow means there is no circuit and no power.

For there to be no power there has to be no load. At any one time there is more than one load on the grid, be it industrial or domestic.

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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #195 - Jan 16th, 2021 at 7:59am
 
Quote:
no petal. I know AC and DC theory. Shall I explain it again?


Can you explain why you bothered posting it? Have you forgotten what we were talking about?
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #196 - Jan 16th, 2021 at 2:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 16th, 2021 at 7:59am:
Can you explain why you bothered posting it? Have you forgotten what we were talking about?



Wow. I explained it again and you still don't get it. That must be why it took you 10 days to respond. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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