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Unions create unemployment (Read 23758 times)
Gnads
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #120 - Dec 28th, 2020 at 7:59am
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 26th, 2020 at 8:21pm:
The argument is that higher wages produce higher unemployment.

The much argued right wing sacred horse. That has failed to prove to be correct at every scare campaign.

The other end of the deal even if arguable true in theory is that lower paid word equals higher employment. So you get to have more jobs that are not worth having ?

For the poor worker it is a lose lose proposition.

We recently seen this argument used to say that reducing penalty rates would increase employment - fact is that the exact opposite happened in the real world.

We have also seen stagnant wages over the past 2 + decades a situation that in theory should lead to full employment yet again when put into practice we get failure.

We have an economic area where the outcome almost never matches expectation.

As in the argument that Unions create unemployment the theory is solid but the outcomes fail to line up.

You may ask why ? The thing is that the Union impact is only one variable and not a major one. We have had decades of government interfering in the market producing contrived outcomes and dominating the space.


Yes .... spot on.

The LNP nongs don't get that the more money the worker has the better it is for the economy.... and therefore the better it is for their businesses ...

that they think aren't doing well because high wages are holding them back.

It's marvelous how even someone who has been a long time worker(sometimes unionists) & decides to open their own business then all of a sudden adopt a Tory attitude toward workers & wages.

Greed & poor business models are usually their downfall.

Think people should be grateful & owe them for giving them a job.

The old Master/Serf mentality.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #121 - Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:22am
 
Quote:
The argument is that higher wages produce higher unemployment.


Artificially high wages do.

Quote:
The much argued right wing sacred horse. That has failed to prove to be correct at every scare campaign.


It is fundamental economics. Some people even learn this in high school.

It appears that in order to be a union clingon, you must throw not just economics out the window, but common sense.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #122 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 10:53am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2020 at 6:18am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 4th, 2020 at 12:34pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:17pm:
Quote:
twist all the evidence presented to him that refutes the BS claim into a useless hair splitting exercise about semantics


If the evidence does not refute my claim, it is not hair splitting Gandalf. i did not ask for evidence that merely "feels" like it refutes my claim. This is a basic union trick, to get people to ignore facts and shout lies loudly enough to delude themselves.


Your claim is simplistic and stupid.

It totally ignores the demonstrated ability of unions to successfully negotiate agreements that counteract such negative impacts as unemployment - like how Australia's unions did when they negotiated the Accord. An agreement that actually reduced unemployment:

Quote:
The first Accord secured for all workers a 4.3% pay rise (September 1983), a 4.1% pay rise (April 1984), and a deferred 2.6% pay rise over the initial 3-year period, improvements in family payments and child care, and the introduction of Medicare. Unemployment also fell from over 10% (in the 2nd quarter of 1983) to just under 8%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prices_and_Incomes_Accord


You say my claim is simplistic and stupid, then follow up by trying to credit unions with that decrease in unemployment? Do you realise how hypocritical that is Gandalf?


You are merely reinforcing how simplistic and stupid your argument is FD.

I don't need to, (nor is it my intention by citing these statistics to), credit unions with decreasing unemployment.

All I need to do (and which I succeeded doing), is to cite one relevant instance of a major union-driven wage increase agreement, applied nationally across the board demonstrably did *NOT* increase unemployment. And suddenly your BS simplistic claim is in tatters.

Of course if your argument had been even a smidgen above the most simplistic and stupid level, and offerend some nuance like "unions create unemployment - *UNLESS* they negotiate wage increases in a responsible and constructive way with a careful eye on potential impacts such as inflation and unemployment *AS THEY DID UNDER THE 1983 AUSTRALIAN LABOUR ACCORD* - then you would have about a million miles more credibility.

But of course you didn't.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #123 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 11:05am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:22am:
It is fundamental economics. Some people even learn this in high school.

It appears that in order to be a union clingon, you must throw not just economics out the window, but common sense.


Your union clingons are the only ones who have actual evidence to support their argument. In this case slashing penalty rates (no resultant increase in employment) and the 1983 accord (national union-driven wage increase - no resultant increase in unemployment.

What evidence have you brought us FD?

No, seriously... what actual evidence?
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #124 - Jan 11th, 2021 at 6:40am
 
Quote:
All I need to do (and which I succeeded doing), is to cite one relevant instance of a major union-driven wage increase agreement, applied nationally across the board demonstrably did *NOT* increase unemployment. And suddenly your BS simplistic claim is in tatters.


This is simplistic and stupid Gandalf.

Correlation does not equal causation.
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #125 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 9:19am
 
Gandalf do you understand that this is no less juvenile than blaming the GFC, or a volcanic eruption, on whatever party happened to be in power at the time?
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #126 - Feb 8th, 2021 at 6:57pm
 
Bump for Gandalf.
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Gnads
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #127 - Feb 9th, 2021 at 12:09pm
 
This already had rigor mortis now putrefaction has set in.....

time to bury your stinker FD.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #128 - Feb 22nd, 2021 at 6:25pm
 
Gnads wrote on Feb 9th, 2021 at 12:09pm:
This already had rigor mortis now putrefaction has set in.....

time to bury your stinker FD.


What exactly do you want me to bury?
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Gnads
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #129 - Feb 23rd, 2021 at 8:22am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 6:25pm:
Gnads wrote on Feb 9th, 2021 at 12:09pm:
This already had rigor mortis now putrefaction has set in.....

time to bury your stinker FD.


What exactly do you want me to bury?


You have no sense of smell?
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #130 - Feb 27th, 2021 at 8:59am
 
Sure. I smell roses. They are perennial.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #131 - Feb 27th, 2021 at 12:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:22am:
Quote:
The argument is that higher wages produce higher unemployment.


Artificially high wages do.



Can you explain why several decades of artificially low wages have not produced lower unemployment ?
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #132 - Feb 27th, 2021 at 12:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2020 at 7:53pm:
Quote:
Bad governments create unemployment as a policy base for their personal ideologies....


Particularly if they don't keep the unions under control.


Back in the Frasor day with Howard as treasurer and unions being squashed he applied the theory that high unemployment would control wages and solve inflation. Instead he managed to drive into stagflation. (high inflation, high unemployment and low growth).

It was a masterclass in dogma driven incompetence

Howard had deliberately executed policy meant to drive unemployment higher to this failed dogmatic outcome is

Virtually the same argument you are pushing here.

Not only does this not work in the real world now but it has never worked.

Yes Howard had at least two Liberal governments thrown out of office and prevented at least one from being elected.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #133 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 6:40pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Feb 27th, 2021 at 12:09pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:22am:
Quote:
The argument is that higher wages produce higher unemployment.


Artificially high wages do.



Can you explain why several decades of artificially low wages have not produced lower unemployment ?


Unemployment is lower than it would be if wages were higher, and higher than it would be if wages were lower.
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Dnarever
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #134 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 7:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 6:40pm:
Dnarever wrote on Feb 27th, 2021 at 12:09pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 11:22am:
Quote:
The argument is that higher wages produce higher unemployment.


Artificially high wages do.



Can you explain why several decades of artificially low wages have not produced lower unemployment ?


Unemployment is lower than it would be if wages were higher, and higher than it would be if wages were lower.


Wages have been stagnant for many years. Unemployment should be virtually non existent if your theory held water.

There are employers out there that have sent 3 companies bankrupt since the last time they had to pay a substantial wages increase.
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