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Unions create unemployment (Read 3521 times)
freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #15 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:22am
 
Quote:
One doesn't need to interview every single business owner. What you need to do is prove the cuts helped create jobs. None of the evidence shows this.


The fact that you have to resort to such an idiotic analysis of one example in order to claim merely that it might not happen is enough to suggest that you are wrong.

The clincher is that you lie and cannot back up your claims, and you produce evidence that does not actually support your claims.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #16 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:29am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:22am:
The fact that you have to resort to such an idiotic analysis of one example in order to claim merely that it might not happen is enough to suggest that you are wrong.



go on idiot, show me the evidence of all these jobs that cuts to penalty rates created. Cheesy Cheesy
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #17 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:39am
 
You first:

Quote:
But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job


Or you could just admit this was a blatant, transparent, stupid lie.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #18 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:41am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:39am:
You first:



it's your thread .

freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:39am:
Or you could just admit this was a blatant, stupid lie.


no it's not. There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job. If you have any evidence of it go on and put it up
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #19 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:44am
 
Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.


Lying seems to come naturally for you. How do you know this evidence does not exist?

Or do you think being ignorant means you are not lying when you make it up as you go along?

Do you realise that you yourself have posted articles conceding that the rate cuts lead to some new jobs?
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #20 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:46am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:44am:
How do you know this evidence does not exist?


i don't 'know' you have a brain either ... i can only go by what I see.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #21 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:48am
 
Do you realise that you yourself have posted articles conceding that the rate cuts lead to some new jobs? Why do I need to produce evidence to back up what I say when you have done it for me?

And why do you defend unions when doing so requires you to lie out of habit?
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #22 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:51am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:48am:
Do you realise that you yourself have posted articles conceding that the rate cuts lead to some new jobs? Why do I need to produce evidence to back up what I say when you have done it for me?

And why do you defend unions when doing so requires you to lie out of habit?



you're full of poo fd. You want to cherry pick one line, out of a whole statement about the failure to penalty rate cuts to provide work, whilst ignoring the rest of the statement. The only liar is YOU.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #23 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:56am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 7:57am:
You lied Dna. Being more careful with your union-inspired deception now doesn't change this. Here are two lies you told - that there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts, and that the job losses were a result of people "voting with their feet".

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 6:47pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 6:39pm:
Quote:
That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed.


Do you think there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts?


Yes definitely the loss of jobs was industry specific. People walked and it hurt the industry.

The data shows that employees voted with their feet.


Here is another lie. I am not sure what idiotic logic you use to justify it, but it is still a lie.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 8:35pm:
There is a mountain of evidence that shows wage increases do not impact employment numbers, the employer side make the claim with every wage increase and when it happens the outcome fails to support this claim.

The reason is that business will employ the number of people that they need. They do not employ people they don't need when wages are low and they do not sack people that they do need when wages increase.


Dnarever wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 11:44pm:
Quote:
Who but a unionist would believe that  a company only ever needs a fixed amount of employees


Nobody ever said or inferred this. Obviously the numbers vary. The statement that employers do not employ people they don't need or sack people that they do need has nothing to do with a fixed amount of employees but applies to a snapshot situation. Obviously numbers change as the business changes.


Yes, they will change as the business becomes more or less profitable, for example due to changes in award rates.

Quote:
Two of my statements were labelled as lies but they were both 100% correct.


You lied. Now you are pretending you said something else. Let's make it three of your statements, and you are now following it up with more lies.

Quote:
The lead argument on the topic is built on a faulty foundation.


It is built on the most fundamental and universally accepted principle in economics. You should not even need any formal education in economics to understand it. Yet the unions promote ignorance and self delusion in order to reject this principle.

Quote:
Comment 1: No he is correct. Jobs in these industries went down in this period. That is fact.


You are lying on behalf of the unions. Again. You are changing what was said. Why are you so fond of the unions if they need you to lie constantly on their behalf?

Quote:
Comment 2: An increase to the Australian minimum wage has never seen unemployment increase.


Another lie.

Quote:
You hear these economist statements trotted out by the righties year after year


Having half a brain does not make you right wing. Understanding economics does not make you right wing. You delude yourself again if you think half the population rejects these economic principles with you because they are on the left.



The definition of a lie isn't saying something that you disagree with.

Your Economic theory is just that theory, there are real world examples showing that it does not always work and in some areas it has never worked. Miss-applied theory spread with a wide brush  in areas where it wont apply is dangerous.

The example here is penalty rate reductions.

Here it was not possible to build a business model where employing additional staff or opening for additional hours would be viable based on the dynamics of the change.

Opening hours is more dependant on demand, selling nothing for more hours makes no sense and as stated before employing additional people when you have a full roster operating to an optimal level employing people you do not need makes no sense  (increasing overhead for no gain) unless you can drive up demand or properly justify additional hours.

However reducing peoples take home wage does have an impact at the other end where it will have an adverse impact on productivity and make industry employment less desirable to both current and new employees. More difficult to keep current employees and more difficult to onboard quality new employees with the associated costs and adverse performance dynamics and associated business damage and increased overhead costs.

The basis of your economic theory is not incorrect but the issue is that real life is much more complex. There are always other factors and they are often much more dominant.

In this instance the actual outcome lines up with my belief and not the theoretic result based on a single dynamic.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #24 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:57am
 
Your own evidence supports what I say John. It's not cherry picking. It is reality.

You lied. On behalf of unions, you lie, you promote ignorance and self delusion, and you try to dismantle the most fundamental and universally accepted economic principles.

Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.


Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #25 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:04am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:57am:
Your own evidence supports what I say John. It's not cherry picking. It is reality.


no, you're cherry picking. If you have evidence it created work, knock yourself out. Until then, I'll just continue to laugh at your desperation.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #26 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:04am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:57am:
Your own evidence supports what I say John. It's not cherry picking. It is reality.

You lied. On behalf of unions, you lie, you promote ignorance and self delusion, and you try to dismantle the most fundamental and universally accepted economic principles.

Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.


Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.


In the period following the cutting of penalty rates the employment numbers in the industry dropped - This is fact. This is the reality, it is what happened in the real life example.

The theory argues that employment should go up - the measured fact is that employment went down.

This is because the theory does not operate in isolation there are a lot more factors at work than one simplistic fits all cases theory.

It is not a lie to show that you are wrong. You are allowed to not always be correct - we all are.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #27 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:06am
 
Quote:
Your Ecanomic theory is just that theory, there are real world examples showing that it does not always work and in some areas it has never worked. Miss-applied theory spread with a wide brush  in areas where it wont apply is dangerous.


It is a universally accepted principle in economics precisely because it universally reflects reality. Your failure to comprehend the theory and your simple minded misrepresentation of it does not change this.

What is dangerous is the lies and ignorance you promote on behalf of unions. It destroys jobs. It destroys livelihoods.

Quote:
Here it was not possible to build a business model where employing additional staff or opening for additional hours would be viable based on the dynamics of the change.


You are dribbling.

Quote:
However reducing peoples take home wage does have an impact at the other end where it will have an adverse impact on productivity and make industry employment less desirable to both current and new employees.


You pushed this lie before, attributing the jobs decline to people "voting with their feet". It is a lie. You cannot back it up. They lost their jobs because the companies could not afford to continue employing them.

Quote:
The basis of your economic theory is not incorrect but the issue is that real life is much more complex.


It is you, John, Jest and Grapps who make it simple minded to the point of idiocy. You take an example of an industry contracting for reasons other than penalty rates, and try to attribute that contraction to penalty rates. I wholly expect that the reduction in penalty rates was only possible politically because people were staring job losses in the face, and this stark reality forced them to drop the idiotic BS that the unions had been feeding them.

Here is an example of the simple minded idiocy:

Quote:
More difficult to keep current employees and more difficult to onboard quality new employees


Nothing is stopping a company paying above the award to get quality employees.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #28 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:07am
 
John Smith wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:04am:
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:57am:
Your own evidence supports what I say John. It's not cherry picking. It is reality.


no, you're cherry picking. If you have evidence it created work, knock yourself out. Until then, I'll just continue to laugh at your desperation.


Like I said, I have evidence. Your article.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #29 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:08am
 
Dnarever wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 9:04am:
freediver wrote on Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:57am:
Your own evidence supports what I say John. It's not cherry picking. It is reality.

You lied. On behalf of unions, you lie, you promote ignorance and self delusion, and you try to dismantle the most fundamental and universally accepted economic principles.

Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.


Quote:
There isn't any evidence whatsoever that cutting penalty rates created a single job.


In the period following the cutting of penalty rates the employment numbers in the industry dropped - This is fact. This is the reality, it is what happened in the real life example.


But the lies you tell about it are not fact. They are lies.
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