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Alcohol ban Indonesia (Read 14475 times)
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #180 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:20am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:21am:
Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:08am:
Let's make hay while the Sun shines then, ey?


Sure off you go .... I wouldn't go anywhere within Indonesian borders let alone the dive of Bali.


Prior to meeting the bloke I referred to and cited, I had zero intent on going anywhere near the place.  He has changed my mind a tad.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #181 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:01am
 
rhino wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 8:58pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 2:27pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 1:49pm:
Gordon wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 6:01pm:


Have read the OP, and some posts on the first page.  This is a nothing according to one who knows.

My Golf Club has, since Covid, had a huge influx of new Members.  One is a refugee from Bali, an Aussie who has been there for years, and he runs two very well known restaurants in Bali.  He has boarded the businesses up and returned to Australia.

No customers, no business, no income for a great many of Balinese people who worked in those two restaurants.

He said that this alcohol ban thing often comes and goes with secular political groups well in the minority, and will never see the light of day, particularly in Bali where the locals are largely Hindu.

So, don't worry Gordon, you will always be able to get on the piss in Bali (if you can get there and the place is open for business.)


Pretty much as I suspect too.

Islamists have to continually put these sorts of proposals on the table - regardless of whether they think they might succeed or not. They feel like its their duty to their backers, and probably their God. If they fail, then no skin off their noses - their conscience will be clear - "at least we tried".

The reality is, despite the recent onslaught of propaganda from the usual suspects, Indonesia is still fiercely secular, and that doesn't look like changing significantly any time soon.
Remains fiercely secular? Really? Lest see some evidence of that.


Sure, look no further than the 2019 election:

https://www.thejakartapost.com/academia/2019/08/01/poll-results-show-fear-of-isl...

The majority of Indonesians voted for secular/nationalist parties. The parties who had an Islamist platform, combined, reached only 20% of the vote.

In fact this trend was accentuated in this election - despite the scaremongering from the usual suspects that this was going to be the election in which the Islamists would take over.

You might also want to check the series of PEW surveys on muslim attitudes - where Indonesian muslims have some of the most inclusive/secular attitudes in the muslim world.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #182 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 2:34pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:01am:
rhino wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 8:58pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 2:27pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 1:49pm:
Gordon wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 6:01pm:


Have read the OP, and some posts on the first page.  This is a nothing according to one who knows.

My Golf Club has, since Covid, had a huge influx of new Members.  One is a refugee from Bali, an Aussie who has been there for years, and he runs two very well known restaurants in Bali.  He has boarded the businesses up and returned to Australia.

No customers, no business, no income for a great many of Balinese people who worked in those two restaurants.

He said that this alcohol ban thing often comes and goes with secular political groups well in the minority, and will never see the light of day, particularly in Bali where the locals are largely Hindu.

So, don't worry Gordon, you will always be able to get on the piss in Bali (if you can get there and the place is open for business.)


Pretty much as I suspect too.

Islamists have to continually put these sorts of proposals on the table - regardless of whether they think they might succeed or not. They feel like its their duty to their backers, and probably their God. If they fail, then no skin off their noses - their conscience will be clear - "at least we tried".

The reality is, despite the recent onslaught of propaganda from the usual suspects, Indonesia is still fiercely secular, and that doesn't look like changing significantly any time soon.
Remains fiercely secular? Really? Lest see some evidence of that.


Sure, look no further than the 2019 election:

https://www.thejakartapost.com/academia/2019/08/01/poll-results-show-fear-of-isl...

The majority of Indonesians voted for secular/nationalist parties. The parties who had an Islamist platform, combined, reached only 20% of the vote.

In fact this trend was accentuated in this election - despite the scaremongering from the usual suspects that this was going to be the election in which the Islamists would take over.

You might also want to check the series of PEW surveys on muslim attitudes - where Indonesian muslims have some of the most inclusive/secular attitudes in the muslim world.


So who is committing genocide in West Papau .... a land that was non muslim .... and still 62% non muslim .....

the 38% muslims are migrant Javanese.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #183 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 3:44pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 8:01am:
rhino wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 8:58pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 2:27pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 1:49pm:
Gordon wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
Pushing further towards being a total sharia state

https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/11/12/last-call-house-resumes-deliberat...


Have read the OP, and some posts on the first page.  This is a nothing according to one who knows.

My Golf Club has, since Covid, had a huge influx of new Members.  One is a refugee from Bali, an Aussie who has been there for years, and he runs two very well known restaurants in Bali.  He has boarded the businesses up and returned to Australia.

No customers, no business, no income for a great many of Balinese people who worked in those two restaurants.

He said that this alcohol ban thing often comes and goes with secular political groups well in the minority, and will never see the light of day, particularly in Bali where the locals are largely Hindu.

So, don't worry Gordon, you will always be able to get on the piss in Bali (if you can get there and the place is open for business.)


Pretty much as I suspect too.

Islamists have to continually put these sorts of proposals on the table - regardless of whether they think they might succeed or not. They feel like its their duty to their backers, and probably their God. If they fail, then no skin off their noses - their conscience will be clear - "at least we tried".

The reality is, despite the recent onslaught of propaganda from the usual suspects, Indonesia is still fiercely secular, and that doesn't look like changing significantly any time soon.
Remains fiercely secular? Really? Lest see some evidence of that.


Sure, look no further than the 2019 election:

https://www.thejakartapost.com/academia/2019/08/01/poll-results-show-fear-of-isl...

The majority of Indonesians voted for secular/nationalist parties. The parties who had an Islamist platform, combined, reached only 20% of the vote.

In fact this trend was accentuated in this election - despite the scaremongering from the usual suspects that this was going to be the election in which the Islamists would take over.

You might also want to check the series of PEW surveys on muslim attitudes - where Indonesian muslims have some of the most inclusive/secular attitudes in the muslim world.
You might want to check your facts there champ, the current ruling party is certainly not secular. which means the people who voted them in, i.e. the majority did not vote for a secular party.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #184 - Dec 7th, 2020 at 3:53pm
 
Moslems put colonists in Irian Jaya to outbreed and replace the Papuans there. Considered 'Monkeys' - the poorly armed hill tribes and coastals (bows and arrows) are easy fodder for the Moslem troops and police. Being slowly killed off, displaced, shackled and pushed towards the border into PNG. Replaced with homes and communities built by the Moslem government and filled with colonists who work with authorities and military to 'replace' the monkeys who live in the trees.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #185 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 9:14am
 
rhino wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 3:44pm:
You might want to check your facts there champ, the current ruling party is certainly not secular. which means the people who voted them in, i.e. the majority did not vote for a secular party.


The facts are in the article I quoted, champ.

PDI-P is a secular party who has always emphasised nationalism above religion. No one with even a passing knowledge of Indonesian politics would dispute that.

If the 2019 election was a referendum on Islamism in Indonesia (as many outside commentators claimed), then secularism won hands down. The only parties that put Islam front and centre of their platform and agenda scored a paltry 20% of the vote combined. You are probably being deceived by tokenistic gestures like Jokowi choosing an Islamic cleric as his running mate, and his visit to Mecca just before the election. The reality though is that policies on religious issues barely got a look in on the PDI-P election campain, nor was it a feature in any of the public debates.

An understanding of Indonesian society and their attitude to religion requires nuance. While on the one hand they are quite a religious country, they consistently demonstrate a preference for secular leaders to rule their country.

eg - from one study:

Quote:
Analysis of political parties and voters’ attitudes affirmed the view that Indonesians favor parties that represent secular values, rather than parties that are rooted in Islamic principles; however, orientation towards secular politics does not necessitate a less religious or less Islamic population.


https://scholarexchange.furman.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1963&context=furm...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #186 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 12:10pm
 
Jasin wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 3:53pm:
Moslems put colonists in Irian Jaya to outbreed and replace the Papuans there. Considered 'Monkeys' - the poorly armed hill tribes and coastals (bows and arrows) are easy fodder for the Moslem troops and police. Being slowly killed off, displaced, shackled and pushed towards the border into PNG. Replaced with homes and communities built by the Moslem government and filled with colonists who work with authorities and military to 'replace' the monkeys who live in the trees.


No - muslims put colonists into West Papua ..

they changed the name to West Irian then to Irian Jaya.

Always West Papua.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #187 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 12:35pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 9:14am:
You might want to check your facts there champ, the current ruling party is certainly not secular. which means the people who voted them in, i.e. the majority did not vote for a secular party.


The facts are in the article I quoted, champ.

PDI-P is a secular party who has always emphasised nationalism above religion. No one with even a passing knowledge of Indonesian politics would dispute that.

If the 2019 election was a referendum on Islamism in Indonesia (as many outside commentators claimed), then secularism won hands down. The only parties that put Islam front and centre of their platform and agenda scored a paltry 20% of the vote combined. You are probably being deceived by tokenistic gestures like Jokowi choosing an Islamic cleric as his running mate, and his visit to Mecca just before the election. The reality though is that policies on religious issues barely got a look in on the PDI-P election campain, nor was it a feature in any of the public debates.

An understanding of Indonesian society and their attitude to religion requires nuance. While on the one hand they are quite a religious country, they consistently demonstrate a preference for secular leaders to rule their country.

eg - from one study:

Quote:
Analysis of political parties and voters’ attitudes affirmed the view that Indonesians favor parties that represent secular values, rather than parties that are rooted in Islamic principles; however, orientation towards secular politics does not necessitate a less religious or less Islamic population.


https://scholarexchange.furman.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1963&context=furm
...

Posted by: JaSin.  
you dont even know that the Indonesian vice President is a radical Islamist? Like I said, check your facts Champ, the Indonesians voted in a radical Islam agenda. Thats does not make them secular. How about learning some basics first before you argue eh?
Quote:
New Indonesian vice president's Islamist agenda draws scrutiny
Ma'ruf Amin is revered by many but criticized by rights groups
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/New-Indonesian-vice-president-s-Islamist-agenda...
Hardly a token gesture.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #188 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 3:19pm
 
rhino wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 12:35pm:
you dont even know that the Indonesian vice President is a radical Islamist? Like I said, check your facts Champ, the Indonesians voted in a radical Islam agenda. Thats does not make them secular. How about learning some basics first before you argue eh?


Rhino, I feel like you are lashing out hysterically because you know you've been caught out not knowing the basic facts yourself. Like what the PDI-P party actually stands for.

read the jakarta post article yet?

Yes Jokowi chose a cleric with relatively conservative views on social issues as his running mate. But 'radical'? That is of course entirely subjective. In today's vanacular, 'radical' in relation to Islam is usually reserved for those who support violence. Yet he has actually been outspoken against violence, and emphasises the importance of constructive dialogue to settle differences.

Its hardly the point though. Like I said, there was nothing like an Islamist agenda being promoted by any of the major parties during the campaign - least of all by PDI-P. If you asked most PDI-P voters they would probably tell you they would prefer not to have a conservative cleric as Jokowi's running mate - though they still voted for him in spite of that. Logic tells us that the vast majority of these voters voted for the party's secular platform and policies, not some 'radical' Islamist agenda that wasn't even raised during the campaign. As the jakarta post article explains, its likely Jokowi  misread the mood, erroneously thinking that the loud and violent protests that toppled Jakarta governor Ahok was a sign of bigger things to come - and hence why he chose Ma'ruf. In reality, there is little reason to think that Ma'ruf helped him pick up many, if any, extra votes.

Of course thats not to say Indonesia has not seen a surge of Islamism - it undoubtedly has. Yet starting from such a low base, it has a hell of a long way to go before Indonesian society stops being overwhelmingly secular.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #189 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:59pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 7:00am:
Islamic extremism is situated either side of Bali. East/Nth East and West. In fact you could say surrounded.

Ever heard of Aceh? Large full on Islamic/Sharia province.

Remember the big tsunami?

We sent a heap of support over there in the shape of military helicopters & ADF personnel to assist - set up fresh water treatment plants etc.

Locals got very antsy reckoned we were going to take over - potshots taken at our helicopters

Ungrateful, suspicious little bastids.

The point is being made that Muslim/Islamist influence is being slowly asserted in Bali ..... more Muslims living there, more mosques being built...

there is only one way that is heading ... the same as been happening across all Indonesias island territories & colonial occupation of West Papua.

Most of the people who originally occupied the Moluccas/Maluku Islands, formerly the Spice Islands were Melanesians & pagans/animists ......

Javan expansionism has seen that demographic changed virtually completely to Asian Muslim with some pockets of Christianity.....

that is nearly always being persecuted by Muslims.


I did not hear about the Aceh people taking shots at the ADF helicopters. I do accept that there would have been a lot of confusion in the days after the tsunami. But, the media did not seem to be interested in mentioning something newsworthy like this to stir up reader/viewer interest in the subject.

It is the 21st century, Gnads. Muslim influence is waning quite hard these days. With television being a basic necessity even in the most Muslim of areas, the influence of what they see on television will be the downfall of religious influence on the population.

As for Bali, if they want to keep international tourists to come to their region, they will have to make do with allowing the tourists to drink. Otherwise, Bali will have to deal with fewer tourists who are quite happy to remain sober. Perhaps the drunken Aussie tourist is the reason why Bali could be undertaking an alcohol ban.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #190 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 7:18pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 12:10pm:
Jasin wrote on Dec 7th, 2020 at 3:53pm:
Moslems put colonists in Irian Jaya to outbreed and replace the Papuans there. Considered 'Monkeys' - the poorly armed hill tribes and coastals (bows and arrows) are easy fodder for the Moslem troops and police. Being slowly killed off, displaced, shackled and pushed towards the border into PNG. Replaced with homes and communities built by the Moslem government and filled with colonists who work with authorities and military to 'replace' the monkeys who live in the trees.


No - muslims put colonists into West Papua ..

they changed the name to West Irian then to Irian Jaya.

Always West Papua.


Yeah well, its kinda looking more like Irian Jaya, even if West Papua sounds better.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #191 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 7:40pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 3:19pm:
you dont even know that the Indonesian vice President is a radical Islamist? Like I said, check your facts Champ, the Indonesians voted in a radical Islam agenda. Thats does not make them secular. How about learning some basics first before you argue eh?


Rhino, I feel like you are lashing out hysterically because you know you've been caught out not knowing the basic facts yourself. Like what the PDI-P party actually stands for.

read the jakarta post article yet?

Yes Jokowi chose a cleric with relatively conservative views on social issues as his running mate. But 'radical'? That is of course entirely subjective. In today's vanacular, 'radical' in relation to Islam is usually reserved for those who support violence. Yet he has actually been outspoken against violence, and emphasises the importance of constructive dialogue to settle differences.

Its hardly the point though. Like I said, there was nothing like an Islamist agenda being promoted by any of the major parties during the campaign - least of all by PDI-P. If you asked most PDI-P voters they would probably tell you they would prefer not to have a conservative cleric as Jokowi's running mate - though they still voted for him in spite of that. Logic tells us that the vast majority of these voters voted for the party's secular platform and policies, not some 'radical' Islamist agenda that wasn't even raised during the campaign. As the jakarta post article explains, its likely Jokowi  misread the mood, erroneously thinking that the loud and violent protests that toppled Jakarta governor Ahok was a sign of bigger things to come - and hence why he chose Ma'ruf. In reality, there is little reason to think that Ma'ruf helped him pick up many, if any, extra votes.

Of course thats not to say Indonesia has not seen a surge of Islamism - it undoubtedly has. Yet starting from such a low base, it has a hell of a long way to go before Indonesian society stops being overwhelmingly secular.

uh no, Im fully aware of what the PDI -p allegedly stands for. There is however not an  arguement to be had to say they are secular when they have elected a radical Islamist as the vice President. They can call themselves secular all they want and the useful idiots like yourself can chant then same thing but their policies are not secular and neither is their leadership. The Nazis called themselves socialists, we all know how that ended up. As far as Indonesia having a long way to go before being overwhelming secular, no female gets a job in Muslim majority Indonesia without wearing at the minimum a headscarf. Christians and other minorities are increasingly being targeted by violence being overlooked by the government, the latest being a Church bombing in Sulawesi corresponding with the return to Indonesia of this man, Habib Rizieq Shihab a radical Muslim cleric who fled Indonesia to Saudi Arabia 3 years ago on charges of pornography. Strangely enough, after the latest elections   these charges have disappeared and he is free to pursue his hate terrorism.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #192 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 7:53pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:59pm:
 
As for Bali, if they want to keep international tourists to come to their region, they will have to make do with allowing the tourists to drink. Otherwise, Bali will have to deal with fewer tourists who are quite happy to remain sober. Perhaps the drunken Aussie tourist is the reason why Bali could be undertaking an alcohol ban.
Conservative Indonesians hate Bali and the western mainly Australian bogan tourism industry there. Indonesia before Covid was having a big push to target upmarket Muslim tourism from the middle east. They managed to convert at least one major tourist area, Lake Toba from a primarily western tourist destination into a Muslim majority tourist destination before Covid hit. They would dearly .love to do the same to Bali I can assure you.
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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #193 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:31pm
 
rhino wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 12:35pm:
you dont even know that the Indonesian vice President is a radical Islamist?


Really?  According to Wikipedia his views are actually pretty mild:

Quote:
As MUI chair, Ma'ruf gave his support to regulations prohibiting pornography and supported a decree banning Ahmadiya activities. In addition, Ma'ruf "regretted" the Constitutional Court's ruling to reject a proposed ban on sexual activities of homosexuals in 2017, instead wanting "stern regulations".[13]

In 2012, Ma'ruf also issued a recommendation that Muslims not say Merry Christmas, citing the controversy associated with the saying.[14] However, in 2018, he noted that there was never an explicit ban of saying Christmas greetings issued by MUI, after a video of him saying Merry Christmas circulated.[15]

On Islamic terrorism, Ma'ruf stated that suicide bombers are not martyrs (shahid), and that the present time is the era for intellectual instead of physical warfare.[16] During the debates for the 2019 presidential election, he emphasized the importance of deradicalization in counterterrorism.[17]

[Source]

Hardly what I'd call "radical", Rhino.  Sure your Islamophobia isn't in play here?   Roll Eyes


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Re: Alcohol ban Indonesia
Reply #194 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 6:57am
 
Quote:
Of course thats not to say Indonesia has not seen a surge of Islamism - it undoubtedly has. Yet starting from such a low base, it has a hell of a long way to go before Indonesian society stops being overwhelmingly secular.


It takes a lot longer without the beheadings.
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