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Unions create unemployment (Read 3520 times)
Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #75 - Nov 2nd, 2020 at 7:29pm
 
https://theconversation.com/cutting-penalty-rates-was-supposed-to-create-jobs-it...

Quote:
After three years of submissions, hearings and deliberations, Australia’s workplace relations umpire, the Fair Work Commission, decided in 2017 to decrease the penalty rates paid to retail and hospitality workers on the safety-net award for working on Sundays and public holidays.

For years employer groups had argued that high penalty rates (up to double standard pay) were an unaffordable anachronism in the modern economy, and the commission essentially agreed.

In particular, it concluded the evidence was that cutting penalty rates (by between a quarter and a half) would lead to more trading hours and services on offer on Sundays and public holidays,

n other words, reducing penalty rates would create more jobs.


Quote:
Two years on, with cuts to public holiday penalty rates fully implemented and Sundays partially implemented (being introduced over three to four years) how many extra jobs have been created?

Our research suggests basically none.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #76 - Nov 2nd, 2020 at 7:30pm
 
https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/work/2019/07/01/penalty-rate-cuts-jobs-growth...

Quote:
Jobs growth in the retail and hospitality sectors has more than halved since the introduction of Sunday penalty rates, a new study has revealed.

Research by the Centre for Future Work (CFW) confirms that despite being premised on the expectation of increased hours and more jobs, the cuts to Sunday penalties, phased in since July 2017, have coincided with a worsening in jobs growth.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #77 - Nov 2nd, 2020 at 7:45pm
 
https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/work/2019/07/01/penalty-rate-cuts-jobs-growth...

Quote:
Using Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) data, CFW chief economist Dr Jim Stanford found that total employment in the retail sector – Australia’s second-largest employer with 1.3 million people – grew by 0.9 per cent a year in the two years from May 2017 to May 2019.

In the hospitality sector, jobs growth was 1.7 per cent a year for the two-year period.

Dr Stanford said both rates contrasted with the average annual labour market growth of 2.7 per cent over the same period.

The anaemic growth rates were also well down on the growth rates for the two years prior (May 2015 to May 2017) of 2.2 per cent a year and 3.5 per cent a year for the retail and hospitality sectors, respectively.

“Therefore, both compared with other industries, and compared with previous periods of time, job creation in retail and hospitality under lower penalty rates has deteriorated,” Dr Stanford said.


They are all the same nobody has argued that the expected employment increases ever occurred.

ABS data clearly shows that the industry employment was weak compared to both other industries and the previous performance of the hospitality industry.

Nobody has attempted to make any argument that reducing penalty rates didn't damage the hospitality industry - It very clearly did.

The decision was either corrupt or incompetent and almost certainly born from the belief you have quoted as a truism. "Reducing wages will increase employment" - it must someone put it in the year 11 text books.
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« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2020 at 7:53pm by Dnarever »  
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #78 - Nov 2nd, 2020 at 9:44pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 2nd, 2020 at 7:29pm:
https://theconversation.com/cutting-penalty-rates-was-supposed-to-create-jobs-it...

Quote:
After three years of submissions, hearings and deliberations, Australia’s workplace relations umpire, the Fair Work Commission, decided in 2017 to decrease the penalty rates paid to retail and hospitality workers on the safety-net award for working on Sundays and public holidays.

For years employer groups had argued that high penalty rates (up to double standard pay) were an unaffordable anachronism in the modern economy, and the commission essentially agreed.

In particular, it concluded the evidence was that cutting penalty rates (by between a quarter and a half) would lead to more trading hours and services on offer on Sundays and public holidays,

n other words, reducing penalty rates would create more jobs.


Quote:
Two years on, with cuts to public holiday penalty rates fully implemented and Sundays partially implemented (being introduced over three to four years) how many extra jobs have been created?

Our research suggests basically none.


Does that mean "not none"?

Whose research?

Quote:
Jobs growth in the retail and hospitality sectors has more than halved


Half as much jobs growth eh? How do you get from there to zero?

Quote:
They are all the same nobody has argued that the expected employment increases ever occurred.


They have told lots of lies though, haven't you?
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Gnads
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #79 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 1:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 2nd, 2020 at 6:31pm:
Gnads wrote on Nov 2nd, 2020 at 6:30am:
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:45am:
From your article:

Quote:
A new analysis finds the lower rates did not lead to significant new jobs



That quote actually supports the argument that penalty rates didn't create one job.....

And the Small Business Council has admitted it.

You are the liar.


No it doesn't.

Quote:
Especially the one that lobbied and succeeded in attaining a cut to employees wages (penalty rates) and then admitted it didn't help create a single job...


Liar.


You said - I said - you said Roll Eyes

Riveting bullshyte on your behalf.

And the lying bs is squarely in your court of delusion.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #80 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 8:56pm
 
Would you say that this is what passes for honesty from union supporters?

Quote:
Especially the one that lobbied and succeeded in attaining a cut to employees wages (penalty rates) and then admitted it didn't help create a single job...


If you are not lying, show us what he actually said.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #81 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 9:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 2nd, 2020 at 9:44pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 2nd, 2020 at 7:29pm:
https://theconversation.com/cutting-penalty-rates-was-supposed-to-create-jobs-it...

Quote:
After three years of submissions, hearings and deliberations, Australia’s workplace relations umpire, the Fair Work Commission, decided in 2017 to decrease the penalty rates paid to retail and hospitality workers on the safety-net award for working on Sundays and public holidays.

For years employer groups had argued that high penalty rates (up to double standard pay) were an unaffordable anachronism in the modern economy, and the commission essentially agreed.

In particular, it concluded the evidence was that cutting penalty rates (by between a quarter and a half) would lead to more trading hours and services on offer on Sundays and public holidays,

n other words, reducing penalty rates would create more jobs.


Quote:
Two years on, with cuts to public holiday penalty rates fully implemented and Sundays partially implemented (being introduced over three to four years) how many extra jobs have been created?

Our research suggests basically none.


Does that mean "not none"?

Whose research?

Quote:
Jobs growth in the retail and hospitality sectors has more than halved


Half as much jobs growth eh? How do you get from there to zero?

Quote:
They are all the same nobody has argued that the expected employment increases ever occurred.


They have told lots of lies though, haven't you?


Half as much is a negative net outcome. You are just being pedantic about nothing. Job numbers were meant to increase for the current levels of the day including the naturally increasing trend. Instead they went backwards.

Job increases historically running at about 1.9% dropped to 0.9%. i.e there would have been jobs created without the penalty rate change and instead there were less than expected because of the change. Be as pedantic as you like the facts keep on saying you are wrong.

Quote:
Quote:
They are all the same nobody has argued that the expected employment increases ever occurred.


They have told lots of lies though, haven't you?


Not 1. Nit picking and pedantry are not useful at pointing out lies they say more about the claimant.

Can you show an article saying that I am wrong here ? You keep saying nothing and backing it up with less.

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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #82 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 9:25pm
 
Quote:
Job numbers were meant to increase for the current levels of the day including the naturally increasing trend. Instead they went backwards.


This sounds more like your misunderstanding of economic theory than anything anyone actually said.

Quote:
Job increases historically running at about 1.9% dropped to 0.9%. i.e there would have been jobs created without the penalty rate change and instead there were less than expected because of the change. Be as pedantic as you like the facts keep on saying you are wrong.


Based on your lies about what I said. Not what I actually said.

Quote:
Not 1. Nit picking and pedantry are not useful at pointing out lies they say more about the claimant.


There are several of your lies in the OP. Which you followed up with more. Do the unions teach you to equate honesty with pedantry? Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #83 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 3rd, 2020 at 9:25pm:
Quote:
Job numbers were meant to increase for the current levels of the day including the naturally increasing trend. Instead they went backwards.


This sounds more like your misunderstanding of economic theory than anything anyone actually said.




See the difference

You have theory others are talking about fact.

The theory of what should happen V the actual fact of what did happen.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #84 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:22pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:08pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 3rd, 2020 at 9:25pm:
Quote:
Job numbers were meant to increase for the current levels of the day including the naturally increasing trend. Instead they went backwards.


This sounds more like your misunderstanding of economic theory than anything anyone actually said.




See the difference

You have theory others are talking about fact.

The theory of what should happen V the actual fact of what did happen.


You don't have facts. You have words you made up and put into other people's mouths. You have lies from the unions that your parrot unthinkingly.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #85 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:27pm
 
Quote:
Quote:
Jobs growth in the retail and hospitality sectors has more than halved


Half as much jobs growth eh? How do you get from there to zero?


There is no need to get to zero. Half the increase without the change means the reducing penalty rates caused around -50% new jobs in the industry.

Reduced penalty rates delivered less jobs than there would have been.

That is the change did not only not deliver a single job but it cost jobs. It is actually worse if correct.


The claim is that penalty rate cuts didn't produce new jobs not that there were none at all. There were about 50% less than projected less that the trend leading into the change and less that other industries by about the same margin in the same period.

All relevant metrics clearly and loudly say that reducing penalty rates damaged the industry.

Sorry but that is a fact.

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« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:41pm by Dnarever »  
 
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #86 - Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:22pm:
Dnarever wrote on Nov 3rd, 2020 at 10:08pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 3rd, 2020 at 9:25pm:
Quote:
Job numbers were meant to increase for the current levels of the day including the naturally increasing trend. Instead they went backwards.


This sounds more like your misunderstanding of economic theory than anything anyone actually said.




See the difference

You have theory others are talking about fact.

The theory of what should happen V the actual fact of what did happen.


You don't have facts. You have words you made up and put into other people's mouths. You have lies from the unions that your parrot unthinkingly.


I posted 3 articles to support what I said all along. You were invited to produce anything that disagrees. You didn't.

You know your not on a winner when the strong part of your rebuttal consists of insult supported by opinion.

It does not agree with your unsupported ideology so it must be a lie.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #87 - Nov 4th, 2020 at 6:32pm
 
Quote:
There is no need to get to zero. Half the increase without the change means the reducing penalty rates caused around -50% new jobs in the industry.


Yes, this is the sort of simplistic mentality the unions push. What if the number of pirates halved at roughly the same time as some job-related kpi? What would you conclude then?

I'm pretty sure they teach you not to make this mistake in primary school Dna.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #88 - Nov 6th, 2020 at 4:46pm
 
Quote:
Unions create unemployment

Rubbish.

Unemployment is created and maintained by the Federal Government in collusion with the Reserve Bank. This has been the case for decades, under governments from both sides of politics.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #89 - Nov 6th, 2020 at 6:36pm
 
Bam wrote on Nov 6th, 2020 at 4:46pm:
Quote:
Unions create unemployment

Rubbish.

Unemployment is created and maintained by the Federal Government in collusion with the Reserve Bank. This has been the case for decades, under governments from both sides of politics.


Your suggestion that unemployment only has one cause is consistent with all the other BS union propaganda we get here.
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