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Unions increase inequality (Read 5709 times)
freediver
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Unions increase inequality
Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am
 
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #1 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.

Which now having lived Milton's dream for the last 40 years I can honestly say that its the biggest load of malarkey ever spun to the general population, trickle down economics does not work.

As for unions..............!?............even though there is corruption and what not.

Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions Cheesy Wink Smiley


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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #2 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 1:09pm
 
Precisley Ajax.

The gov of Australia is a union. Milton's theory is blown to pieces by that lot hey.... Grin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #3 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 1:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions
market forces
inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


Impossible under our 'industrial relations' system.... very socialist as it is....

Those market forces are precisely the same as the 'conservatives' constantly harp on when discussing the latest way to rort workers - only these market forces come from the 'other' side of the equation, with its perpetual need to play catch-up with rising costs of living due to piss-poor management at all levels all the way to PM (not least of which abysmal failures is 'privatisation' with its escalating costs to the end user)....

Hard to take when the same market forces you preach as reason to chop your workers and starve their families of hope and even food, are suddenly seen to be a universal and many-sided issue that apply to all ...   Grin  Grin

A good thing this is only a 'thought bubble' from Friedman.... that's about as far as it goes.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #4 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #5 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 6:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it


how many did you ask?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #6 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.


What crap Freediver. Truth is Milton Friedman was not an economist, he was a propagandist and the thing with the tripe he peddled as economics, most the time the opposite of what he said was true such as tax cuts for the rich will trickle down. But Ajax has already made this point
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #7 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:12pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions



no, FD lives in lala land. He thinks we'd have those conditions even without unions. Funnily enough, when I asked him to name one country with no unions who enjoy the same benefits we do, he ran away ....  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:17pm
 
John Smith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:12pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions



no, FD lives in lala land. He thinks we'd have those conditions even without unions. Funnily enough, when I asked him to name one country with no unions who enjoy the same benefits we do, he ran away ....  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


lala land = Queensland.  Wink
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #9 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 9:06pm
 
Unions in the USA have been largely wiped out (expect for police and unions). Has wage equality increased?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #10 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:02pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:09pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.


What crap Freediver. Truth is Milton Friedman was not an economist, he was a propagandist and the thing with the tripe he peddled as economics, most the time the opposite of what he said was true such as tax cuts for the rich will trickle down. But Ajax has already made this point


You are being irrational. He could be some drunk I met down at the pub. He would still be right. I try to give credit to an idea that is not mine, and you all lose the plot. Not a single one of you is capable of addressing the topic, simple as it is.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #11 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:23pm
 
Australians don't want pay rises and benefits from Unions holding up Trade and costing the Australian Economy businesses sweating on the Shipments to and fro - probably costing other people's jobs too.
They want jobs.
The Yankee Unionists call these desperate people for work as 'SCABS', when really these Unionists are just
'GRUBS'
trying to 'lock down' the Economy in their own way. Flying their cheesy Eureka Stockade Flag that was brought about by a bunch of North American Miners in Victoria who didn't like the British System here telling them what to do.

Need to give these Unionists the Shackleton treatment.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #12 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:34pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.

Which now having lived Milton's dream for the last 40 years I can honestly say that its the biggest load of malarkey ever spun to the general population, trickle down economics does not work.

As for unions..............!?............even though there is corruption and what not.

Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions Cheesy Wink Smiley



Sounds like 'slavery'.
Maybe you should say "There may be a market of jobs that offer 16 hour days, no sickies, etc for peanuts. As there is today. But there are many jobs out there that offer the 'best' workers, not necessary the 'union' workers a chance to work just 4 hours a day for 4 times as much as peanuts. There are jobs that offer much much more than what a Union can provide. "
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #13 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:00am
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:34pm:
Sounds like 'slavery'.
Maybe you should say "There may be a market of jobs that offer 16 hour days, no sickies, etc for peanuts. As there is today. But there are many jobs out there that offer the 'best' workers, not necessary the 'union' workers a chance to work just 4 hours a day for 4 times as much as peanuts. There are jobs that offer much much more than what a Union can provide. "


So - not necessarily the non-union workers?

Why the ideological slant?  Be honest - without union activism in the past your pay rate would be Gina's $10 a day... and it's not only the Union workers who cop 4 hours a day etc ... it's the bloody lot in any given circumstance...

What IS your problem with unions that give you a safety net from predatory management?

Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #14 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:09am
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:23pm:
Australians don't want pay rises and benefits from Unions holding up Trade and costing the Australian Economy businesses sweating on the Shipments to and fro - probably costing other people's jobs too.
They want jobs.
The Yankee Unionists call these desperate people for work as 'SCABS', when really these Unionists are just
'GRUBS'
trying to 'lock down' the Economy in their own way. Flying their cheesy Eureka Stockade Flag that was brought about by a bunch of North American Miners in Victoria who didn't like the British System here telling them what to do.

Need to give these Unionists the Shackleton treatment.



Jesus, son - the unions aren't 'holding up trade' - the reality is the entire trade economy on the global market is stuffed - and you well know it...

You amaze me - on the one hand you crow that the unions have no real power and are being steadily chopped of their membership = no real power - yet you somehow seem to want to imagine that union activism to retain wages and conditions is stopping the whole world...

That's like Mothra The Absent Since I Sliced Her.... your rationale doesn't hold up to the light of day, any more than her 'job' getting Indigenous kids to school and monitoring violence in Indigenous communities, while lamenting the disproportionate rate of incarceration as 'racist, while still saying that up to 90% of the problems are not reported and the authorities don't respond in any case...   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes 
(HOW is the rate of incarceration disproportionate when 90% of the offences are not reported and the official response is hardly seen anyway?  That means the incarceration rate is way LOW for the given rate of offending.)


You suffer the same lack of credibility and reason as the 'left' here - although your stance is decidedly 'right' ...

Just goes to show - NONE of the idiotologies has the answers for MY country, least of all the 'rightist' ones..... at least the leftists pretend to be looking out for the common person while seeking to feather their own nests first...
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #15 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:52am
 
Perhaps Grapps et al do not even realise this is a different thread with a different topic.

freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #16 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am
 
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union and our pay is good, although since the GFC the pay hasn’t been as good as it was before the GFC.

My dad was in a union he was a production worker and he used to tell me what those guys had to go through to get a pay rise.

As an individual you stood no chance as a collective you got some peanuts to keep you close to the rise of the cost of living.

As for Milton Friedman and his ideologies at the University of Chicago, through his international students he first implemented his brand of economics (neo-liberalism) in nations that had dictators and it didn’t go so well all these nations went bust.

Neoliberalism puts corporations above nations and that is not good for anyone especially the average man and woman because a hand full of greedy men running a corporation only  worry about their bottom line and not what’s happening to the average Joe and Jacinta out there in the real world.

Keynesian economics was in place after WW2 and most nations thrived, since the late 60’s early 70’s Milton was trying to overthrow this form of capitalism with his own neo-liberalism.

Thatcher, Reagan and here in Australia the Hawke/Keating government did away with Keynesian economics and adopted Milton’s neo-liberalism.

That’s when the best treasurer in the world Mr Keating floated our dollar which dropped down to half the value of the green back and then the seagulls (oligarchy) swooped in to Australia and bought up most public assets for half price.

The oligarchy don’t bestow you with the best treasure in the world crown unless you sell your country to them for peanuts. Followed by twits such as Jeff Kennett and John Howard who added to the damage.

And now after 40 odd years we have a corporatocracy where corporations rule the land instead of governments.

Example

Before we sold of our electricity we had the cheapest power on the planet, now after privatization we have one of the most expensive and there are many more examples, but you get the picture.

Now this BULLSHIT that everyone has bought into that if the state owns it its communism is the biggest malarkey ever.

When our government owned our public assets were we a communist nation………..???
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #17 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:05am
 
Wow. That was a really long post Ajax. All of it completely irrelevant to the topic of course.

Is it that you recognise the truth in what I post, but strongly and sincerely wish it were not true, leading to your compulsion to post something in response, combined with your reluctance to think about and address the topic?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #18 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


The right spread all sorts of propaganda like this - It is better to earn less everyone is better off. 3.5 seconds later they are supporting management increases?

Unions have improved a lot of things in conditions and pay across the board, saying anything different is just dishonest.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #19 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #20 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:16am
 
Don't you just like how the Unions scuttle a business by using the business's own workers to cause the mutiny right at crucial or crises moments.
Just when you're trying to escape the Mafia, the Union rep takes the keys to the escape vehicle.

Conan never needed a Union Rep as a Labourer with a slice of sharp metal and a price for female pleasure.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #21 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:52am:
Perhaps Grapps et al do not even realise this is a different thread with a different topic.

freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?

John Howard as treasurer tried this around 1977,78 as treasurer to fight inflation / stagflation. The Howard / Freedman belief was that increasing unemployment  (increasing demand for employment) would force wages pressure down and correct for inflation. The result was that we got higher unemployment and increased inflation - it not only didn't work the exact opposite happened.

Each and every time this Freedmen theory has been tested it failed.

Conclusion: The Freedmen's should stick to training horses.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #22 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:21am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:05am:
Wow. That was a really long post Ajax. All of it completely irrelevant to the topic of course.

Is it that you recognise the truth in what I post, but strongly and sincerely wish it were not true, leading to your compulsion to post something in response, combined with your reluctance to think about and address the topic?


So does that mean that when the lecturer Milton Friedman at the University of Chicago got his yearly appraisal and then a higher remuneration for his good services an aspiring lecturer for the University of Chicago would lose a spot?

And go into another industry making the wages lower for that industry and its workers....?

No not at all..!

It means that the next time they have to employ a lecturer at the University of Chicago  that individual depending upon his or her experience would start off on a higher rate.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #23 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:23am
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


The right spread all sorts of propaganda like this - It is better to earn less everyone is better off. 3.5 seconds later they are supporting management increases?

Unions have improved a lot of things in conditions and pay across the board, saying anything different is just dishonest.


Yep, CEO's get millions but the workers asking for a pay rise will ruin the company....LMFAO.

FD you have truly been brainwashed.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #24 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:23am
 
Historically and going forward Unions have probably been and will continue to be the single greatest impediment to inequality.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #25 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #26 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:29am
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am:
Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?


Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

What exactly is your difficulty with this concept?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #27 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:30am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:29am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am:
Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?


Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

What exactly is your difficulty with this concept?


Yes this is what happens when you allow corporations to take their business off shore to use slave labor.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #28 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #29 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:34am
 
Unions are for those who 'have to' work in crap jobs that make them feel that they need to gain more from the job for lack of their own achievability to get to the top.
Unions are for those who 'have to' work 16 hours a day with no sickies and for peanuts.

In Australia - people don't 'have to' work for such businesses. Australia is getting rid of businesses (like mass production manufacturing) that supply these sort of workers that the Unions go for - like cheap Asian Labour and illegal immigrant workers. We don't need that kind here.

I work from 2 to 6 hours a day with a very high pay rate than my 'average' over life. I work when I want to which is usually just 3 days a week. Sometimes I take the odd 'week' off. So far I've only had to work 'naked' for the women twice. My long blonde hair hanging in ringlets of wet. My taunt skin glistening with man sweat. The women rubbing their legs like crickets at the sight of my tight buttocks as I vaccuum their floors, do their dishes and all the 'simple' jobs women have to do. I get paid to make women wet watching a buff 50 year old naked sex god like me - do the ironing. Oh yeah - I work 'hard'  Grin
I have my ethics though. I don't cross the line and sire kids for young women who see me as their 'daddy' issue answer.

Yeah - who needs a Union.
Working 'Australian' style like a convict is much better.  Wink
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #30 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:30am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:29am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am:
Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?


Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

What exactly is your difficulty with this concept?


Yes this is what happens when you allow corporations to take their business off shore to use slave labor.


So you think what I say is true, but you don't want it to be true?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #31 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.



There are many unions that cover people working in engineering, oil and gas, mining, industrial etc.

Mainly for the blue collars.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #32 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:37am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.



There are many unions that cover people working in engineering, oil and gas, mining, industrial etc.

Mainly for the blue collars.


I assure you, there is a Union that covers you.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #33 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:39am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:30am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:29am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am:
Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?


Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

What exactly is your difficulty with this concept?


Yes this is what happens when you allow corporations to take their business off shore to use slave labor.


So you think what I say is true, but you don't want it to be true?


This is for any industry not just unions and their members.

If the University of Chicago wanted a new lecturer and they were hard to come across it might increase the pay to finally get one.

If there are too many lecturers on the market then there will be no additional increase.

Same goes for baristas, waiters etc etc
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #34 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:40am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:37am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.



There are many unions that cover people working in engineering, oil and gas, mining, industrial etc.

Mainly for the blue collars.


I assure you, there is a Union that covers you.



Well maybe there is but I have not heard of it and neither have any of my colleagues.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #35 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:43am
 
Ajax he is probably referring to APESMA, IEAUST etc.

Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:39am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:30am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:29am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am:
Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?


Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

What exactly is your difficulty with this concept?


Yes this is what happens when you allow corporations to take their business off shore to use slave labor.


So you think what I say is true, but you don't want it to be true?


This is for any industry not just unions and their members.

If the University of Chicago wanted a new lecturer and they were hard to come across it might increase the pay to finally get one.

If there are too many lecturers on the market then there will be no additional increase.

Same goes for baristas, waiters etc etc


So you think what I say is true, but you don't want it to be true?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #36 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:44am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:40am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:37am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.



There are many unions that cover people working in engineering, oil and gas, mining, industrial etc.

Mainly for the blue collars.


I assure you, there is a Union that covers you.



Well maybe there is but I have not heard of it and neither have any of my colleagues.


One quick call to the ACTU, and they'll tell you which Union it is.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #37 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:47am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:43am:
Ajax he is probably referring to APESMA, IEAUST etc.


Ok fair enough, the IEAUST is not a union.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:43am:
Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

So you think what I say is true, but you don't want it to be true?


That statement is true for any industry.

Your assumption and Milton's theory in the OP are wrong.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #38 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:48am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:44am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:40am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:37am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.



There are many unions that cover people working in engineering, oil and gas, mining, industrial etc.

Mainly for the blue collars.


I assure you, there is a Union that covers you.



Well maybe there is but I have not heard of it and neither have any of my colleagues.


One quick call to the ACTU, and they'll tell you which Union it is.



Ok Gregg I believe you.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #39 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:52am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:29am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:19am:
Quote:
seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries.


People seeking employment drives down wages ?


Yes. If the number of jobseekers goes down, wages inevitably rise. If they go up, wages go down.

What exactly is your difficulty with this concept?


It is highly dominated by other factors and in practice does not tend to produce the expected result.

You regularly see employers whine about the lack of employable resources and do not see any increase in wage levels.

One great example may be farm workers you hobby horse where a lack of employees has led to government intervention and cheap off shore labour. The exact opposite of the claim.

Over a lifetime the facts refute the theory very consistently.


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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #40 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:55am
 
Quote:
Your assumption and Milton's theory in the OP are wrong.


Why do you think that?

Quote:
It is highly dominated by other factors and in practice does not tend to produce the expected result.

You regularly see employers whine about the lack of employable resources and do not see any increase in wage levels.


You are confusing spin with reality. I am talking about the reality.

Quote:
One great example may be farm workers you hobby horse where a lack of employees has led to government intervention and cheap off shore labour. The exact opposite of the claim.


This is not the exact opposite. It is entirely consistent with my claim.

By the way, I once had a union rep tell me that allowing more foreigners to enter the Australian workforce in their sector of the economy will increase wages.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #41 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:56am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:48am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:44am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:40am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:37am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:35am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:32am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:25am:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:06am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:59am:
First I’m not in a union my profession has no union ...


Of course you have a union.

What industry is it?


Lets just say engineering......... Wink

Anymore and I'll have to kill you.


Well, there is both a Union and a Modern Award that covers you.



There are many unions that cover people working in engineering, oil and gas, mining, industrial etc.

Mainly for the blue collars.


I assure you, there is a Union that covers you.



Well maybe there is but I have not heard of it and neither have any of my colleagues.


One quick call to the ACTU, and they'll tell you which Union it is.



Ok Gregg I believe you.


Can be overed by the industry.

An example would be TV broadcast engineering, covered by the various broadcast awards and relevant unions.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #42 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:58am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:55am:
Quote:
Your assumption and Milton's theory in the OP are wrong.


Why do you think that?


Because I've been in the industry for 36 years.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #43 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:00am
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:56am:
Can be overed by the industry.

An example would be TV broadcast engineering, covered by the various broadcast awards and relevant unions.


No not in a union, not covered by a union, don't pay any fees to one.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #44 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:10am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:55am:
Quote:
Your assumption and Milton's theory in the OP are wrong.


Why do you think that?

Quote:
It is highly dominated by other factors and in practice does not tend to produce the expected result.

You regularly see employers whine about the lack of employable resources and do not see any increase in wage levels.


You are confusing spin with reality. I am talking about the reality.

Quote:
One great example may be farm workers you hobby horse where a lack of employees has led to government intervention and cheap off shore labour. The exact opposite of the claim.


This is not the exact opposite. It is entirely consistent with my claim.

By the way, I once had a union rep tell me that allowing more foreigners to enter the Australian workforce in their sector of the economy will increase wages.


Not if they are consigned to an under minimum wage exemption.

Quote:
You are confusing spin with reality. I am talking about the reality.


Which is shown by you sticking with unsupported technical theory where and I show real life examples ?

As a wage driver employment demand is one factor.

Balanced against this is:

Affordability.
Economic conditions
Government intervention. (IR)

IR:

The major changes in 1996, 1997, work choices,  Fair Work, Penalty rates decision  etc all worked to drive wage levels down and often crushing the other wage level drivers in the process.

Government IR policy for many decades has been dominated by a desire to prevent other factors having an impact of wage levels and has been successful.

This isn't a secret the Howard government for example openly bragged about their success on wage control.

This means that they were proud of their efforts to stymie market drivers on wages.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #45 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:14am
 
I'ld like to see work choices implemented to politicians.

The people would vote on whether or not they get a pay rise at the every election.

They maybe waiting for quite a while.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #46 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:41am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:58am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:55am:
Quote:
Your assumption and Milton's theory in the OP are wrong.


Why do you think that?


Because I've been in the industry for 36 years.



So what?

Quote:
Which is shown by you sticking with unsupported technical theory where and I show real life examples ?


As I have pointed out, the theory is not unsupported. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Furthermore, your "real life examples" support the theory and merely demonstrate your lack of understanding of the fundamentals.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #47 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:57am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:41am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:58am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:55am:
Quote:
Your assumption and Milton's theory in the OP are wrong.


Why do you think that?


Because I've been in the industry for 36 years.



So what?

Quote:
Which is shown by you sticking with unsupported technical theory where and I show real life examples ?


As I have pointed out, the theory is not unsupported. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Furthermore, your "real life examples" support the theory and merely demonstrate your lack of understanding of the fundamentals.


Supported or not - it is a silly theory and extremist as well as being elitist.  There are far more factors that increase inequality than any rises in pay ... besides which - the Unions here stand by the principle that they work for all workers and not just their members, so it is nothing to do with Unions in that sense anyway.

First we have to believe that paying correctly is the cause of low employment in a given industry - which is demonstrable nonsense given that an industry needs a certain number of employees to function properly, and cutting the numbers is cutting their own throat.

It's a half-baked propaganda piece for the employer groups with their incessant whining about the costs of labour while they live off the fattest in the land.

It is in fact the cost of industry and shareholding that causes inequality... business are always welcome to cut costs so that ordinary people don't need more income just to get by, but while ever there are get-rich-quick merchants running their shows, this will never change.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #48 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:10am
 
For FD


Quote:

Economics:

1. the branch of knowledge concerned with the production, consumption, and transfer of wealth
2. the condition of a region or group as regards material prosperity.

Economist:

a person who studies or has a special knowledge of economics

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #49 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:45am
 
Quote:
Supported or not - it is a silly theory and extremist as well as being elitist
.

So you agree that it is true, but you don't like the truth?

Quote:
the Unions here stand by the principle that they work for all workers and not just their members, so it is nothing to do with Unions in that sense anyway.


So only in principle, not in practice?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #50 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:45am:
Quote:
Supported or not - it is a silly theory and extremist as well as being elitist
.

So you agree that it is true, but you don't like the truth?

Quote:
the Unions here stand by the principle that they work for all workers and not just their members, so it is nothing to do with Unions in that sense anyway.


So only in principle, not in practice?


Not at all - support can mean anything... I have the full support of the Volksrat for the gassing of homosexuals.....
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #51 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 1:16pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:25pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:45am:
Quote:
Supported or not - it is a silly theory and extremist as well as being elitist
.

So you agree that it is true, but you don't like the truth?

Quote:
the Unions here stand by the principle that they work for all workers and not just their members, so it is nothing to do with Unions in that sense anyway.


So only in principle, not in practice?


Not at all - support can mean anything... I have the full support of the Volksrat for the gassing of homosexuals.....


I wouldn't go so far as to equate the unions with Nazis. The Nazis fully intended the outcome they created. The unions act more out of ignorance.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #52 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 3:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 1:16pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:25pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:45am:
Quote:
Supported or not - it is a silly theory and extremist as well as being elitist
.

So you agree that it is true, but you don't like the truth?

Quote:
the Unions here stand by the principle that they work for all workers and not just their members, so it is nothing to do with Unions in that sense anyway.


So only in principle, not in practice?


Not at all - support can mean anything... I have the full support of the Volksrat for the gassing of homosexuals.....


I wouldn't go so far as to equate the unions with Nazis. The Nazis fully intended the outcome they created. The unions act more out of ignorance.



It's not the unions I'm comparing mit der Nazis - it's Herr Volksturmer Friedman.... he undoubtedly acts out of ignorance.........
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #53 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 5:12pm
 
Quote:
he undoubtedly acts out of ignorance


Ignorance of your delicate feelings, or ignorance of the truth?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #54 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 5:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:02pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:09pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.


What crap Freediver. Truth is Milton Friedman was not an economist, he was a propagandist and the thing with the tripe he peddled as economics, most the time the opposite of what he said was true such as tax cuts for the rich will trickle down. But Ajax has already made this point


You are being irrational. He could be some drunk I met down at the pub. He would still be right. I try to give credit to an idea that is not mine, and you all lose the plot. Not a single one of you is capable of addressing the topic, simple as it is.


But of course he isn't right. Milton Friedman set the model for those so called neoliberal "think tanks" and "institutes" that are really propaganda cells. The IPA and Cato institute are typical examples. He showed them that you can concoct a BS argument to get to any conclusion you want. You just have to have the balls to deliver it with a straight face. And it doesn't matter that the argument is not convincing because what it does is gives those of their persuasion an argument to disseminate widely and when they keep repeating it, those on the fence think "well I hear it so often it must be true".
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #55 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 5:36pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 5:13pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:02pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:09pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.


What crap Freediver. Truth is Milton Friedman was not an economist, he was a propagandist and the thing with the tripe he peddled as economics, most the time the opposite of what he said was true such as tax cuts for the rich will trickle down. But Ajax has already made this point


You are being irrational. He could be some drunk I met down at the pub. He would still be right. I try to give credit to an idea that is not mine, and you all lose the plot. Not a single one of you is capable of addressing the topic, simple as it is.


But of course he isn't right. Milton Friedman set the model for those so called neoliberal "think tanks" and "institutes" that are really propaganda cells. The IPA and Cato institute are typical examples. He showed them that you can concoct a BS argument to get to any conclusion you want. You just have to have the balls to deliver it with a straight face. And it doesn't matter that the argument is not convincing because what it does is gives those of their persuasion an argument to disseminate widely and when they keep repeating it, those on the fence think "well I hear it so often it must be true". 


You are still being irrational jest, still afraid to discuss the merits of the claim.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #56 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #57 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #58 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.

 
Grin Your truth does not equate to actual truth.... & what's unpalatable is ... your truth is a lie.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #59 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 8:25pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:50pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.

 
Grin Your truth does not equate to actual truth.... & what's unpalatable is ... your truth is a lie.


I think the following is the most appropriate response to FD's "alternative truth"


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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #60 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:00pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:50pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.

 
Grin Your truth does not equate to actual truth.... & what's unpalatable is ... your truth is a lie.


And yet you can do no more than sprout gibberish in response.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #61 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #62 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 5:58am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 10:00pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:50pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.

 
Grin Your truth does not equate to actual truth.... & what's unpalatable is ... your truth is a lie.


And yet you can do no more than sprout gibberish in response.


According to you..... & that means zilch.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #63 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #64 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #65 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #66 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am
 
FD your argument is a fallacy because by and large good companies give their employees an appraisal every year and with that comes higher salaries and wages, unions are only needed when

employers will not give their employees a rise under any circumstances.

So it’s not the unions that are creating this inequality you assume but rather the corporations themselves by the yearly appraisal.

Now don’t tell me Milton didn’t look forward to his annual increase every year.

OR did Milton have one law for himself and another for those not as privileged as he.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #67 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:24am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
FD your argument is a fallacy because by and large good companies give their employees an appraisal every year and with that comes higher salaries and wages, unions are only needed when

employers will not give their employees a rise under any circumstances.

So it’s not the unions that are creating this inequality you assume but rather the corporations themselves by the yearly appraisal.

Now don’t tell me Milton didn’t look forward to his annual increase every year.

OR did Milton have one law for himself and another for those not as privileged as he.


So you think I must be wrong because wage inequality only has one cause - the one that unions constantly bleat about?

Your first two sentences directly contradict each other. Would you like to clarify what you were actually trying to say?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #68 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:32am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:24am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
FD your argument is a fallacy because by and large good companies give their employees an appraisal every year and with that comes higher salaries and wages, unions are only needed when

employers will not give their employees a rise under any circumstances.

So it’s not the unions that are creating this inequality you assume but rather the corporations themselves by the yearly appraisal.

Now don’t tell me Milton didn’t look forward to his annual increase every year.

OR did Milton have one law for himself and another for those not as privileged as he.


So you think I must be wrong because wage inequality only has one cause - the one that unions constantly bleat about?

Your first two sentences directly contradict each other. Would you like to clarify what you were actually trying to say?


Your starting to sound like a teenager who has no experience.

Your the one assuming causation.

I'm telling you unions are not needed unless the employer will not give his employees a rise under any circumstances.

Then the people trapped in this paradigm have no option but to call in the union, because if an individual acts on his or her own more than likely they will be sacked at a latter date in the future for some reason or another.

So these people call in the union and the union does the talking for them, the company cannot sack the union representative.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #69 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:55am
 
Contradiction:

Quote:
Your the one assuming causation.


Quote:
So it’s not the unions that are creating this inequality you assume but rather the corporations themselves by the yearly appraisal.


Another contradiction:

Quote:
FD your argument is a fallacy because by and large good companies give their employees an appraisal every year and with that comes higher salaries and wages, unions are only needed when

employers will not give their employees a rise under any circumstances.


Let's start by making sense eh?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #70 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:03am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:55am:
Contradiction:

Quote:
Your the one assuming causation.


Quote:
So it’s not the unions that are creating this inequality you assume but rather the corporations themselves by the yearly appraisal.


Another contradiction:

Quote:
FD your argument is a fallacy because by and large good companies give their employees an appraisal every year and with that comes higher salaries and wages, unions are only needed when

employers will not give their employees a rise under any circumstances.


Let's start by making sense eh?


Please explain why those statements are contradictory and why the last one doesn't make any sense to you.

Looks like you want to keep the argument alive at all costs even to the point where you yourself don't know what you're talking about.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #71 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #72 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:49am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage


It's fairly simple logic jest. If you think it helps the unions to counter logical criticism with your whiny hysteria, be my guest.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #73 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am
 
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #74 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:59am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:49am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage


It's fairly simple logic jest. If you think it helps the unions to counter logical criticism with your whiny hysteria, be my guest.


You can say that until your blue in the face, it wont make it right just by you repeating it. Though I grant you that's how propaganda works. If you keep repeating a falsehood there are those who will believe your falsehoods.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #75 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 12:30pm
 
Hey FD Economics 101

If people have no money to spend then the whole economy goes down the toilet.

So keeping people on low wages just enough to put a bowl of rice on the table is not a good idea.

I'm sure you will agree.

And again your argument is nonsensical.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #76 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am:
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.


Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.

Are you saying you agree with me that unions increase wage inequality?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #77 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:21pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:59am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:49am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage


It's fairly simple logic jest. If you think it helps the unions to counter logical criticism with your whiny hysteria, be my guest.


You can say that until your blue in the face, it wont make it right just by you repeating it. Though I grant you that's how propaganda works. If you keep repeating a falsehood there are those who will believe your falsehoods.


It's simple logic jest. This means you can point out the logical errors in anything you disagree with, rather than constantly whining about it.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #78 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54pm
 

77 posts and nobody agrees:

...
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #79 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:21pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:59am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:49am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage


It's fairly simple logic jest. If you think it helps the unions to counter logical criticism with your whiny hysteria, be my guest.


You can say that until your blue in the face, it wont make it right just by you repeating it. Though I grant you that's how propaganda works. If you keep repeating a falsehood there are those who will believe your falsehoods.


It's simple logic jest. This means you can point out the logical errors in anything you disagree with, rather than constantly whining about it.


Ive tried to have an intelligent conversation with you a few times but frankly I've found that your not up to it. Inevitably we just go around in circles with you denying some of the most basic obvious truths to fit in with your preferred conclusion and from what I can gather Im not the only one who has had that experience with you. So why would I do that again?
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #80 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am:
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.


Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.

Are you saying you agree with me that unions increase wage inequality?


Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.  Pursuit of catch-up wages is a reaction, not a cause, and the only differences between various workplaces of the same kind are conditions etc. If you're building a power station 1000 miles from civilisation and your workforce, you cannot expect them to travel every day to get to work.... there are provisions for accommodation and meals etc that must be met, and even remote area allowances that may raise an over all INCOME, but not the actual wage rate.

Once again, Friedman and others like-minded cannot discuss a single issue in isolation, but must take a holistic approach to all reasons and causes.

Friedman's position is a fine argument for a total return to Awards, since obviously negotiating in good faith is beyond most 'managers' these days. - they either take too much or cannot resist the pressure of facts and give too much sometimes - but that is hardly the fault of the union movement.  Return to Awards then.

Friedman's position here is a facile way of trying to shift the blame via half- and quarter-truths and somehow make unions and workers responsible for the ills of society at this time under its dark cloak of global economism and capitalism rampant and unchecked.

You can thank that moron weasel Howard for that - may he rot in hell.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #81 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 3:01pm
 
Quote:
Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.


Is there anything in particular you disagree with? Or do you just not like it? In the spirit of removing the hyperbole, I removed the entire rest of your post.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #82 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 6:38am
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am:
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.


Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.

Are you saying you agree with me that unions increase wage inequality?


Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.  Pursuit of catch-up wages is a reaction, not a cause, and the only differences between various workplaces of the same kind are conditions etc. If you're building a power station 1000 miles from civilisation and your workforce, you cannot expect them to travel every day to get to work.... there are provisions for accommodation and meals etc that must be met, and even remote area allowances that may raise an over all INCOME, but not the actual wage rate.

Once again, Friedman and others like-minded cannot discuss a single issue in isolation, but must take a holistic approach to all reasons and causes.

Friedman's position is a fine argument for a total return to Awards, since obviously negotiating in good faith is beyond most 'managers' these days. - they either take too much or cannot resist the pressure of facts and give too much sometimes - but that is hardly the fault of the union movement.  Return to Awards then.

Friedman's position here is a facile way of trying to shift the blame via half- and quarter-truths and somehow make unions and workers responsible for the ills of society at this time under its dark cloak of global economism and capitalism rampant and unchecked.

You can thank that moron weasel Howard for that - may he rot in hell
.


Exactly.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #83 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 6:40am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 3:01pm:
Quote:
Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.


Is there anything in particular you disagree with? Or do you just not like it? In the spirit of removing the hyperbole, I removed the entire rest of your post.


Did you ask his permission? Or is selective editing also a forte of yours?
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #84 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 9:52am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:04pm:
Ive tried to have an intelligent conversation with you a few times but frankly I've found that your not up to it. Inevitably we just go around in circles with you denying some of the most basic obvious truths to fit in with your preferred conclusion and from what I can gather Im not the only one who has had that experience with you. So why would I do that again?


You've summed up at least 8 years worth of FD's contributions on this forum.

Believe me, I know.

Sadly for me, I don't ask myself that last question nearly enough.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #85 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 10:08am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.


Whether or not you were just being careless with your words, you actually did:

Quote:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


Note highlighted part. Intentionally or not, you clearly ascribe a sole cause for people not being able to get a job in a particular industry (and thus setting off the chain of events that supposedly leads to inequality).

I also call bullshit on your claim that not a single economist disagrees with you.

Just one salient example:

Quote:
In
nonmanufacturing industries, Freeman concluded that the net impact of unions was smaller, reflecting
both a smaller “within-sector” effect and larger “between-sector” effect. Subsequent research has
confirmed that wage differences between different demographic and skill groups are lower, and often
much lower, in the union sector than in the nonunion sector.4
The residual variance of wages within
demographic and skill groups is also generally lower in the union sector.
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/union-wage.pdf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #86 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 11:11am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 9:52am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:04pm:
Ive tried to have an intelligent conversation with you a few times but frankly I've found that your not up to it. Inevitably we just go around in circles with you denying some of the most basic obvious truths to fit in with your preferred conclusion and from what I can gather Im not the only one who has had that experience with you. So why would I do that again?


You've summed up at least 8 years worth of FD's contributions on this forum.

Believe me, I know.

Sadly for me, I don't ask myself that last question nearly enough.


Wink Smiley
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #87 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 10:08am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.


Whether or not you were just being careless with your words, you actually did:

Quote:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


Note highlighted part. Intentionally or not, you clearly ascribe a sole cause for people not being able to get a job in a particular industry (and thus setting off the chain of events that supposedly leads to inequality).


No I don't. You are struggling with the English language, that is all.

Quote:
I also call bullshit on your claim that not a single economist disagrees with you.

Just one salient example:

Quote:
In
nonmanufacturing industries, Freeman concluded that the net impact of unions was smaller, reflecting
both a smaller “within-sector” effect and larger “between-sector” effect. Subsequent research has
confirmed that wage differences between different demographic and skill groups are lower, and often
much lower, in the union sector than in the nonunion sector.4
The residual variance of wages within
demographic and skill groups is also generally lower in the union sector.
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/union-wage.pdf


Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #88 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm
 
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #89 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:25pm
 
BTW where are the big multinationals that have grown fat of the land for decades.

Why doesn't Gina contribute to stimulate the economy.

Neo-liberalism 101 government shouldn't interfere in the day to day running of business and all will sort itself out.

MFA..........................LOL

Where are they FD the big multinationals that have made billions out of the Australian economy.

Where is their contribution to the road out of covid-19.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #90 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #91 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:11am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


You'd know.... you the expert at dribbling poo.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #92 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #93 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:49am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?


An example of an economist who disagrees with you and Friedman, obviously.

Apparently that theory went out of fashion in the 70s.

freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
No I don't. You are struggling with the English language, that is all.


Grin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #94 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss


Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries. In other words whatever BS freediver can tell to serve his purposes for the moment freediver will tell.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #95 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:59am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss


Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries. In other words whatever BS freediver can tell to serve his purposes for the moment freediver will tell. 


Sums it up nicely................... Cool

In my own words "he is full of sh!t"....!
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #96 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 10:24am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am:
Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda.


Good point! He also boasted about how he got himself far better work conditions than any union could have given him.

Actually this same contradictory messaging has been an enduring feature of the broader ideological war against unions: on the one hand workers have to be told that unions are no good for them, union bosses are corrupt and only lining their own pockets etc etc - but on the other hand they have to acknowledge their effectiveness at improving pay and conditions - in order to run their favourite lines like "unions are driving small business to the ground!" and "Union pay demands = runaway inflation!!"
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #97 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:14pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:49am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?


An example of an economist who disagrees with you and Friedman, obviously.


Not really that obvious Gandalf. You quoted someone agreeing with Friedman.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #98 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:19pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss


Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries. In other words whatever BS freediver can tell to serve his purposes for the moment freediver will tell. 


Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #99 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 1:21am
 
"Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries."

A bit like the inherent contradictions of the social worker classes... one unnamed here works to get certain kids to go to school, works against the volume of violence in their communities, accepts without question that up to 90% of that violence is unreported and/or never actioned - yet says that demographic has too high an incarceration rate...

I do not name the actual poster here, for the simple reason that these deficiencies are part and parcel of that 'social worker class', and are absorbed in their 'training'.

Holds as much reality as the shamanic concept that powdered rhino horn, by virtue of the horn being hard and upright, will give a man a hard and upright penis (horn) ..... forest and the trees, innit - like Forrest Gump disappearing across that paddock when being chased... can't see the Forrest for the trees....

Not that I'm slagging anyone here - to do that you need to address them directly..... Tongue right, Smithy?  You're our resident expert......   Tongue
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #100 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 11:46am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:14pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:49am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?


An example of an economist who disagrees with you and Friedman, obviously.


Not really that obvious Gandalf. You quoted someone agreeing with Friedman.


Did you actually confuse "Friedman" with "Freeman"? Because thats the only way that claim of yours makes any sense. Although it would require you to conclude that Friedman was arguing the exact opposite to what you claimed in the OP.

But no need to get confused by Freeman - the article is chock full of economists who argue the opposite of Friedman - eg:

Quote:
DiNardo and Lemieux (1997) implemented a
reweighting technique to construct estimates of the sum of the terms in equation (4) for men in the U.S.
and Canada in 1981 and 1988. They estimated that in 1981 the presence of unions reduced the variance of male wages by 6 percent in the U.S. and 10 percent in Canada.


...

Quote:
The study by Bell and Pitt (1998) used DFL’s method to analyse the impact of declining
unionization on the growth in wage inequality in Britain. Depending on the data source used, they found
that between 10 and 25 percent of the increase in male wage inequality can be explained by the fall in unionization.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #101 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:49pm
 
Not sure how they got to their conclusions, but this:

Quote:
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


is basically the same as what Friedman claims.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #102 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:49pm:
Not sure how they got to their conclusions, but this:

Quote:
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


is basically the same as what Friedman claims.


How so? All that study is saying is that unionized workers within a given sector have less wage inequality than their non-union counterparts. Which is really a no-brainer. It says nothing about Friedman's thesis that the unionization of one part of the sector directly causing wage inequality in the non-unionized part. Basically the study is cited only as an example of the reducing effect unions have on wage inequality - in this case within sector. It of course doesn't, in itself, disprove Friedman's thesis, but nor does it support it. But one of the arguments of the article is that this 'within-sector' effect is so great that it largely overrides all other influences of wage inequality, thus creating an overall net wage inequality reduction across the board.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #103 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:18pm
 
Quote:
All that study is saying is that unionized workers within a given sector


Obviously if you exclude the way that unions increase wage inequality, you will end up coming to a conclusion that is the opposite of reality. If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.

Quote:
Which is really a no-brainer.


I can always rely on you for them Gandalf.

Quote:
It says nothing about Friedman's thesis


It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #104 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 3:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:18pm:
If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.


Grin Grin of course - all two and a half lines of it.

The OP is at best the opening of an argument - an argument that as yet has no flesh and no shred of supporting evidence. Seven pages in, and I don't believe you've presented any shred of evidence. Though that of course is par for the course for you. The quote in the OP was directly addressed in the article I quoted, and directly refuted by actual evidence. Evidence, mind you, from economists that you previously assured us did not exist.

freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story


Grin Grin ignoring half the story eh? stop it FD, you're killing me.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #105 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm
 
No-one has asked me for evidence yet. It is common knowledge to the economically literate.

Is there anything in the OP you disagree with?

Quote:
The quote in the OP was directly addressed in the article I quoted, and directly refuted by actual evidence.


As I explained, it does not. Your quotes attempt to create an entirely different argument by excluding half the facts. It does not directly address the argument in the OP in any way. Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author. But you'd have to understand what both arguments actually say to appreciate this.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #106 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 8:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm:
No-one has asked me for evidence yet.



probably because for years you've run away when asked for evidence for anything...
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #107 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 8:30pm
 
Ah. So I have trained you to be whiny little bitches.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #108 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:13am
 
Do Unions of Employers also increase inequality?  Roll Eyes
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #109 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 11:30am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm:
Is there anything in the OP you disagree with?


Yes, all of it. It is a crude union-bashing propaganda meme that to my knowledge has no basis whatsoever in fact - but is demonstrably refuted by the facts.

Quote:
As I explained,


What exactly have you "explained" FD? Apart from copying Friedman's baseless brain fart and insisting (without any elaboration) how the article is somehow only "half the story"?

Thats not explaining FD, thats parotting useless memes that mean nothing at all.

Oh thats right, you also "explained" how all the economists I cited demonstrating with actual evidence how wrong Friedman is, actually don't exist.

freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm:
Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author.


"Whoever wrote it" says nothing of the kind. You're probably confusing them with one of the cited authors - Freeman, who distinguishes between the 'within sector' and 'between sector' effects. He alludes to, though doesn't specifically explain, a "disequalising" effect between union and non-union workers between sector - which presumably is the same as Friedman's disequalising theory. However he stresses that since the 'within sector' equalising effect is so strong, it overrides any possible 'between sector' disequalising effect - thus making the overall effect of unions on wages equalising. Or in other words, the exact opposite of what Friedman claims.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #110 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 12:48pm
 
Lets see how long it takes him to come back with more of his generalising Union bashing bullshyte.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #111 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:13am:
Do Unions of Employers also increase inequality?  Roll Eyes


No. That would be the one surefire way to achieve your utopia of everyone on the same low wage. Either that, or CEO's in jail.

Quote:
Yes, all of it. It is a crude union-bashing propaganda meme that to my knowledge has no basis whatsoever in fact - but is demonstrably refuted by the facts.


OK, let's start at the beginning. What makes you think I was wrong about Friedman making the claim?

What "facts" refute it? The only ones you have presented merely avoid the topic.

Quote:
What exactly have you "explained" FD?


Not sure why you are still struggling with this. It is microeconomics 101. Here are some of the previous occasions I have explained:

Your quotes attempt to create an entirely different argument by excluding half the facts. It does not directly address the argument in the OP in any way. Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author. But you'd have to understand what both arguments actually say to appreciate this.

Obviously if you exclude the way that unions increase wage inequality, you will end up coming to a conclusion that is the opposite of reality. If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.


Do you really need to copy and paste what we just went over, or can you just read it for yourself? If you are still struggling, go back to the OP.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #112 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 7:39am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:13am:
Do Unions of Employers also increase inequality?  Roll Eyes


No. That would be the one surefire way to achieve your utopia of everyone on the same low wage. Either that, or CEO's in jail.

Quote:
Yes, all of it. It is a crude union-bashing propaganda meme that to my knowledge has no basis whatsoever in fact - but is demonstrably refuted by the facts.


OK, let's start at the beginning. What makes you think I was wrong about Friedman making the claim?

What "facts" refute it? The only ones you have presented merely avoid the topic.

Quote:
What exactly have you "explained" FD?


Not sure why you are still struggling with this. It is microeconomics 101. Here are some of the previous occasions I have explained:

Your quotes attempt to create an entirely different argument by excluding half the facts. It does not directly address the argument in the OP in any way. Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author. But you'd have to understand what both arguments actually say to appreciate this.

Obviously if you exclude the way that unions increase wage inequality, you will end up coming to a conclusion that is the opposite of reality. If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.


Do you really need to copy and paste what we just went over, or can you just read it for yourself? If you are still struggling, go back to the OP.


Grin Your utopia more likely ..... that's why CEOs didn't go to jail in the aftermath of the GFC.

They just used taxpayer/unionists bailout money to pay themselves bonuses ....

and in no time flat it was back to business as usual ....

and the global rorting continues by that club & those who support it.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #113 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:41am
 
Which CEOs do you think should have gone to jail because of the GFC?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #114 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:04am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
What "facts" refute it? The only ones you have presented merely avoid the topic.


The only way you could possibly think that the article I cited "avoids the topic" is if you didn't read it.

What you and Friedman are concluding is exceedinly simple: that unions increase wage inequality. Thats it. We don't need to worry about the dodgy logic that underpins it, we really only need to worry about if the conclusion is right or wrong. What the article I quoted is concluding amounts to something equally as simple: that unions do not increase wage inequality. Literally the only thing the article does is address that key claim by Friedman and systematically demonstrate that they think the exact opposite happens.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
Not sure why you are still struggling with this. It is microeconomics 101.


Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
Here are some of the previous occasions I have explained:


Congratulations FD. You've figured out 3 different ways to say "I'm right and you're wrong - just because" - and then repeated one of them for good measure.

Here's a challenge: can you produce a single real-world example of unions increasing wage inequality? You know, actual evidence, not just mindless hand waving about 'economics 101' and such nonsense.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #115 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:31am
 
Quote:
What you and Friedman are concluding is exceedinly simple: that unions increase wage inequality. Thats it. We don't need to worry about the dodgy logic that underpins it, we really only need to worry about if the conclusion is right or wrong. What the article I quoted is concluding amounts to something equally as simple: that unions do not increase wage inequality. Literally the only thing the article does is address that key claim by Friedman and systematically demonstrate that they think the exact opposite happens.


No it doesn't. I have already explained several times how they exclude half of the consequences to draw that conclusion. They even tell you in the quotes you produced that this is what they are doing, but you are oblivious. Now you are ignoring that and repeating yourself.

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.


This explains a lot. Do you reject mainstream economics in its entirety? And do you reject economic theory out off ignorance, or do you understand what you are rejecting?

If so, what do you replace it with? And why do you use as evidence an article based on the same theory?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #116 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:01am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:31am:
No it doesn't. I have already explained several times how they exclude half of the consequences to draw that conclusion. They even tell you in the quotes you produced that this is what they are doing, but you are oblivious.


What do you even mean by "half the consequences" FD? The only consequence we are interested in is whether unions increase or decrease wage inequality. Like I said, the dodgy logic that underpins the (baseless) claim that it increases inequality is irrelevant. Whatever claim you are trying to make about the article makes no sense at all - it sounds something like "they reach a conclusion that in any case they acknowledge is wrong" or some such nonsense. As for "what they are doing" in that particular quote, its simply to compare the 'within sector' effect on wage inequality  with the 'between sector' effect - and concludes that whatever disequalising effect occurs between sector (that is never elaborated on), is overriden by the stronger equalising effect that occurse within sector. Thus the overall effect - which of course is the only effect that matters here - is equalising.

Whether or not your "economics 101" dismisses or forgets the within sector effect and consider only the between sector effect - I don't know, and frankly it doesn't matter. Since the only relevant consequence here is that *OVERALL*, unions demonstrably create a equalising effect regarding wages. And unless you're going to come out and say that Friedman was really only talking about one aspect union influence, and that he agrees that that aspect is overriden by other union influence - thus creating an overall equalising effect - then yes, it absolutely does demonstrate that Friedman and you are wrong.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #117 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:10am
 
Quote:
Do you reject mainstream economics in its entirety?


A quick google search makes it pretty clear that it is you rejecting mainstream economics. Couldn't find anyone who agrees with you and Friedman since the 1960s.

Oh look here, here's four more economists that FD assured us do not exist:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/business/labor-unions-income-inequality.html

Quote:
The new insights come from a working paper, “Unions and Inequality Over the Twentieth Century: New Evidence from Survey Data,” by four economists: Henry Farber, Daniel Herbst and Ilyana Kuziemko of Princeton, and Suresh Naidu of Columbia. They establish that unions have constrained income inequality far beyond their own membership ranks.


No doubt FD will be along to "explain"* to us how these authors are really saying "this is the conclusion we reach, but we know its totally wrong"


* in FD speak, 'explain' means saying "because I said so".
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #118 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:12am
 
Quote:
A quick google search makes it pretty clear that it is you rejecting mainstream economics.


Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #119 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:17am
 
You literally have nothing useful to say do you FD?

I wonder why you bother.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #120 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:22am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:17am:
You literally have nothing useful to say do you FD?

I wonder why you bother.


Discussing economics with someone who thinks they reject microeconomics, but isn't really sure and doesn't even know what it is?

Have you made up your mind yet?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #121 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:09pm
 
If only you would discuss economics FD - instead of just parroting ideological dogma that is refuted by actual evidence, and justifying it by some pathetic and meaningless appeal to something called "mainstream economics" and "economics 101".

Believe it or not, apart from the vague quote in the OP, you've yet to explain a single thing about your theory or any good reason for why it should be believed.

Have you come up with any actual evidence to support Friedman's view yet?

Have you noticed all the economists who disagree with Friedman that you assured us didn't exist yet?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #122 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm
 
Quote:
A quick google search makes it pretty clear that it is you rejecting mainstream economics.


Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #123 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:13pm
 
Thought not.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #124 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm:
Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.



Yes FD, it was said tongue in cheek to make the point that when you claim your meaningless waffle is really "microeconomics 101" - you are clearly speaking out of your arse. Apparently this needs spelling out. Is this proof that you will do absolutely anything - even to the point of pretending you are a blathering idiot - to deflect away from the topic?

Do you agree that based on what actual mainstream economists are saying about unions and their effect on wage inequality - it is you who is rejecting mainstream economics?

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #125 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:20pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm:
Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.



Yes FD, it was said tongue in cheek to make the point that when you claim your meaningless waffle is really "microeconomics 101" - you are clearly speaking out of your arse. Apparently this needs spelling out. Is this proof that you will do absolutely anything - even to the point of pretending you are a blathering idiot - to deflect away from the topic?

Do you agree that based on what actual mainstream economists are saying about unions and their effect on wage inequality - it is you who is rejecting mainstream economics?



No.

The only example you have produced does not contradict what I and Friedman are saying. Which is why, despite all your blathering, you cannot explain what is wrong with the claim.

And you are right that I do not feel the need to provide evidence for something that can be derived from the most basic and universally accepted economic theory.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #126 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:25pm
 
Quote:
What do you even mean by "half the consequences" FD?


The example you provided only considers the intended consequences of union action. It excludes all the unintended consequences. That is why I quoted it when pointing this out. It makes it quite clear that it is limiting what it considers.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #127 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:20pm:
The only example you have produced does not contradict what I and Friedman are saying.


What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages does not contradict what you and Friedman are saying?

Are you saying you meant the exact opposite of what you actually said in the OP? Or have you just forgotton what you said? Here I'll help you out - this is the last sentence:

Quote:
Thus, they increase wage inequality


Not much wriggle room there FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:25pm:
The example you provided only considers the intended consequences of union action. It excludes all the unintended consequences


This makes zero sense. It considers what actually happened - nothing more nothing less. Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #128 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 5:23pm
 
Quote:
What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages


That's not what your evidence said.

Quote:
Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?


Where it states, quite explicitly, the restricted set of wages it considers. I believe I quoted the sentence the first time I pointed this out to you.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #129 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 6:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:41am:
Which CEOs do you think should have gone to jail because of the GFC?


NY Federal Reserve( Timothy Geithner),Bear Sterns(James Cayne), Lehmann Brothers(Richard Fuld), Goldman Sachs( Lloyd Blankfein) , Morgan Stanley(John Mack), JPMorgan(Jamie Dimon), Bank of America(Ken Lewis), & to keep it diverse - Standard & Poors (Kathleen Corbet).

Along with govt appointed officials tied up with wall street & banking -

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson -

Quote:
During the last year of the Bush administration, Henry "Hank" Paulson had a huge impact on economic policy. He was CEO at Goldman Sachs prior to his stint at the Treasury Department, which started in 2006. One of his famous decisions as secretary was to let Lehman Brothers fail, precipitating a stock market drop of nearly five percent. In his zeal not to repeat that mistake, he helped push the bank bailout through Congress.


Federal Reserve Chair Ben Bernanke - a scumbag who worked for George Bush & was re-appointed by Obama. A major proponent for the deregulation of the banking industry.

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/major-players-2008-financial-crisis-and-wh...

Your whole attitude is generally in the same nature as these scumbags. Roll Eyes
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #130 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 6:42pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:01am:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:31am:
No it doesn't. I have already explained several times how they exclude half of the consequences to draw that conclusion. They even tell you in the quotes you produced that this is what they are doing, but you are oblivious.


What do you even mean by "half the consequences" FD? The only consequence we are interested in is whether unions increase or decrease wage inequality. Like I said, the dodgy logic that underpins the (baseless) claim that it increases inequality is irrelevant. Whatever claim you are trying to make about the article makes no sense at all - it sounds something like "they reach a conclusion that in any case they acknowledge is wrong" or some such nonsense. As for "what they are doing" in that particular quote, its simply to compare the 'within sector' effect on wage inequality  with the 'between sector' effect - and concludes that whatever disequalising effect occurs between sector (that is never elaborated on), is overriden by the stronger equalising effect that occurse within sector. Thus the overall effect - which of course is the only effect that matters here - is equalising.

Whether or not your "economics 101" dismisses or forgets the within sector effect and consider only the between sector effect - I don't know, and frankly it doesn't matter. Since the only relevant consequence here is that *OVERALL*, unions demonstrably create a equalising effect regarding wages. And unless you're going to come out and say that Friedman was really only talking about one aspect union influence, and that he agrees that that aspect is overriden by other union influence - thus creating an overall equalising effect - then yes, it absolutely does demonstrate that Friedman and you are wrong.


Like he only needs 50% of farmers to obey Industrial law .....

it's fine for the other 50% to criminally disobey it.

He is a completely dishonest human being.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #131 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 7:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 8:30pm:
Ah. So I have trained you to be whiny little bitches.


IS that what you're doing ?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #132 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:13pm
 
Quote:
NY Federal Reserve( Timothy Geithner),Bear Sterns(James Cayne), Lehmann Brothers(Richard Fuld), Goldman Sachs( Lloyd Blankfein) , Morgan Stanley(John Mack), JPMorgan(Jamie Dimon), Bank of America(Ken Lewis), & to keep it diverse - Standard & Poors (Kathleen Corbet).

That's a lot of people you want to kill Gnads. Is that all of them?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #133 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 6:43am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:13pm:
Quote:
NY Federal Reserve( Timothy Geithner),Bear Sterns(James Cayne), Lehmann Brothers(Richard Fuld), Goldman Sachs( Lloyd Blankfein) , Morgan Stanley(John Mack), JPMorgan(Jamie Dimon), Bank of America(Ken Lewis), & to keep it diverse - Standard & Poors (Kathleen Corbet).

That's a lot of people you want to kill Gnads. Is that all of them?


See there's your dishonesty out in spades ....

I never said "kill" anybody.

The word was "jail".

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #134 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 7:22pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 15th, 2020 at 8:18am:
It would be a reasonable belief for any fair minded person that they be bought to account.

White collar crime is still a crime.


What crime?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #135 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 10:30am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
Quote:
What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages


Quote:
That's not what your evidence said.


Its literally exactly what the evidence said. It does actually help if you read what we're discussing FD. Then you might avoid tying yourself in knots saying one minute the conclusions they reach is wrong because they leave out "half the story", and then the next minute saying actually the conclusions they reach agree with Friedman.

I've explained to you so many times now what the article concludes, and how, with explicit reference to the actual article. You on the other hand respond with vague hand waving about crap you can't even demonstrate is even in the article.

Quote:
Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?


Where it states, quite explicitly, the restricted set of wages it considers. I believe I quoted the sentence the first time I pointed this out to you.


I'm presuming, because its the only part of the article you quoted back to me, you are referring to this:

Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


No idea what you think are the "restricted set of wages" being "explicitly" referred to here. Feel free to clarify.

In fact, feel free to clarify your entire argument - if you have one. So far the most specific you've been is parrotting a vague Friedman quote and asserting "its economics 101".
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #136 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 12:29pm
 
Well - even the Little Rat Weasel's Work"Choices" stipulated that no payment for the same work could fall below the award rates... of course, the game plan was that so much confusion would prevail that very thing would actually occur in many cases, with the managers trying every way - including blatant thuggery and standover - to force lower wages for the same work on employees.

Look at the story Gnads put out yesterday... par for the course.

What are my choices?

Take it or leave it!

Time to return to a full Awards system, methinks, and let them eat it for a while.  Trickledown has as much effect as a sprinkler turned off on your garden.

BTW - rain - glorious rain... bewdiful - and I just planted the peas and carrots yesterday.  Now for that bore and piping for automatic watering.  Once an acreage man always an acreage man... you can take the old bastard out of the paddocks - but you can't take the paddocks out of the old bastard... the yard hand (aged car provided) said he was quoted $2000 for a bore - I said I can buy a 5m post hole digger for $105 and do it myself a bit at a time, put in a piece of poly pipe either 100 or 150mm, drop in a $35 submersible pump that can do 1500 litres or 4500 litres an hour, put in a timer, and off you go.  water table here is only about two feet down in sandy soil .....
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #137 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 10:30am:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
Quote:
What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages


Quote:
That's not what your evidence said.


Its literally exactly what the evidence said. It does actually help if you read what we're discussing FD. Then you might avoid tying yourself in knots saying one minute the conclusions they reach is wrong because they leave out "half the story", and then the next minute saying actually the conclusions they reach agree with Friedman.

I've explained to you so many times now what the article concludes, and how, with explicit reference to the actual article. You on the other hand respond with vague hand waving about crap you can't even demonstrate is even in the article.

Quote:
Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?


Where it states, quite explicitly, the restricted set of wages it considers. I believe I quoted the sentence the first time I pointed this out to you.


I'm presuming, because its the only part of the article you quoted back to me, you are referring to this:

Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


No idea what you think are the "restricted set of wages" being "explicitly" referred to here. Feel free to clarify.

In fact, feel free to clarify your entire argument - if you have one. So far the most specific you've been is parrotting a vague Friedman quote and asserting "its economics 101".


No problem.

freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #138 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:57am
 
Thanks FD. Shame there is not a shred of evidence to support it, and shame that the only actual evidence we have seen to date directly contradicts it. And shame you prove yourself completely incapable of demonstrating otherwise.

But not to worry, I'm sure you'll be armed ready with all your usual brainless memes and quips to keep up your delusion that you are somehow refuting what i say.

What you won't be armed with is an actual coherent argument with some actual flesh and supported by actual evidence. I think 10 pages of waffle makes that a pretty safe bet.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #139 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #140 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:50am
 
Then make Unionism compulsory and everyone will be on the same footing!  Hey Presto - solved!

Maybe in America where everything is enterprise based you could argue that unions may have an impact in specific enterprises in getting more or less - but in Australia.  No way.
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:00am by Ye Grappler »  

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #141 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:09am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan



FD: market forces, not unions, will drive higher wages:

freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2020 at 9:25pm:
The strongest would be market forces - the same forces that have given most Australian workers higher salaries than what the unions bargain for.


FD: don't rely on unions to organise a raise:

freediver wrote on Sep 10th, 2020 at 6:22pm:
Unionists delude themselves into thinking they can leave it to the unions to organise a raise rather than persuing their own best interest.


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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #142 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:36am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:09am:
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan



FD: market forces, not unions, will drive higher wages:

freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2020 at 9:25pm:
The strongest would be market forces - the same forces that have given most Australian workers higher salaries than what the unions bargain for.


FD: don't rely on unions to organise a raise:

freediver wrote on Sep 10th, 2020 at 6:22pm:
Unionists delude themselves into thinking they can leave it to the unions to organise a raise rather than persuing their own best interest.




You just know you're dealing with a rabid liar when he/she says that workers can individually negotiate a better deal with their employers rather than negotiating collectively as part of a union. 

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #143 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 11:44am
 
- or a rabid ideologue
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #144 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 12:17pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 11:44am:
- or a rabid ideologue
OK I will give him the benefit of the doubt and scale it down to FD is a rabid ideologue. But I haven't entirely closed the book on liar you understand. Its a watching brief.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #145 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 12:23pm
 
Delusion can be a very effective shield against lying.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #146 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm
 
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.
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Bubbles
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #147 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:20pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


Nobody is saying that a worker is too stupid to protect his own interests. We're saying that workers are stronger and better resourced to protect their interests if they protect themselves collectively. Most employers have human resources sections to advise & negotiate for them or they contact the small business unions to advise them. Its foolish to think you can fight that on your own
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #148 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:46pm
 
On the few occassions I have - I've succeeded in some way.
Mostly though, I have never needed to.
I've seen other guys succeed in this way too.
But hey, you gotta be good if you want to stand above the 'pack' (unionists).  Wink
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #149 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:57am:
Thanks FD. Shame there is not a shred of evidence to support it, and shame that the only actual evidence we have seen to date directly contradicts it. And shame you prove yourself completely incapable of demonstrating otherwise.

But not to worry, I'm sure you'll be armed ready with all your usual brainless memes and quips to keep up your delusion that you are somehow refuting what i say.

What you won't be armed with is an actual coherent argument with some actual flesh and supported by actual evidence. I think 10 pages of waffle makes that a pretty safe bet.


The evidence in support of the claim is overwhelming, which is why you will not find a single economist who disagrees with it.

Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan


Can you quote me?

Quote:
You just know you're dealing with a rabid liar when he/she says that workers can individually negotiate a better deal with their employers rather than negotiating collectively as part of a union.


You are a liar.

Quote:
Nobody is saying that a worker is too stupid to protect his own interests.


I believe the unionists here have made this argument several times recently.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #150 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:04pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:20pm:
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


Nobody is saying that a worker is too stupid to protect his own interests. We're saying that workers are stronger and better resourced to protect their interests if they protect themselves collectively. Most employers have human resources sections to advise & negotiate for them or they contact the small business unions to advise them. Its foolish to think you can fight that on your own


Most employers have human resources sections to advise & negotiate for them


Gee it would be nice if that were all.

The last direct negotiation I was in I had to face alone:

Department manager, HR executive, Finance head, Assistant to the CEO, External finance advisor and a random manager.

The average employee has no chance.

The first question was how much pay cut will you accept. I won't go into the details but I was not an easy target.

Within 6 months my advantage was gone as they employed additional people and I was redundant.

The following 3 months I got a number of phone calls to ask how something worked or how to fix a problem, unfortunately I didn't remember very much.

Individual negotiation is stacked against the employee, It works well for the few at the top where management wants to throw money away.

The average employee has no chance, it is mostly this is what you get don't like it there is the door.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #151 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:35pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're an ignorant scab.

If you have ever taken wages under an award, holidays, accumulated long service leave or annual leave, are allocated sick leave which in some places is accumulative, etc etc ...
'
then you have done so at the contributions to industrial relations by Trade Unions.

You ... as a wages worker you should be grateful ...

but instead you are an ignorant Union basher like Freediver.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #152 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:47pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:46pm:
On the few occassions I have - I've succeeded in some way.
Mostly though, I have never needed to.
I've seen other guys succeed in this way too.
But hey, you gotta be good if you want to stand above the 'pack' (unionists).  Wink
"Succeeded in some way"? Yes we can all find some success in failure if we look hard enough. Frankly I think you're deluding yourself. And trying to delude the rest of us while your at it. I dont suppose you want to share what it is you do. Is it shearing?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #153 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:51pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:04pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:20pm:
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


Nobody is saying that a worker is too stupid to protect his own interests. We're saying that workers are stronger and better resourced to protect their interests if they protect themselves collectively. Most employers have human resources sections to advise & negotiate for them or they contact the small business unions to advise them. Its foolish to think you can fight that on your own


Most employers have human resources sections to advise & negotiate for them


Gee it would be nice if that were all.

The last direct negotiation I was in I had to face alone:

Department manager, HR executive, Finance head, Assistant to the CEO, External finance advisor and a random manager.

The average employee has no chance.

The first question was how much pay cut will you accept. I won't go into the details but I was not an easy target.

Within 6 months my advantage was gone as they employed additional people and I was redundant.

The following 3 months I got a number of phone calls to ask how something worked or how to fix a problem, unfortunately I didn't remember very much.

Individual negotiation is stacked against the employee, It works well for the few at the top where management wants to throw money away.

The average employee has no chance, it is mostly this is what you get don't like it there is the door.

Totally agree.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #154 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 6:34am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan


Can you quote me?


Your countless posts in the thread you started titled,  "Unions want to kill non-Union industries" in which you repeatedly accuse people of swallowing union propaganda for saying that unions improve pay and conditions Or you just simply respond with "crap" or "BS".

So how do you reconcile that position with the cornerstone of your argument here that people who work in unionised industries get better pay and conditions?

Im betting you I dont get a straight answer.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #155 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 7:59am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 6:34am:
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan


Can you quote me?


Your countless posts in the thread you started titled,  "Unions want to kill non-Union industries" in which you repeatedly accuse people of swallowing union propaganda for saying that unions improve pay and conditions Or you just simply respond with "crap" or "BS".

So how do you reconcile that position with the cornerstone of your argument here that people who work in unionised industries get better pay and conditions?

Im betting you I dont get a straight answer.


It might help if you bothered to read what I actually said.

So quote me, if you are not full of BS.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #156 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:21am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 7:59am:
Jest wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 6:34am:
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan


Can you quote me?


Your countless posts in the thread you started titled,  "Unions want to kill non-Union industries" in which you repeatedly accuse people of swallowing union propaganda for saying that unions improve pay and conditions Or you just simply respond with "crap" or "BS".

So how do you reconcile that position with the cornerstone of your argument here that people who work in unionised industries get better pay and conditions?

Im betting you I dont get a straight answer.


It might help if you bothered to read what I actually said.

So quote me, if you are not full of BS.


The thread is full of what you said for all to see. But if you say you didn't mean that unions don't result in increased wages and better conditions then say what you were trying to say.

It really is quite simple. You can say up front now how you reconcile what you said there compared to what your saying now or you can continue B*llshitting as you always do. 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #157 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am
 
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #158 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:32am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:57am:
Thanks FD. Shame there is not a shred of evidence to support it, and shame that the only actual evidence we have seen to date directly contradicts it. And shame you prove yourself completely incapable of demonstrating otherwise.

But not to worry, I'm sure you'll be armed ready with all your usual brainless memes and quips to keep up your delusion that you are somehow refuting what i say.

What you won't be armed with is an actual coherent argument with some actual flesh and supported by actual evidence. I think 10 pages of waffle makes that a pretty safe bet.


The evidence in support of the claim is overwhelming, which is why you will not find a single economist who disagrees with it.


I'm actually not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse on this, or if you trully are that delusional.

Either way it must take some trully world class mental gymnastics to conclude that all the economists I cited arguing that unions have an overall equalising effect on wages - are somehow not disagreeing with what Friedman said in the OP.

What those gymnastics consist of exactly I'd love to know - but you are incapable of explaining even your own thoughgts or rationale - beyond parotting what Friedman said in the OP.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #159 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:50am
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am:
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?


'Twisting' would actually be an intellectual advancement on his current routine. To twist something would presumably require FD to know what it was he was twisting in the first place. He has demonstrated pretty clearly that he doesn't have much of a clue what even that is.

I'm not sure if anyone could be more obtuse than FD is being in this discussion if they tried.

This entire thread has consisted of FD:

1. opening with presenting an unsubstantiated and unfleshed thought bubble of Friedman

2. responding to any criticism of the quote with such intellectually profound arguments as "not a single economist will disagree with it" and "its microeconomics 101" and a few different variations of "its right, so there!"

3. running his trademark deflection/interference routine whenever asked for actual evidence for the claim

4. incomprehensibly and without any coherent explanation, repeat the idiotic lie that all the evidence presented that demonstrates the opposite of what Friedman claims, is somehow agreeing with Friedman.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #160 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:53am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:50am:
Gnads wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am:
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?


'Twisting' would actually be an intellectual advancement on his current routine. To twist something would presumably require FD to know what it was he was twisting in the first place. He has demonstrated pretty clearly that he doesn't have much of a clue what even that is.

I'm not sure if anyone could be more obtuse than FD is being in this discussion if they tried.

This entire thread has consisted of FD:

1. opening with presenting an unsubstantiated and unfleshed thought bubble of Friedman

2. responding to any criticism of the quote with such intellectually profound arguments as "not a single economist will disagree with it" and "its microeconomics 101" and a few different variations of "its right, so there!"

3. running his trademark deflection/interference routine whenever asked for actual evidence for the claim

4. incomprehensibly and without any coherent explanation, repeat the idiotic lie that all the evidence presented that demonstrates the opposite of what Friedman claims, is somehow agreeing with Friedman.


Yes... a fair summation.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #161 - Oct 21st, 2020 at 3:40pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:32am:
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:57am:
Thanks FD. Shame there is not a shred of evidence to support it, and shame that the only actual evidence we have seen to date directly contradicts it. And shame you prove yourself completely incapable of demonstrating otherwise.

But not to worry, I'm sure you'll be armed ready with all your usual brainless memes and quips to keep up your delusion that you are somehow refuting what i say.

What you won't be armed with is an actual coherent argument with some actual flesh and supported by actual evidence. I think 10 pages of waffle makes that a pretty safe bet.


The evidence in support of the claim is overwhelming, which is why you will not find a single economist who disagrees with it.


I'm actually not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse on this, or if you trully are that delusional.

Either way it must take some trully world class mental gymnastics to conclude that all the economists I cited arguing that unions have an overall equalising effect on wages - are somehow not disagreeing with what Friedman said in the OP.


They are not disagreeing with Friedman. I have explained why. It got too complicated for you, so you started going round in circles. Your inability to comprehend the most basic concepts in economics is not evidence I am wrong.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #162 - Nov 8th, 2020 at 8:28am
 
Quote:
He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....


What makes you think that Gnads?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #163 - Nov 8th, 2020 at 9:27am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:50am:
Gnads wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am:
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?


'Twisting' would actually be an intellectual advancement on his current routine. To twist something would presumably require FD to know what it was he was twisting in the first place. He has demonstrated pretty clearly that he doesn't have much of a clue what even that is.

I'm not sure if anyone could be more obtuse than FD is being in this discussion if they tried.

This entire thread has consisted of FD:

1. opening with presenting an unsubstantiated and unfleshed thought bubble of Friedman

2. responding to any criticism of the quote with such intellectually profound arguments as "not a single economist will disagree with it" and "its microeconomics 101" and a few different variations of "its right, so there!"

3. running his trademark deflection/interference routine whenever asked for actual evidence for the claim

4. incomprehensibly and without any coherent explanation, repeat the idiotic lie that all the evidence presented that demonstrates the opposite of what Friedman claims, is somehow agreeing with Friedman.



That's basically what he does on EVERY topic, no matter what's being discussed.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #164 - Nov 8th, 2020 at 9:55am
 
John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2020 at 9:27am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:50am:
Gnads wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am:
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?


'Twisting' would actually be an intellectual advancement on his current routine. To twist something would presumably require FD to know what it was he was twisting in the first place. He has demonstrated pretty clearly that he doesn't have much of a clue what even that is.

I'm not sure if anyone could be more obtuse than FD is being in this discussion if they tried.

This entire thread has consisted of FD:

1. opening with presenting an unsubstantiated and unfleshed thought bubble of Friedman

2. responding to any criticism of the quote with such intellectually profound arguments as "not a single economist will disagree with it" and "its microeconomics 101" and a few different variations of "its right, so there!"

3. running his trademark deflection/interference routine whenever asked for actual evidence for the claim

4. incomprehensibly and without any coherent explanation, repeat the idiotic lie that all the evidence presented that demonstrates the opposite of what Friedman claims, is somehow agreeing with Friedman.



That's basically what he does on EVERY topic, no matter what's being discussed.


That's why I gave up discussing anything with him. Its hopeless.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #165 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:44am
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're full of shyte ... it's a fact that workers in Union negotiated EBA workplaces have higher wages and better conditions.

You must be blind not to have seen all the cases of wage theft going on in non Union workplaces?

You show your ignorance using the music industry as an example. What a cut throat and fickle industry it is.

And going by places you said you've worked I'd say you're just a scab in the workplace.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #166 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:59am
 
I'd venture to say that crap companies create the environment in which their employees work like crap..... not the other way around... a pure  volunteer employee group willing to contribute to something they feel they are part of is much better than conscript labour.

Boeing - way back in the 1970's-80's found that having a 'team' approach producing 'their' aircraft from start to finish, as opposed to an assembly line process - resulted in over 90% FEWER warranty returns and repairs... the same 'team' went out to do warranty repairs and replacements, thus learning from any mistakes....

I once explained that to a 'management' and their eyes went glazed with incomprehension..... no idea at all.... they wanted master/servant and total control like some Untersharfuhrer on the Konzentrationslager block... and with about the same level of knowledge and talent....  I also explained to them how to get around their 'block' created by using RPG to generate their paperwork - it is very basic and starts at 0.00 and thus did not really fit a 24 hour operation with varied starting times etc... again with the glazed look.....

Lot of that doing the rounds these days.... Man Agement is the true term... they sure make the men feel old...  Shocked ... oh - and not one of them ever stood a watch in the workplace to get a feel for what it was all about.....   Roll Eyes

Colonel Hal Moore : To follow your instincts and to inspire your men, by your example, you have to be with 'em. Where the metal meets the meat.


... and I don't mean pepperoni on a pizza tray....
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #167 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 10:45am
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're full of shyte ... it's a fact that workers in Union negotiated EBA workplaces have higher wages and better conditions.

You must be blind not to have seen all the cases of wage theft going on in non Union workplaces?

You show your ignorance using the music industry as an example. What a cut throat and fickle industry it is.

And going by places you said you've worked I'd say you're just a scab in the workplace.



An incredibly naïve post from JaSin.

I hope he was trolling.

By the way - where is JaSin?

Haven't seen him since the big orange fella in the US had his fat ass handed to him.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #168 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 11:19am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 9th, 2020 at 10:45am:
Gnads wrote on Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're full of shyte ... it's a fact that workers in Union negotiated EBA workplaces have higher wages and better conditions.

You must be blind not to have seen all the cases of wage theft going on in non Union workplaces?

You show your ignorance using the music industry as an example. What a cut throat and fickle industry it is.

And going by places you said you've worked I'd say you're just a scab in the workplace.



An incredibly naïve post from JaSin.

I hope he was trolling.

By the way - where is JaSin?

Haven't seen him since the big orange fella in the US had his fat ass handed to him.



JaSin is at his best whey you cannot understand what he is saying.

The effect is lost when his meaning is clear - like here..
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« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2020 at 5:07pm by Dnarever »  
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #169 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 7:24am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:50am:
Gnads wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am:
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?


'Twisting' would actually be an intellectual advancement on his current routine. To twist something would presumably require FD to know what it was he was twisting in the first place. He has demonstrated pretty clearly that he doesn't have much of a clue what even that is.

I'm not sure if anyone could be more obtuse than FD is being in this discussion if they tried.

This entire thread has consisted of FD:

1. opening with presenting an unsubstantiated and unfleshed thought bubble of Friedman

2. responding to any criticism of the quote with such intellectually profound arguments as "not a single economist will disagree with it" and "its microeconomics 101" and a few different variations of "its right, so there!"

3. running his trademark deflection/interference routine whenever asked for actual evidence for the claim

4. incomprehensibly and without any coherent explanation, repeat the idiotic lie that all the evidence presented that demonstrates the opposite of what Friedman claims, is somehow agreeing with Friedman.


Just because you don't understand it, does not make it incoherent Gandalf, or non-existent. It is incredibly simple. My argument is that unions increase inequality by driving people into non-union dominated industries. You responded with an article that claims that unions create greater equality within the union dominate industries if considered in isolation. The two claims are entirely consistent.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #170 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am
 
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #171 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 2:03pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments.



Grin Grin Grin Grin
Grin Grin Grin Grin


FD, you've found your missing twin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #172 - Nov 19th, 2020 at 1:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 7:24am:
You responded with an article that claims that unions create greater equality within the union dominate industries if considered in isolation.


Wrong.

The entire argument of the article is that unions create greater equality across the board - at least with male workers, female workers not so much.

I have explained to you ad infinitum the rationale behind this - that the equalising "within sector" is so strong that it overrides any disequalising effect that happens between sector (Friedman's phenomenom).

You are claiming that the entire article only argues about the "within sector" effect and assume, wrongly, that it must agree with Friedman because the 'within sector' effect is not inconsistent with Friedman's idea. Yet what you continue to fail to understand is that the paper goes beyond the 'within sector' effect and looks at the effect of unions across the entire board - at a national level, like the whole of the US, the whole of Canada, and the whole of the UK - all countries cited to prove its point. And their conclusion is clear - the overall effect of unions is an equalising effect. That is, plainly and simply, the exact opposite of what Friedman and you believe.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #173 - Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #174 - Nov 24th, 2020 at 1:09pm
 
Hi FD.

I'll take your non-response as your acknowledgement that you were wrong in claiming the article I quoted is only about the equalising effect within union dominated industries - as opposed to arguing an overall equalising effect across the board - and thereby directly contradicting Friedman's claim.

Hopefully this will serve as a more broad lesson about the fraught nature of lecturing someone on a given article's argument that you yourself have not read, but they have.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #175 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:30am
 
Quote:
The entire argument of the article is that unions create greater equality across the board


Not the bit you quoted
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #176 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:50am
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin

It's a common opinion in a lot of workplaces.
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Bubbles
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #177 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 9:52am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:30am:
Quote:
The entire argument of the article is that unions create greater equality across the board


Not the bit you quoted


newsflash FD - I didn't quote the entire article. Who knows, maybe one day you will read it and discover, when you are unable to use your willful ignorance and reliance on cherry picking as a debating tactic, that there really are actual economists who disagree with Friedman - despite your silly claim to the contrary.

As for "the bit" I quoted (or rather, my first quote, not the other two quotes that you conveniently ignore), it merely attests to the equalising effect of unions per se, but gives no indication whatsoever that it also results in Friedman's idea of reduced level of employment in those union sectors, which in turn causes wages to fall in the non-union sectors. You wrongly conclude that it does - with no basis whatsoever. Logically, the existence of the relatively higher wage dispersion in non-union sectors need merely be attributed to the lack of an equalising union presence - as the rest of the article makes abundantly clear.

Perhaps to avoid confusion on your part I should have quoted more - eg:

Quote:
Freeman (1993), using more recent longitudinal data from the 1987-88 CPS, confirmed that unionization reduces wage inequality. On the basis of his longitudinal estimates, he concluded that declining unionization accounted for about 20 percent of the increase in the standard deviation of male wages in the U.S. between 1978 and 1988


That is, looking at it the opposite way - declining unionization = increased inequality - and thats across the board, ie all "male wages in the US" not just within the union sector.

And the overall conclusion of the author the paper quoted:

Quote:
In his landmark paper, Freeman (1980) concluded that, overall, unions tend to reduce wage inequality among men because the inequality-increasing “between-sector” effect is smaller than the dispersion-reducing “within-sector” effect.

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #178 - Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm
 
Quote:
newsflash FD - I didn't quote the entire article. Who knows, maybe one day you will read it and discover


I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted to to prove to myself that it is irrelevant. If you cannot figure out which bit is relevant and post it, I stop there.

Quote:
In his landmark paper, Freeman (1980) concluded that, overall, unions tend to reduce wage inequality among men because the inequality-increasing “between-sector” effect is smaller than the dispersion-reducing “within-sector” effect.


What about if you do not treat men and women separately?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #179 - Dec 11th, 2020 at 10:53am
 
JaSin. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:50am:
Gnads wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin

It's a common opinion in a lot of workplaces.


Is that by a collective of Scabs?

You should form a Union. Grin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #180 - Dec 11th, 2020 at 6:53pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 10:53am:
JaSin. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:50am:
Gnads wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin

It's a common opinion in a lot of workplaces.


Is that by a collective of Scabs?

You should form a Union. Grin


The Honourable Order Of Scabs ....   Grin  Grin  Grin 
a.k.a. the Imperial Guild of Soul-less Parasites.....

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #181 - Dec 11th, 2020 at 8:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted



of course not .... 

By the way, how do you know it's irrelevant if you haven't read it? Is that the same way you know all economists agree with Milton Friedman. Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #182 - Dec 12th, 2020 at 5:41am
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 8:29pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted



of course not .... 

By the way, how do you know it's irrelevant if you haven't read it? Is that the same way you know all economists agree with Milton Friedman. Cheesy Cheesy


The tons of  Trade Union bashing crap he posts is usually lies or irrelevant.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #183 - Dec 15th, 2020 at 7:06pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 8:29pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted



of course not .... 

By the way, how do you know it's irrelevant if you haven't read it? Is that the same way you know all economists agree with Milton Friedman. Cheesy Cheesy


Because you fail to make a coherent point from it. You cannot just copy and paste John. One of these days you will have to learn to think for yourself. Then we won't have to try to guess why you are so confused.

Quote:
The tons of  Trade Union bashing crap he posts is usually lies or irrelevant.


If the hysterics are anything to go by I hit the mark.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #184 - Dec 15th, 2020 at 9:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2020 at 7:06pm:
Because you fail to make a coherent point from it



what has what I say got to do with whether or not the article is relevant? Just admit that instead of being informed, you opted to make it up .
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #185 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 5:51am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2020 at 7:06pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 8:29pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted



of course not .... 

By the way, how do you know it's irrelevant if you haven't read it? Is that the same way you know all economists agree with Milton Friedman. Cheesy Cheesy


Because you fail to make a coherent point from it. You cannot just copy and paste John. One of these days you will have to learn to think for yourself. Then we won't have to try to guess why you are so confused.

Quote:
The tons of  Trade Union bashing crap he posts is usually lies or irrelevant.


If the hysterics are anything to go by I hit the mark.


You couldn't hit a bull elephant in the arse with a bucket of rice.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #186 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 11:14am
 

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted to to prove to myself that it is irrelevant. If you cannot figure out which bit is relevant and post it, I stop there.


It is a paper that is literally about proving that unions reduce wage inequality with actual real world data. Or in other words, it directly refutes the claim in the thread topic, as well as an even more stupid claim of yours - that no economist would disagree with Friedman's cliam. Understandable I suppose why you would think such a paper is "irrelevant crap".

Quote:
What about if you do not treat men and women separately?


If you're asking is the disequalising effect on women so strong that it overrides the reverse effect on men, the answer is no. Not even close. The impact on unions on women workers is not the reverse of men - it just isn't equalising or disequalising.

But in any case, I highly doubt that Friedman's brainfart was contingent entirely on the effect happening only to women.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #187 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 11:16am
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 8:29pm:
By the way, how do you know it's irrelevant if you haven't read it?


bing!
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #188 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 11:45am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16th, 2020 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted to to prove to myself that it is irrelevant. If you cannot figure out which bit is relevant and post it, I stop there.


It is a paper that is literally about proving that unions reduce wage inequality with actual real world data. Or in other words, it directly refutes the claim in the thread topic, as well as an even more stupid claim of yours - that no economist would disagree with Friedman's cliam. Understandable I suppose why you would think such a paper is "irrelevant crap".

Quote:
What about if you do not treat men and women separately?


If you're asking is the disequalising effect on women so strong that it overrides the reverse effect on men, the answer is no. Not even close. The impact on unions on women workers is not the reverse of men - it just isn't equalising or disequalising.

But in any case, I highly doubt that Friedman's brainfart was contingent entirely on the effect happening only to women. 


This needs exploring........... no woman is worse off than any man under the rules regardless of unions or otherwise ....... real average incomes per hour have tipped in favour of women.... largely due to unwarranted preference and affirmative action starting at school level (see my post on the blurb from the Russian defector) to 'redress' past alleged 'wrongs' - how many years are we expected to swallow that?

Comments????
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #189 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:34am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16th, 2020 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted to to prove to myself that it is irrelevant. If you cannot figure out which bit is relevant and post it, I stop there.


It is a paper that is literally about proving that unions reduce wage inequality with actual real world data. Or in other words, it directly refutes the claim in the thread topic, as well as an even more stupid claim of yours - that no economist would disagree with Friedman's cliam. Understandable I suppose why you would think such a paper is "irrelevant crap".

Quote:
What about if you do not treat men and women separately?


If you're asking is the disequalising effect on women so strong that it overrides the reverse effect on men, the answer is no. Not even close. The impact on unions on women workers is not the reverse of men - it just isn't equalising or disequalising.

But in any case, I highly doubt that Friedman's brainfart was contingent entirely on the effect happening only to women. 


So why did you only quote the bit with the caveat that it only applies if you restrict your analysis to one particular group?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #190 - Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:38am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2020 at 7:06pm:
If the hysterics are anything to go by I hit the mark.



IF one day you actually hit the mark, then you'll hit the mark. Pretending you hit it is no substitute for reality
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #191 - Dec 23rd, 2020 at 8:44am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 20th, 2020 at 8:34am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16th, 2020 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm:
I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted to to prove to myself that it is irrelevant. If you cannot figure out which bit is relevant and post it, I stop there.


It is a paper that is literally about proving that unions reduce wage inequality with actual real world data. Or in other words, it directly refutes the claim in the thread topic, as well as an even more stupid claim of yours - that no economist would disagree with Friedman's cliam. Understandable I suppose why you would think such a paper is "irrelevant crap".

Quote:
What about if you do not treat men and women separately?


If you're asking is the disequalising effect on women so strong that it overrides the reverse effect on men, the answer is no. Not even close. The impact on unions on women workers is not the reverse of men - it just isn't equalising or disequalising.

But in any case, I highly doubt that Friedman's brainfart was contingent entirely on the effect happening only to women. 


So why did you only quote the bit with the caveat that it only applies if you restrict your analysis to one particular group?


You are wrong FD.

The only way you don't get an overall equalising effect is if you restrict your analysis to one group - ie women. Yet even there Friedman would still be wrong, since there is no disequalising effect as he promised.

You in fact get an overall equalising effect (according to the paper), if you include both men and women - which is what we should be doing. It requires cherry picking of the data just to get no equalising effect, but you still won't get what you and Friedman claim happens - ie a disequalising effect. Ergo, the paper proves you wrong - on two counts.
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Re: Unions increase inequalityG
Reply #192 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:11am
 
Gandalf, why is it that every time you quote from this Freeman paper and criticise me for not reading the whole thing, it seems to have been published in a different year, says something different to the previous time you quoted it, and there is no link to where you got it from?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #193 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:42am
 
Anyway, unions don't increase inequality - many factors of inequality create inequality, and the headline is false in intent... if the occasional contract, under government compulsion given the rules these days, means some workers in the same industry and jobs get more and others less - within the 'safety nets'* - that is not 'equality' in the true sense, but merely common contracts separated by a common language and unions do not control contracts ...... as for employment - unions do not control that... neither does government despite its perpetual claims of 'creating jobs', and often - neither does management since often they have no idea what they are doing anyway but merely blunder along.

Shame, FD, shame...

* same as some sheila whining that she's only paid $1.8m to appear on daily TV but some bloke is paid $2m - BOTH are massively overpaid compared to the average journalist - same as a bit player is massively underpaid next to a star, but both are never paid below the safety net....
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #194 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:48am
 
Quote:
as for employment - unions do not control that... neither does government despite its perpetual claims of 'creating jobs'


Sure they do. There is a direct link between minimum wages (whether they be by government dictate or collusion), unemployment benefits etc, and levels of employment.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #195 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 6:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:48am:
Quote:
as for employment - unions do not control that... neither does government despite its perpetual claims of 'creating jobs'


Sure they do. There is a direct link between minimum wages (whether they be by government dictate or collusion), unemployment benefits etc, and levels of employment.


The last time that an increase to the minimum wage resulted in an increase to unemployment nobody here was alive.

Every time the minimum wage has been increased the Right have claimed there would be increased unemployment - never happened. Just like reducing penalty rates was going to increase employment. Whoops it led to less emp0loyment in the industry.

Gotta love the right and their voodoo economics.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #196 - Jan 3rd, 2021 at 6:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:48am:
Quote:
as for employment - unions do not control that... neither does government despite its perpetual claims of 'creating jobs'


Sure they do. There is a direct link between minimum wages (whether they be by government dictate or collusion), unemployment benefits etc, and levels of employment.



... along with much more major influences such as national fiscal policy, international adherence to the global economy, focus on economic activity by governments that funnel the type of 'business' adventurism and gangster capitalism they seem to adore these days as long as it pays them, and an utter lack of respect for your own people and nation along with a complete and well-padded indifference to what you are doing to so many......

Stalin would have been proud....

There is no 'link' between minimum wages and unemployment - Mexico has a dismal minimal wage and their unemployment is massive..... same-same the United States.....

US minimum wage = $7.25

US unemployment Rate = 6.7%

Australian minimum wage = $19.84

Australian unemployment rate = 6.8%

How is OUR higher minimum wage impacting on employment?
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Re: Unions increase inequalityG
Reply #197 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 10:33am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:11am:
Gandalf, why is it that every time you quote from this Freeman paper and criticise me for not reading the whole thing, it seems to have been published in a different year, says something different to the previous time you quoted it, and there is no link to where you got it from?


a) it is not a "Freeman paper", but merely quotes Freeman to support its overall argument - which I have conveyed to you multiple times now.

b) the link to the paper was given to you, but as usual you miss it and/or ignore it and then pretend that was all my fault.

c) rather than just doing what a normal person would do and simply read the damn paper for yourself to allay your obvious confusion about what it says - you instead opt for second guessing it, insisting I have not spoonfed you enough, and generally absolve yourself from needing to understand any of the relevant facts that directly refute the BS claims you base this thread on. But of course we all know you only do this because you know the article directly refutes your BS, and you cannot deny this.

d) all of a, b - but mostly c, is why I criticise you.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #198 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 10:35am
 
Can you give the link again?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #199 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 11:10am
 
Look it up FD. I'm sick of spoonfeeding you.

I promise you its in this thread - the very first time I quoted the article.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #200 - Jan 6th, 2021 at 2:08pm
 
Didn't think so.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #201 - Jan 7th, 2021 at 12:06pm
 
How pathetic can you get FD?

Seriously, I really am struggling to think of anything more pathetic than lying about someone's posting of evidence as a way of avoiding reading the evidence. Can you FD?

How many times have you accused me of not posting something only for me to post the link and/or post# to prove you wrong? It would have to be well into double figures now wouldn't you say? Do you reckon I've learned my lesson now? Do you understand that I would merely go through the exact same search to find and post the link that you would do?

Why would you expect me to continue spoonfeeding you FD? Once or twice may be excusable... I would even consider it if it was a genuine case of not being able to locate it - as opposed to straight out accusing me of not providing the link, when you obviously hadn't even bothered to check.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #202 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:44pm
 
Quote:
Do you understand that I would merely go through the exact same search to find and post the link that you would do?


No you wouldn't. Seeing as you posted about 20 quotes from it, I expect you know how to find it fairly easily. Not sure what you are trying to hide here.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #203 - Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:51pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 6:29pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:48am:
Quote:
as for employment - unions do not control that... neither does government despite its perpetual claims of 'creating jobs'


Sure they do. There is a direct link between minimum wages (whether they be by government dictate or collusion), unemployment benefits etc, and levels of employment.



... along with much more major influences such as national fiscal policy, international adherence to the global economy, focus on economic activity by governments that funnel the type of 'business' adventurism and gangster capitalism they seem to adore these days as long as it pays them, and an utter lack of respect for your own people and nation along with a complete and well-padded indifference to what you are doing to so many......

Stalin would have been proud....

There is no 'link' between minimum wages and unemployment - Mexico has a dismal minimal wage and their unemployment is massive..... same-same the United States.....

US minimum wage = $7.25

US unemployment Rate = 6.7%

Australian minimum wage = $19.84

Australian unemployment rate = 6.8%

How is OUR higher minimum wage impacting on employment?


Fairly obvious by the numbers is we drop the minimum wage by about $12 we can improve employment by about 0.1% no - or is that just a measurement error ?


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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #204 - Jan 18th, 2021 at 12:50pm
 
Here's one for FDs apprentice Union Basher JASIN.
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Joining_a_Union.jpg (101 KB | 1 )
Joining_a_Union.jpg

Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #205 - Jan 18th, 2021 at 1:40pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:51pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 6:29pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2021 at 10:48am:
Quote:
as for employment - unions do not control that... neither does government despite its perpetual claims of 'creating jobs'


Sure they do. There is a direct link between minimum wages (whether they be by government dictate or collusion), unemployment benefits etc, and levels of employment.



... along with much more major influences such as national fiscal policy, international adherence to the global economy, focus on economic activity by governments that funnel the type of 'business' adventurism and gangster capitalism they seem to adore these days as long as it pays them, and an utter lack of respect for your own people and nation along with a complete and well-padded indifference to what you are doing to so many......

Stalin would have been proud....

There is no 'link' between minimum wages and unemployment - Mexico has a dismal minimal wage and their unemployment is massive..... same-same the United States.....

US minimum wage = $7.25

US unemployment Rate = 6.7%

Australian minimum wage = $19.84

Australian unemployment rate = 6.8%

How is OUR higher minimum wage impacting on employment?


Fairly obvious by the numbers is we drop the minimum wage by about $12 we can improve employment by about 0.1% no - or is that just a measurement error ?




In pure figures - probably close - in the real world - not at all.  These equations are not susceptible to pure mathematical calculation... it's a societal thing... more like chaos theory.  Most of the factors involved cannot be ... factored in......

The likelihood is more that with lower minimum wage, less purchasing power of the many means less purchasing, and therefore less employment by business who will suffer a severe downturn, probably into the negative.

Same as the figures I did (might re-do them some time) that said several years ago that in order to 'compete' with vastly lower Asian wage rates, the average Australian worker would need to drop around $17 an hour and would thus be unable to buy anything produced in Asia by our fancy-dancing businesses.  How do you buy a new Forden Supawheeler GST Turbo Special worth $95k when you earn Indian rates of pay = $180 a week or so?

https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

Footnote:-  Interestingly, US AVERAGE weekly earnings are considerably higher than Australia's - and we all know the vast disparity between the low paid and the high paid here - with a far lower 'minimum wage' over there, obviously the disparity between the well paid and the poor is much greater.  No wonder they loved Trump with the higher average incomes generated by his policies.

AWE is calculated on 'wage and salary earners' not including higher management etc.... capisce?  Stick around - you'll learn something every day at Grappler U - The Real U!

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