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no such thing as baseload power demand (Read 3779 times)
JaSin.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #75 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 8:05pm
 
Can both be right and add to the accuracy of the Line?
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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #76 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 6:59am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:44pm:
Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].


There is no such minimum. You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz. BTW, the frequency is fairly variable.


I'll take his word over yours any day

Do you look at any of your electrical appliances?

Have you ever looked at what is labelled on camping/tradie/ household generators?

50 htz.

You cannot maintain 50 htz for 24/7 with renewables/supplementals across the national grid.

You're a fecken liar.

And you definitely don't know as much as you think you do - knowall.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #77 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am
 
Quote:
I'll take his word over yours any day


You could always try thinking for yourself. Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?
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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #78 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 6:54am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Quote:
I'll take his word over yours any day


You could always try thinking for yourself. Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?


Semantics

now it's 3 am?

They don't shut them down because it's too long a process & too expensive once shut down to restart.

Industry demands are usually 24/7.

Renewables are solely supplemental at peak times.
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #79 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:12pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 6:54am:
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Quote:
I'll take his word over yours any day


You could always try thinking for yourself. Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?


Semantics

now it's 3 am?

They don't shut them down because it's too long a process & too expensive once shut down to restart.

Industry demands are usually 24/7.

Renewables are solely supplemental at peak times.


It's not semantics. It's the crux of the point that was made.
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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #80 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?



But if it does affect the frequency then there must a load, and if there is a load it means there is baseload power demand. Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #81 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:26pm
 
lee wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:23pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:28am:
Can you explain why it would be impossible to maintain 50Hz if they shut down an extra power station at 3am?



But if it does affect the frequency then there must a load, and if there is a load it means there is baseload power demand. Wink


Lee if people cannot tell whether you are saying stupid poo to be facetious or you really believe it, it is time to give up.
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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #82 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:26pm:
Lee if people cannot tell whether you are saying stupid poo to be facetious or you really believe it, it is time to give up.



Well petal If there is no baseload power any generation is doing absolutely nothing.
P (power) = V (volts) X  I (current) If you have V but NO I there is no P. There will only be I when there is a load.


Actually  the equation is P= E x I. E being Electromotive force in volts. Wink

If you power down one generator because there is no load there will be no flow on effect. Because there is still NO I.
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Dnarever
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #83 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 8:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:44pm:
Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].


There is no such minimum. You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz. BTW, the frequency is fairly variable.


50HZ does have a large variance and is impacted by load and supply.

Quote:
You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz.


Only if demand is satisfied. The way it works is that the network is so largely meshed that this would likely cause no issue.

3 Phase 415 V runs at about 1,500 rpm. to produce 50 hz as long as it is running at this speed it will produce 50hz on all 3 X 240 v distributions. Increasing load can slow the speed as reducing it can increase the speed but across a large meshed network this is almost not noticeable and load balancing quickly brings it all back into balance.
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« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:17pm by Dnarever »  
 
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Dnarever
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #84 - Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm
 
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #85 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 1:37pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm:
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.


I sent your link to my friend who was over 40 years in the electricity generation industry.

This what he had to say -

Quote:
#*** I read the first two paragraphs and would not bother to read the rest of the self fulfilling prophecy aimed at removing customer and SYSTEM EFFICIENCY, fiscal policy, and State based budget constraints with little if any concern to the CONTINUITY of ELECTRICAL SUPPLY ( hopefully NEMCO have the balls to stand up to this disguise of a ‘free for all’ and subsidy for private enterprise that will continually raise the price of electricity).

When the system gets bigger, say 30, 40 or even 50 percent with alternate supply there will need to be a huge expenditure on the ability to handle contingencies that may affect the reliability of supply. Sure these idiots can play with the meaning of ‘Base load’ but to do so is an endeavour to remove the meaning of an “ESSENTIAL SERVICE”.
FFS they want to pay consumers for not using electricity in peak periods. (SMART METERS) This really is private enterprise going rogue. None of the c**ts have any community morals, but they are going to ‘save the planet’, and who is getting the benefit on this journey. I am sure they would say we all are, just some a lot more than others.

I would have some compassion if the protagonists could see both sides of the story but that does not appear with them or the politicians. NO MIDDLE GROUND!

THE MORE BASE LOAD IS REDUCED THE  EFFICIENCY AND ABILITY TO MAINTAIN A CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY [ESSENTIAL SERVICE] BECOMES COMPROMISED. (Even More so should manufacturing return, meaning large load requirement customers)

WHAT ARE PEOPLE PREPARED TO PAY FOR THIS? AS USUAL THOSE LEAST ABLE TO AFFORD THIS WILL BE THE MOST AFFECTED.

ANY ONE WITH THE MONEY WILL GO “OFF GRID”, Leaving the rest to pick up a heftier bill.

Private enterprise cannot loose! If and when it all goes to poo, i.e. they are not making enough profit after gaining all they can from government/s, it will still be the people who will need to pay the “pick up”.  The Government of the day ‘has it all under control’ after signing agreements with little if any long term analysis.

Just look at the Chinese situation. No critical forward thinking but the Bullshit just keeps coming.

Service fees doubled in about 2014 and now power bills comprise of approx one third fees @ approx $100. ( in my case with solar).

ESSENTIAL SERVICE SHOULD NOT BE OVERSUPPLIED BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE i.e. GREATER THAN 50 percent and nor should BASE LOAD. ( Go Nuclear is presently the clear winner )

FRED HILMER COMPETITION policy on MARKET OPERATED SYSTEMS, a total bugger up.

Alternate power supplies are not the most efficient, not the most continuously reliable, not the most cost effective, not the most recyclable and given the size, number and distribution of such devices will be a burden on the landscape and society. ( a huge amount of increased distribution requirements that the consumer will also have to pay the upkeep) (service fees will need to go up even further and more so when others go off grid) A cat chasing its tail with no end in sight.

Do we have any politicians with brains?

Let Base Load be determined on such a basis. The most practicable and efficient resources at our disposal should be for our use first and foremost and for our benefit.

I will read the rest of his propaganda latter when the blood pressure goes down.
Cheers ###


I apologised to him for getting his blood pressure up.  Grin

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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #86 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 2:22pm
 
He continues:-

Quote:
Blood Pressure has gone down, more re the article.


So, that big slab of brown you see is Victoria’s  contribution to the baseload of the National Electricity Market, as in, the minimum load that was demanded for that 24 hour period.

It is all being provided by brown coal, and merged with the black coal from NSW and QLD and the brown coal and gas from SA, the emissions for the NEM  are among the highest in the world per unit electricity.

It is beyond obvious that baseload, as a concept for designing and managing electricity supply in Australia, is and will remain utterly relevant.

The only problem with the graph above is that the baseload supplier is brown coal.

Were that a zero-carbon source of any kind, we ought not care.

It should also be beyond obvious that if you have power generators that can provide that big horizontal slab of demand every day, it would be economically stupid not to build a system around running them at all times, and let other generators deliver the intermediate and peak load above it.

Re above ME - AGREED if it is more efficient and cost effective.


Thirdly we see the mountain-like profile in green, which is electricity from wind.

This, like PV, is non-dispatchable, so when it’s coming, everything else has to make way.

In the course of seven days, supply varies from over 15,000 MW on June 28 to near-zero across the entire NEM at about midday on July 1.

This is nothing whatsoever to do with demand, and everything to do with the weather.

In this “baseload myth” world, Australia needs to design and manage an electricity supply system to accommodate that level of change not as an unforeseen contingency, but as a part of regular operations.


Re above ME - Yes, weather related supplementary availability of power therefore forcing baseload requirements to retreat,

BUT ONLY IF THIS POWER IS AVAILABLE AND BID AT A REDUCED PRICE OR LOWER THAN THE AVAILABLE BASELOAD COST.

Then the argument is HOW IS THE PRICE of weather related power JUSTIFIED? IS IT more efficient?

How is the Return on Investment calculated with these?

Pundits would have you believe this power is free from the sun and wind, when really it has less life, highly susceptible to changes in and required technology, high infrastructure costs, huge distribution costs with interconnections spread over large distances. Then of course there is the weather itself. What would people rather a stable power system supply not subject to this type of weather enforcement or one that has the capability of placing the baseload at higher risk?
Design a system to accommodate as part of regular operations those things that are not regular operations or requirements, HE SAYS.

He SPEAKS WITH FORK TONGUE unless the power is converted and stored as required such as Enormous battery requirements or small off the grid communities with backup power from there own generators and not the grid.

Basically he is full of it in when comparing the little that is supplied from supplementary power. In other words He wants us to pay for those requirements and not private enterprise.


Even the relative outsider to electricity supply can see that a straight replacement of the horizontal line of supply shown in the first figure with something zero-carbon is the lowest risk, highest certainty, lowest disruption path to getting the job done. Imagine a grid that had done exactly that for over 13 million people…

Re Above Me , what a load of horse manure, should read even the relative outsider can see a straight line replacement with something zero carbon and near totally dependent on the weather is high risk, high cost, places greater demands on true baseload cost effective supply and electrical system requirements to maintain a stable, cost efficient essential supply of electricity to all customers and not just those who can afford to pay for there own off grid requirements. My reply to him would be pharque off and build your own.
Cheers #**
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #87 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm
 
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.
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Dnarever
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #88 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:42pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 1:37pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:31pm:
https://decarbonisesa.com/2014/09/14/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-baseload/

Here is the other side to this argument, or is it a different argument using a different understanding of the same words. Who knows.


I sent your link to my friend who was over 40 years in the electricity generation industry.

This what he had to say -

Quote:
#*** I read the first two paragraphs and would not bother to read the rest of the self fulfilling prophecy aimed at removing customer and SYSTEM EFFICIENCY, fiscal policy, and State based budget constraints with little if any concern to the CONTINUITY of ELECTRICAL SUPPLY ( hopefully NEMCO have the balls to stand up to this disguise of a ‘free for all’ and subsidy for private enterprise that will continually raise the price of electricity).

When the system gets bigger, say 30, 40 or even 50 percent with alternate supply there will need to be a huge expenditure on the ability to handle contingencies that may affect the reliability of supply. Sure these idiots can play with the meaning of ‘Base load’ but to do so is an endeavour to remove the meaning of an “ESSENTIAL SERVICE”.
FFS they want to pay consumers for not using electricity in peak periods. (SMART METERS) This really is private enterprise going rogue. None of the c**ts have any community morals, but they are going to ‘save the planet’, and who is getting the benefit on this journey. I am sure they would say we all are, just some a lot more than others.

I would have some compassion if the protagonists could see both sides of the story but that does not appear with them or the politicians. NO MIDDLE GROUND!

THE MORE BASE LOAD IS REDUCED THE  EFFICIENCY AND ABILITY TO MAINTAIN A CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY [ESSENTIAL SERVICE] BECOMES COMPROMISED. (Even More so should manufacturing return, meaning large load requirement customers)

WHAT ARE PEOPLE PREPARED TO PAY FOR THIS? AS USUAL THOSE LEAST ABLE TO AFFORD THIS WILL BE THE MOST AFFECTED.

ANY ONE WITH THE MONEY WILL GO “OFF GRID”, Leaving the rest to pick up a heftier bill.

Private enterprise cannot loose! If and when it all goes to poo, i.e. they are not making enough profit after gaining all they can from government/s, it will still be the people who will need to pay the “pick up”.  The Government of the day ‘has it all under control’ after signing agreements with little if any long term analysis.

Just look at the Chinese situation. No critical forward thinking but the Bullshit just keeps coming.

Service fees doubled in about 2014 and now power bills comprise of approx one third fees @ approx $100. ( in my case with solar).

ESSENTIAL SERVICE SHOULD NOT BE OVERSUPPLIED BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE i.e. GREATER THAN 50 percent and nor should BASE LOAD. ( Go Nuclear is presently the clear winner )

FRED HILMER COMPETITION policy on MARKET OPERATED SYSTEMS, a total bugger up.

Alternate power supplies are not the most efficient, not the most continuously reliable, not the most cost effective, not the most recyclable and given the size, number and distribution of such devices will be a burden on the landscape and society. ( a huge amount of increased distribution requirements that the consumer will also have to pay the upkeep) (service fees will need to go up even further and more so when others go off grid) A cat chasing its tail with no end in sight.

Do we have any politicians with brains?

Let Base Load be determined on such a basis. The most practicable and efficient resources at our disposal should be for our use first and foremost and for our benefit.

I will read the rest of his propaganda latter when the blood pressure goes down.
Cheers ###


I apologised to him for getting his blood pressure up.  Grin



Quote:
I read the first two paragraphs


if you read it as well you would know that the first 3 paragraphs were explaining the argument that he didn't agree with. This guy was saying the same as your friend.
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Dnarever
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #89 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Did he manage to give you a definition of baseload power demand that made sense?

Is it just the electricity industry in which he wants to impose government micromanagement and destroy innovation, all the while listing all the problems that require innovative solutions? Perhaps he is a closet communist.


Is anyone saying that baseload power demand has any real substance ?

I suspect most people who disagree think you mean baseload power.
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