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Alcohol ban Indonesia (Read 14498 times)
Gnads
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #195 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:52am
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 7:00am:
Islamic extremism is situated either side of Bali. East/Nth East and West. In fact you could say surrounded.

Ever heard of Aceh? Large full on Islamic/Sharia province.

Remember the big tsunami?

We sent a heap of support over there in the shape of military helicopters & ADF personnel to assist - set up fresh water treatment plants etc.

Locals got very antsy reckoned we were going to take over - potshots taken at our helicopters

Ungrateful, suspicious little bastids.

The point is being made that Muslim/Islamist influence is being slowly asserted in Bali ..... more Muslims living there, more mosques being built...

there is only one way that is heading ... the same as been happening across all Indonesias island territories & colonial occupation of West Papua.

Most of the people who originally occupied the Moluccas/Maluku Islands, formerly the Spice Islands were Melanesians & pagans/animists ......

Javan expansionism has seen that demographic changed virtually completely to Asian Muslim with some pockets of Christianity.....

that is nearly always being persecuted by Muslims.


I did not hear about the Aceh people taking shots at the ADF helicopters. I do accept that there would have been a lot of confusion in the days after the tsunami. But, the media did not seem to be interested in mentioning something newsworthy like this to stir up reader/viewer interest in the subject.

It is the 21st century, Gnads. Muslim influence is waning quite hard these days. With television being a basic necessity even in the most Muslim of areas, the influence of what they see on television will be the downfall of religious influence on the population.

As for Bali, if they want to keep international tourists to come to their region, they will have to make do with allowing the tourists to drink. Otherwise, Bali will have to deal with fewer tourists who are quite happy to remain sober. Perhaps the drunken Aussie tourist is the reason why Bali could be undertaking an alcohol ban.


Bali is Indonesia - not it's own country with it's own govt.

Even though it's a little island with a large Hindu population.

It's Muslim population is over 13%.

Here's how the rest of the country sits with %s of Muslim population in regional locations/islands.


Quote:
Aceh                                      99.99 %      
Bali                                      13.37 %      
Bangka Belitung Islands      89.00 %      
Banten                              91.64 %      
Bengkulu                              97.29 %      
Central Java                      96.74 %      
Central Kalimantan              74.31 %      
Central Sulawesi              77.72 %      
East Java                              96.36 %      
East Kalimantan                      85.38 %      
East Nusa Tenggara                5.05 %      
Gorontalo                              96.66 %      
Jakarta                              83.43 %      
Jambi                              95.41 %      
Lampung                              95.48 %      
Maluku                              49.61 %      
North Kalimantan              65.75 %      
North Maluku                      74.28 %      
North Sulawesi                      30.90 %      
North Sumatra                      60.39 %      
Papua                              15.88 %      
Riau                                      87.98 %      
Riau Islands                      77.51 %      
South Kalimantan              96.67 %      
South Sulawesi                      89.62 %      
South Sumatra                      96.00 %      
Southeast Sulawesi              95.23 %
West Java                          97.00 %      
West Kalimantan              59.22 %      
West Nusa Tenggara              96.47 %      
West Papua                      38.40 %      
West Sulawesi                       82.66 %      
West Sumatra                       98.00 %      
Yogyakarta                       91.94 %


Secular? Yeah sure - with plenty of sectarian violence as well.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #196 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 9:00am
 
rhino wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 7:40pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 3:19pm:
you dont even know that the Indonesian vice President is a radical Islamist? Like I said, check your facts Champ, the Indonesians voted in a radical Islam agenda. Thats does not make them secular. How about learning some basics first before you argue eh?


Rhino, I feel like you are lashing out hysterically because you know you've been caught out not knowing the basic facts yourself. Like what the PDI-P party actually stands for.

read the jakarta post article yet?

Yes Jokowi chose a cleric with relatively conservative views on social issues as his running mate. But 'radical'? That is of course entirely subjective. In today's vanacular, 'radical' in relation to Islam is usually reserved for those who support violence. Yet he has actually been outspoken against violence, and emphasises the importance of constructive dialogue to settle differences.

Its hardly the point though. Like I said, there was nothing like an Islamist agenda being promoted by any of the major parties during the campaign - least of all by PDI-P. If you asked most PDI-P voters they would probably tell you they would prefer not to have a conservative cleric as Jokowi's running mate - though they still voted for him in spite of that. Logic tells us that the vast majority of these voters voted for the party's secular platform and policies, not some 'radical' Islamist agenda that wasn't even raised during the campaign. As the jakarta post article explains, its likely Jokowi  misread the mood, erroneously thinking that the loud and violent protests that toppled Jakarta governor Ahok was a sign of bigger things to come - and hence why he chose Ma'ruf. In reality, there is little reason to think that Ma'ruf helped him pick up many, if any, extra votes.

Of course thats not to say Indonesia has not seen a surge of Islamism - it undoubtedly has. Yet starting from such a low base, it has a hell of a long way to go before Indonesian society stops being overwhelmingly secular.

uh no, Im fully aware of what the PDI -p allegedly stands for. There is however not an  arguement to be had to say they are secular when they have elected a radical Islamist as the vice President. They can call themselves secular all they want and the useful idiots like yourself can chant then same thing but their policies are not secular and neither is their leadership. The Nazis called themselves socialists, we all know how that ended up. As far as Indonesia having a long way to go before being overwhelming secular, no female gets a job in Muslim majority Indonesia without wearing at the minimum a headscarf. Christians and other minorities are increasingly being targeted by violence being overlooked by the government, the latest being a Church bombing in Sulawesi corresponding with the return to Indonesia of this man, Habib Rizieq Shihab a radical Muslim cleric who fled Indonesia to Saudi Arabia 3 years ago on charges of pornography. Strangely enough, after the latest elections   these charges have disappeared and he is free to pursue his hate terrorism.


So no actual argument I see rhino. Just meaningless handwaving.

Do you even know what PDI-P policies are? You claim they are not secular, though I suspect thats just more baseless hand waving and you don't actually have a clue.

Please get back to me when you have some actual facts to bring to the discussion - instead of just meaningless hysterical hand waving.

Quote:
no female gets a job in Muslim majority Indonesia without wearing at the minimum a headscarf.


Grin Grin you really are a joke.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Ayn Marx
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #197 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 9:53am
 
Jasin wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 3:53pm:
Moslems put colonists in Irian Jaya to outbreed and replace the Papuans there. Considered 'Monkeys' - the poorly armed hill tribes and coastals (bows and arrows) are easy fodder for the Moslem troops and police. Being slowly killed off, displaced, shackled and pushed towards the border into PNG. Replaced with homes and communities built by the Moslem government and filled with colonists who work with authorities and military to 'replace' the monkeys who live in the trees.

True indeed but the question is why this evil is seldom, if ever, mentioned in the Australian media.
Interestingly the Japanese often refer to the Chinese as ‘monkeys’ (サル) often believing themselves to be racially closer to Europeans. The irrationality our species is capable of knows no limits. 
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rhino
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #198 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 10:21am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 9:00am:
rhino wrote Yesterday at 7:40pm:
polite_gandalf wrote Yesterday at 3:19pm:
you dont even know that the Indonesian vice President is a radical Islamist? Like I said, check your facts Champ, the Indonesians voted in a radical Islam agenda. Thats does not make them secular. How about learning some basics first before you argue eh?


Rhino, I feel like you are lashing out hysterically because you know you've been caught out not knowing the basic facts yourself. Like what the PDI-P party actually stands for.

read the jakarta post article yet?

Yes Jokowi chose a cleric with relatively conservative views on social issues as his running mate. But 'radical'? That is of course entirely subjective. In today's vanacular, 'radical' in relation to Islam is usually reserved for those who support violence. Yet he has actually been outspoken against violence, and emphasises the importance of constructive dialogue to settle differences.

Its hardly the point though. Like I said, there was nothing like an Islamist agenda being promoted by any of the major parties during the campaign - least of all by PDI-P. If you asked most PDI-P voters they would probably tell you they would prefer not to have a conservative cleric as Jokowi's running mate - though they still voted for him in spite of that. Logic tells us that the vast majority of these voters voted for the party's secular platform and policies, not some 'radical' Islamist agenda that wasn't even raised during the campaign. As the jakarta post article explains, its likely Jokowi  misread the mood, erroneously thinking that the loud and violent protests that toppled Jakarta governor Ahok was a sign of bigger things to come - and hence why he chose Ma'ruf. In reality, there is little reason to think that Ma'ruf helped him pick up many, if any, extra votes.

Of course thats not to say Indonesia has not seen a surge of Islamism - it undoubtedly has. Yet starting from such a low base, it has a hell of a long way to go before Indonesian society stops being overwhelmingly secular.

uh no, Im fully aware of what the PDI -p allegedly stands for. There is however not an  arguement to be had to say they are secular when they have elected a radical Islamist as the vice President. They can call themselves secular all they want and the useful idiots like yourself can chant then same thing but their policies are not secular and neither is their leadership. The Nazis called themselves socialists, we all know how that ended up. As far as Indonesia having a long way to go before being overwhelming secular, no female gets a job in Muslim majority Indonesia without wearing at the minimum a headscarf. Christians and other minorities are increasingly being targeted by violence being overlooked by the government, the latest being a Church bombing in Sulawesi corresponding with the return to Indonesia of this man, Habib Rizieq Shihab a radical Muslim cleric who fled Indonesia to Saudi Arabia 3 years ago on charges of pornography. Strangely enough, after the latest elections   these charges have disappeared and he is free to pursue his hate terrorism.


So no actual argument I see rhino. Just meaningless handwaving.

Do you even know what PDI-P policies are? You claim they are not secular, though I suspect thats just more baseless hand waving and you don't actually have a clue.

Please get back to me when you have some actual facts to bring to the discussion - instead of just meaningless hysterical hand waving.

Quote:
no female gets a job in Muslim majority Indonesia without wearing at the minimum a headscarf.


  you really are a joke.
Posted by

You are the joke, the facts are what policies are being enacted and how minorities are slowly being squeezed out. You know nothing about Indonesia as you have clearly demonstrated here,.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #199 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 10:35am
 
rhino wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 10:21am:
You know nothing about Indonesia as you have clearly demonstrated here


Says the person who claims that women in Indonesia can't get a job without wearing a head scarf. Do you stand by that idiotic claim rhino?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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rhino
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #200 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 11:28am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 10:35am:

[quote author=gandalf link=1605859300/199#199  ]
Says the person who claims that women in Indonesia can't get a job without wearing a head scarf. Do you stand by that idiotic claim rhino?

Absolutely. Thats because I know what happens there as opposed to reading about it from biased sources. Another thing is how difficult it is to build a church in Indonesia as opposed to building a mosque.
Quote:
The Building Permit Problem that Curses Indonesian Churches
Religious activities in Indonesia receive an apparent constitutional guarantee. Written in the 1945 Constitution of the Republic of Indonesia Chapter 29 verse 2, “The state guarantees the freedom of each citizen to embrace their respective religions and for religious worship according to their religion and belief.”

The reality, however, is contrary to what has been guaranteed and even adds to the long list of intolerant actions against religious minorities in Indonesia. It is evident as two churches across the country became the latest victims of radical Muslim groups.

https://www.persecution.org/2020/03/20/building-permit-problem-curses-indonesian...
you see Gandalf, Indonesia pretends to be secular, thats so useful fools such as yourself can spread that propoganda to westerners who dont know better. And up until round 5 years ago i might have agreed with you, but they have increasingly put enormous obstacles in front to anyone who isnt mainstream Muslim, and its getting worse. There is now an employment test put to non Muslims who wish to apply for any government job and good luck with passing it, the same test is not applied to Muslims. Its like the headscarf thing, you laugh at it but it is a very effective way of discriminating against non Muslims. Why? Think about it, every Muslim now knows before they enter a shop or any business premises which ones are operated by Muslims, this basically restricts minority businesses to only selling or dealing with their own minorities, you might have enough knowledge of real history to remember the yellow star that the nazis made the Jews put on the front of their shops, this is akin to exactly the same thing. And guess what, the government effectively does not allow a business not to identify with the religion of their because they claim that the constitution Pancasila means they must. I have seen all these things  creeping in over the last decade, they are disenfranchising minorities through the power of numbers and useful idiots like yourself support it by buying the BS that they are a secular government.
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #201 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 11:31am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:52am:
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 7:00am:
Islamic extremism is situated either side of Bali. East/Nth East and West. In fact you could say surrounded.

Ever heard of Aceh? Large full on Islamic/Sharia province.

Remember the big tsunami?

We sent a heap of support over there in the shape of military helicopters & ADF personnel to assist - set up fresh water treatment plants etc.

Locals got very antsy reckoned we were going to take over - potshots taken at our helicopters

Ungrateful, suspicious little bastids.

The point is being made that Muslim/Islamist influence is being slowly asserted in Bali ..... more Muslims living there, more mosques being built...

there is only one way that is heading ... the same as been happening across all Indonesias island territories & colonial occupation of West Papua.

Most of the people who originally occupied the Moluccas/Maluku Islands, formerly the Spice Islands were Melanesians & pagans/animists ......

Javan expansionism has seen that demographic changed virtually completely to Asian Muslim with some pockets of Christianity.....

that is nearly always being persecuted by Muslims.


I did not hear about the Aceh people taking shots at the ADF helicopters. I do accept that there would have been a lot of confusion in the days after the tsunami. But, the media did not seem to be interested in mentioning something newsworthy like this to stir up reader/viewer interest in the subject.

It is the 21st century, Gnads. Muslim influence is waning quite hard these days. With television being a basic necessity even in the most Muslim of areas, the influence of what they see on television will be the downfall of religious influence on the population.

As for Bali, if they want to keep international tourists to come to their region, they will have to make do with allowing the tourists to drink. Otherwise, Bali will have to deal with fewer tourists who are quite happy to remain sober. Perhaps the drunken Aussie tourist is the reason why Bali could be undertaking an alcohol ban.


Bali is Indonesia - not it's own country with it's own govt.



A surprisingly large number of Australians don't realise that.

Even idiots who go there every year for drunken holidays.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #202 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 1:03pm
 
rhino wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 11:28am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 10:35am:

[quote author=gandalf link=1605859300/199#199  ]
Says the person who claims that women in Indonesia can't get a job without wearing a head scarf. Do you stand by that idiotic claim rhino?

Absolutely. Thats because I know what happens there as opposed to reading about it from biased sources.



Quote:
I have seen all these things


The thing is rhino, such a stupid claim is so easily refuted. For example, if you really have been to Indonesia you've most probably been on Indonesian flights, where you would have found Indonesian flight attendants who rarely wear hijab. In fact they are usually mandated not to.

Here you go, here's Garuda showcasing their new flight attendant uniforms last year:

...

why aren't those girls wearing a scarf rhino? hmmm?

See, your problem with making such a bullshit claim rhino is that you don't have to physically step foot in Indonesia to know straight away that its BS. You just have to spend 5 minutes watching just about any news story on Indonesia to see proof of professional working scarf-less women - eg policewomen trying to control a protest, scarf-less journalists at a press conference, etc etc.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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rhino
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #203 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 1:05pm
 
Garuda is an International airline you fool.  And unlike yourself I actually have physically set foot in Indonesia having lived and worked there.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #204 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 1:31pm
 
rhino wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 1:05pm:
Garuda is an International airline you fool.
 

International airline that recruits Indonesian women. And you just assured me that Indonesian women cannot get a job without wearing a scarf.

Soooo - you are now saying that is not actually true?

I could embarass you further by posting picture of all the domestic flight attendants who don't wear hijab, but that would be like kicking a helpless puppy.

Quote:
And unlike yourself I actually have physically set foot in Indonesia having lived and worked there.


So you keep saying. You seem to think it gives some sort of licence to make demonstrably bullshit claims - like the claim that I just refuted with the greatest of ease - with just a single example. As someone so experienced with Indonesian society, surely you must have come across Indonesian police officers. Were they all wearing hijabs? You of course would know that wearing the hijab was actually banned in the police force until 2013 - and even after (grudgingly) lifting the ban after that, their employer (the state) refused to provide the headscarf. Does it seem odd to you rhino that if the scarf really was mandatory in the police force, the state doesn't actually issue it as part of their uniform?

Also, surely for a state institution like the police force, there would need to be some sort of law that mandates the headscarf compulsory - no? Do you know of such a law you can point to me rhino?
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« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2020 at 1:38pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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rhino
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #205 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 2:01pm
 
No, thats not what I said, Re read what i posted carefully and stop erecting strawmen, of course a country trying to present a secular face to the world and trying to cover the fact that they discriminate against minorities is going to be careful with these things that are visible internationally. What really matters is what Indonesian people experience on a daily basis. When you ever visit Indonesia  yourself get back to me. You are totally out of your depth here.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #206 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 2:34pm
 
Honestly rhino, using the "I've been there, so I know" debating method is one of the most pathetic forms of argument.

Its lazy and gives you the delusion that you don't have to make the effort of prosecuting an actual argument with actual evidence.

When were you there? Where exactly did you go? What social or professional circles did you converse in? I highly doubt you experienced all regions and all demographics that makes up the huge and disparate Indonesian society. You must also acknowledge that the context of one's visit to a country - such as the nature of the work or which particular people you associate with during your time there - skews your viewpoint and undoubtedly makes you less objective about your understanding of the society than you would be looking from the outside. I myself regularly visit Malaysia, but I would not pretend to have any great understanding about Malaysian society. My knowledge of the place comes from the friends and family I associate with, and the places those people go. Its obviously skewed by that context, and there are huge chunks of Malaysian society that I am not exposed to and that I wouldn't presume to make sweeping generalisations about just because I can say "I've been there".

rhino wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 2:01pm:
No, thats not what I said, Re read what i posted carefully and stop erecting strawmen


Good point, lets examine your exact words:

Quote:
no female gets a job in Muslim majority Indonesia without wearing at the minimum a headscarf.


I don't see much wriggle room for you there rhino, its pretty black and white - "no female", would mean "every single female" in muslim majority Indonesia - must wear a headscarf to get a job. Which would include your Indonesian flight attendants no?

Am I missing something there?

rhino wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 2:01pm:
What really matters is what Indonesian people experience on a daily basis.


Couldn't agree more. It is the overall mood/situation that counts. And yet, it was you who came out with the blanket claim about every single working woman in (muslim majority) Indonesia. Its not just that its so easy to refute with mere individual examples (like the flight attendants), more importantly it says a lot about your underlying prejudice that you would make such a patently false blanket statement in the first place - and somehow think its ok. And worse, defend it only with the inane "I've been there, you haven't, so there" non-argument.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #207 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 2:45pm
 
Im not interested in pedantism, like I said when you actually have travelled there get back to me. Ive spent time in villages and cities in Muslim and Christian areas, travelled through Sumatera, Java, Sulawesi and many of the smaller islands. I speak fluent Indonesian, have served as a government  translator, understand most of a couple of dialects. Now which one of us is more qualified to talk about what the average Indonesian experiences?
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #208 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 4:23pm
 
...

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #209 - Dec 10th, 2020 at 6:23am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 4:23pm:
https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/google/223...

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*Snort*ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz*Snort*ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Do you suffer from narcolepsy?  Roll Eyes
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