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no such thing as baseload power demand (Read 8290 times)
Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #120 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 7:54am
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 18th, 2020 at 10:12pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 17th, 2020 at 10:23am:
Well - there is a base demand that never goes away... something like when everyone is asleep and the fridges run etc.  Thing is - a base load varies from hour to hour depending on many conditions such as weather, lockdowns, time of day, day of the week, and so forth.

Therefore a base load can only be estimated for a specific time and is a constant variable, and the only way it can be monitored is to constantly review the actual use at any given time.

Given modern technology, that is not an insurmountable task.

Base load, however, functions within an upper and lower limit.... ergo - there is a need to calculate how to provide that base load at any given time of day or night, and to have a significant reserve.

Capisce?  If we are discussing solar/wind input - obviously those are variable as well, so a constant monitoring process is mandatory with established backups that run 24/7, which, one day, may include mega storage from solar/wind.  That's the aim anyway.

Now that wasn't hard, was it?


I think many get mixed up with Base load supply which is real and base load demand which is more tenuous.

I would think you could say that the base load supply number is designed to meet some expected base demand.

The Question is base load demand real ?

Answer who cares and why ?


FD..... because of his pedantics.
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #121 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am
 
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?
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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #122 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:20am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am:
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?


Grin
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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #123 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am:
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?


Baseload power does exit. When you turn on a light switch and it lights that is a part of baseload power demand. Your fridge turning on - again a part of baseload power demand.


Any time there is current draw on the grid there is baseload power demand.  It is the electrical current in Amperes that causes things to work.

Go outside, and if you have the old time meters with the spinning disc, if it is turning you are drawing current from the grid. That current is the I in P = E x I. No current no power.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #124 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
Baseload power does exit. When you turn on a light switch and it lights that is a part of baseload power demand.


Is that the best definition of baseload demand you can come up with?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #125 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:55pm
 
Consider baseload as idle speed on your car... it keeps your air con going, your lights running and so forth..... when there is a demand for more, then the input must be greater....
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #126 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:07pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:55pm:
Consider baseload as idle speed on your car... it keeps your air con going, your lights running and so forth..... when there is a demand for more, then the input must be greater....


Don't know about you, but I don't leave my car running graps.
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lee
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #127 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:29pm:
Quote:
Baseload power does exit. When you turn on a light switch and it lights that is a part of baseload power demand.


Is that the best definition of baseload demand you can come up with?


Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist. And not the original crap you posted. Where in Australia is there no current draw on the grid at any one time. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

lee wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:13pm:
Go outside, and if you have the old time meters with the spinning disc, if it is turning you are drawing current from the grid. That current is the I in P = E x I. No current no power.


But why did you "forget" this? Multiply 240 Volts by 0 Amps to get the power in volt amps (in an AC circuit). We generally multiply that by a 0.8 Power Factor for Power in Kilowatts in an AC circuit. The answer is of course 0.

Baseload power is simply the minimum, at any one time, of current draw on the grid. Whether it be for hospitals, traffic lights, department stores, homes or manufacturing.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #128 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 2:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:07pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 12:55pm:
Consider baseload as idle speed on your car... it keeps your air con going, your lights running and so forth..... when there is a demand for more, then the input must be greater....


Don't know about you, but I don't leave my car running graps.


The comparison is with your household which you do leave running all the time... not a difficult connection...
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #129 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 6:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 8:02am:
Baseload demand is one of the most common reasons trotted out for why we should not use more renewables. Don't you think it is relevant then, if it does not even exist?


What is undeniably needed is a consistent reliable base supply. Future demand levels are all calculated expectations.

Useful for base supply level planning and provision.

Call it what you like but there is a need to know the expected level of future Baseload required for planning at the least.
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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #130 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 7:43am
 
More from my friend in response to Freedivers continued BS.

Quote:
Base load is not the reason for stopping the use of more renewables.

Simply put Baseload is the reason for the most consistent supply of power required for system stability whilst at the same time supplying power by the most efficient and economical means.

Sure the industry is changing and putting the above aside is the risk.  Risk of supply, Risk of system efficiency, Risk of a cost efficiency. Put that aside, “The Consumer WILL PAY DEARLY” either by way of electricity costs and/or government subsidies used to prop it up.

And don’t forget Enormous System Distribution requirements for renewables spread all over the country rather than centralization.

Strange thing the dickhead says no such thing as base load demand then says baseload demand is the most common reason..... (Wanker)

The terminology may be changing to accommodate alternative views, for sure, however it will not be long before the people are a wake up and start to go off grid with alternative systems ( and I applaud this approach, if you have the money).

Take all that continuous and growing demand out of the system then they best stick to A BASE LOAD DEMAND SYTEM for running industry,  because industry will go to wherever it is cheaper and not the profiteers of private enterprise. They will simply build there own IF IT IS CHEAPER.

Maybe there is an answer, the purveyors of More Renewables should concentrate on stand alone off grid systems and stop smacking with a perfectly good cost effective power system.

BRING BACK THE MERIT BASE SYSTEM ( Does the wanker know about that, I wonder) Oh the politics, I am so glad I am retired from this industry.

If he does not like the term Baseload then maybe the wanker would like the Minimum system requirements for continuity of supply and cheapest power supply. 

Errr no that is baseload also.

You should probably talk to **** *****, I believe he does bidding to the system as part of his job now as I have done previously.

Times are a changing.


Even Wiki has a section explaining BASELOAD Demand for people like FD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load#:~:text=The%20baseload%20(also%20base%20...
Quote:
The baseload[1] (also base load) on a grid is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week. This demand can be met by unvarying power plants,[2] dispatchable generation,[3] or by a collection of smaller intermittent energy sources,[4] depending on which approach has the best mix of low cost, availability and high reliability in any particular market. The remainder of demand, varying throughout a day, is met by dispatchable generation which can be turned up or down quickly, such as load following power plants, peaking power plants, or energy storage.

Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants.[2][5] Historically, most or all of baseload demand was met with baseload power plants, however with increasing levels of renewables and advances in flexible generation this is becoming less common.[6]


Contents
1      Description
2      Economics
3      See also
4      References
5      External links
Description
Grid operators take long and short term bids to provide electricity over various time periods and balance supply and demand continuously. The detailed adjustments are known as the unit commitment problem in electrical power production.

While historically large power grids used unvarying power plants to meet the base load, there is no specific technical requirement for this to be so. The base load can equally well be met by the appropriate quantity of intermittent power sources and dispatchable generation.



Further from friend -

Quote:
I was just reading Stanwells annual report. See extract below This is going to get worse for  NEM as the proportion of renewables increases.
Baseload maintains greater system stability. As renewables increase the pressure will be to reduce Baseload ( This is what the dickheads of renewables want. i.e. more exposure to be able to sell their crap at the expense of Baseload requirements)

That affect will be more critical at times of peak power demand, It is already happening and this will be an even more critical aspect of power supply. That is why the retailers like ergon are giving monetary gifts for smart air conditioners, while in reality all it is, is installing switching to switch off or greatly reduce power consumption over these periods. Don’t be surprised if they want to be able to switch off more in the future. They already do this with hot water. So say goodbye to electricity being an essential service.

Stanwell extract:-
“Energy reliability and security of supply is critical The challenge in the NEM as a whole, continues to be ensuring there is enough generation capacity to supply peak demand, even if peak demand occurs for just for a few days or hours in summer each year. Ensuring a reliable and secure supply of electricity, as the generation mix continues to shift, is paramount.

The proportion of renewable energy, along with the rate at which batteries and other technologies are introduced to the market, is changing the supply and demand dynamics of the NEM.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #131 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 7:58am
 
If I had the money I'd be stand alone... got the 6.6Km solar system on the roof and plenty of wind here.....  said that years ago at the property..... just didn't have the cash lying around and the 12 year drought... Jesus... now for that bore in the backyard and the timer set pump ready to go and water my gardens... couple of water tanks... living in town now is no different really... the rainwater etc is better than this lime-filled sewerage ....
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freediver
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #132 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:20am
 
Quote:
Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist.


Easy. It's in the OP.

Do try to keep up Lee.
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Gnads
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #133 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:44am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:20am:
Quote:
Perhaps you can come up with an argument to prove it doesn't exist.


Easy. It's in the OP.

Do try to keep up Lee.


You may think so ..... but there is such a thing.
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Re: no such thing as baseload power demand
Reply #134 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:51am
 
Do you believe in unicorns Gnads?
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