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no such thing as baseload power demand (Read 3778 times)
lee
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #60 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:34pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:23pm:
A baseload is a known system parameter.



Nope. It is estimated. But as an average of recent past usage.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #61 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:14pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm:
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.


Most Hospitals have several different commercial power sources connected to the building as the first level of redundancy. They will come from different local power distributions.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #62 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:22pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.



That doesn't scan very well.  But I think you are confusing "no break" power where a generator is constantly running to "Stand by" power that is only started when power fails and then has to warmed up and brought up to speed.



Hospital grade generators by regulation have to provide power in under 10 seconds, essential hospital equipment is typically UPS protected. Using believe it or not hospital grade UPS systems.

Power fails - UPS holds power to essential equipment - 10 sec later emergency power takes over.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #63 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:30pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.



So hospitals went 24 hour only because power became available? Roll Eyes


I have no idea where this comment came from but I doubt anyone here went into a hospital before power ?

Before power there was little need for hospitals to have power backup and they would not have had equipment that ran on electricity so it is all rather moot.

I have seen old movies where there was a Florence Nightingale type walking the wards with a candle if that is any help ?
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Dnarever
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #64 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:35pm
 
lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:34pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:23pm:
A baseload is a known system parameter.



Nope. It is estimated. But as an average of recent past usage.


Baseload is the output at the lowest running speed of the generator. It has nothing to do with baseload demand.
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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #65 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:51pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:35pm:
It has nothing to do with baseload demand.



Agreed but the topic is "baseline demand".
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #66 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:08pm
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:21am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!


I think you'll find that people are capable of making money without the government holding their hand.

Quote:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Why not? Because they are 'public'?


No because they are essentials of life & shouldn't be at the dictate of profit driven private companies.

Where has privatisation in these areas reduced prices for the public?

Even water for agriculture has now been turned into a tradable commodity making it affordable only to corporate agriculture.... where in many cases the water trading is where they make the most profit & often becomes the sole business.

This makes buying water unaffordable to smaller farming operators.


Electricity is not an essential. Especially grid electricity. Food is, and we happily let the free market dictate the price of food. And we pay far less because of that.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

While baseload demand may be questionable baseload supply isn't - that is very real.


It is also imaginary. We only have a word for it because of the way electricity has traditionally been generated.

It's like explaining to someone who comes from a place that never had tanks or dams that you don't have to leave the taps on.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:31am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.


The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.


It was to avoid building extra infrastructure to burn off excess electricity at night when they could not temporarily shut the coal fired power stations down. They would have happily built more infrastructure to cope with peak demand. Off peak barely makes a dent in that.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:36am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


It's all in the name - "backup".

Do you know what that means in this situation?

Or are you suggesting they run on these 24/7? Roll Eyes


What I suggest is exactly what I said. Any place that "needs" electricity has their own backup supply, so your suggestion that patients will die for some reason is rediculous. Not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp.
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« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:15pm by freediver »  

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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #67 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:08pm:
Electricity is not an essential.



Absolutely. We can cook over wood or gas. Use wood or gas for heating. I am not sure how modern computers would go. Although the plastic cases burn well. Wink
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #68 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:56am:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:52pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:42pm:
Do you have a point?



Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


No Lee wrong here. These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.

Not that I see a topic here. There will be a measure for projected power demand may as well call it baseline as anything else. Saying it isn't real is true enough - it was never meant to be true. 


You can get a UPS that kicks in effectively instantaneously, so there is no loss of power for whatever "needs" it while the backup generators kick in. Not sure what Lee is worried about.

lee wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 3:55pm:
That doesn't scan very well.  But I think you are confusing "no break" power where a generator is constantly running to "Stand by" power that is only started when power fails and then has to warmed up and brought up to speed.


It's called an uninterruptible power supply Lee. You can get them off the shelf at office works. It does not require a generator constantly running. Are you making this up, or do you know a place that actually runs backup generators constantly without using them?
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« Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:24pm by freediver »  

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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #69 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm:
You can get a UPS that kicks in effectively instantaneously, so there is no loss of power for whatever "needs" it while the backup generators kick in. Not sure what Lee is worried about.



I'm not. The spleen thing was just a throw away remark. Sorry Sarcasm doesn't prose well. Wink

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm:
It's called an uninterruptible power supply Lee. You can get them off the shelf at office works. It does not require a generator constantly running.



I know what a UPS is petal.

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:18pm:
Are you making this up, or do you know a place that actually runs backup generators constantly without using them?



They used to be the go before UPS's. And yeas they did. They were called "no break plant" because it meant as soon as system electricity died they took over.
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JaSin.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #70 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 10:17pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 8:14pm:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:57pm:
I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart  upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.


Most Hospitals have several different commercial power sources connected to the building as the first level of redundancy. They will come from different local power distributions.

I'ld say you're right there. The Hospital didn't flinch I heard.
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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #71 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:09am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 9:08pm:
Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:21am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Ajax wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:25am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:19am:
A profit is just as good as a handout.


But didn't you just say the government should stay clear of such issues.....???

If the government doesn't get involved nothing will happen...!!!

We have to hand over tax payer dollars for the private corporations to make a move.

So what is it....???

Does the government get involved....???

YES OR NO.....!!


I think you'll find that people are capable of making money without the government holding their hand.

Quote:
Public utilities such as the supply of water and electricity should never be in the hands of private enterprise.


Why not? Because they are 'public'?


No because they are essentials of life & shouldn't be at the dictate of profit driven private companies.

Where has privatisation in these areas reduced prices for the public?

Even water for agriculture has now been turned into a tradable commodity making it affordable only to corporate agriculture.... where in many cases the water trading is where they make the most profit & often becomes the sole business.

This makes buying water unaffordable to smaller farming operators.


Electricity is not an essential. Especially grid electricity. Food is, and we happily let the free market dictate the price of food. And we pay far less because of that.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:28am:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


Oh you mean for when that non-existent baseload fails? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

While baseload demand may be questionable baseload supply isn't - that is very real.


It is also imaginary. We only have a word for it because of the way electricity has traditionally been generated.

It's like explaining to someone who comes from a place that never had tanks or dams that you don't have to leave the taps on.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:31am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 9:09am:
There is no such thing as baseline power demand.


Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?


There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.


The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.


It was to avoid building extra infrastructure to burn off excess electricity at night when they could not temporarily shut the coal fired power stations down. They would have happily built more infrastructure to cope with peak demand. Off peak barely makes a dent in that.

Gnads wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 6:36am:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:34pm:
lee wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:32pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 1:20pm:
There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.


So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.


It's all in the name - "backup".

Do you know what that means in this situation?

Or are you suggesting they run on these 24/7? Roll Eyes


What I suggest is exactly what I said. Any place that "needs" electricity has their own backup supply, so your suggestion that patients will die for some reason is rediculous. Not sure why this is a difficult concept to grasp.


You ought go with the concept of giving yourself a good "grasp". I never made that suggestion - why are you such a liar?

But whilst you bought it up - are you saying that people that were on life support/respirators couldn't die if there was no "backup" supply during a blackout?
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JaSin.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #72 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:16am
 
I reckon that some monitors and equipment would 'skip a beat' for but a moment as power supply changes over to a backup - at the most.

If one was on a machine in a 3rd World, or even 2nd World hospital and there was no 'immediate' or 'automatic' back-up power supply. I reckon some people are alive one moment, but dead within minutes because of the next moment with no power.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #73 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 6:29pm
 
I asked the question re: base load/base demand via email to one of my best mates who worked in the electricity generation industry for over 40 years to describe it in laymans terms.

Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].  For eg Qld predicted power requirements by the state system may be 2000 to 3000 mega watts. ( I have not looked recently)
System requirements also includes a reserve predicted by NEMCO (National Electricity Market Operations) to make sure there is enough standby power in case of emergency. In peak load times evening Peak around 6pm and Morning Peak. Around 7 am)  this reserve maybe depleted by calling on suppiers of reserve power and usually supplied at a premium price - eg gas turbines, hydro electricity that can have a short burst of electricity supply.
Baseload -  This can be made up from various sources and is controlled by NEMCO via a market operated system of bids on the price of power to be supplied from those various sources. Baseload is the power supplied usually by firstly, the cheapest means of production minus those in various periods of time underbid by alternate means, for eg Solar and Wind. Solar and Wind for eg at present only have enough capacity of supply, to reduce the baseload power requirements by about 10 per cent, when the wind blows and sunshines and battery supplies are available.
So one could reasonably argue wind, solar and any means of power production not available on a 24 hour basis is not Baseload nor has the the ability of complete baseload requirements for a safe reliable electricity system. It is only supplementary to system requirements. ( THIS PROCESS REMOVES THE ONUS OF GOVERNMENT FOR THIS ESSENTIAL SERVICE OF PROVIDING ELECTRICTY AND MOVES IT TO PRIVATE ENTERPRISE ) Some will try to argue Baseload is variable, which it is but not much in the real scheme of things.
South Australia has to rely on other states to make up reserve power, no matter how big there so so called ‘baseload’ of ‘supplementary power‘ is.
REAL time supply and demand can be accessed through the NEMCO site. It is and will be hard for most of the lay person to understand though.
Baseload is determined by ‘demand of supply’ eg tomorrow's demand is essential supply being enough power to supply the predicted states requirements. In times of hot weather this will usually be more.


The effectiveness of renewables to supply 24 hr power at 50 htz at this time is practically what there is no such thing as FD you knowall.
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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #74 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:44pm
 
Quote:
Baseload being the minimum amount of stable/consistent power required by the Electricty system to maintain system frequency [50hertz].


There is no such minimum. You could shut down one coal fired power station after the other and still maintain 50 Hz. BTW, the frequency is fairly variable.
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