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Unions increase inequality (Read 18278 times)
freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #90 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #91 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:11am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


You'd know.... you the expert at dribbling poo.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Ajax
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #92 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #93 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:49am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?


An example of an economist who disagrees with you and Friedman, obviously.

Apparently that theory went out of fashion in the 70s.

freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
No I don't. You are struggling with the English language, that is all.


Grin
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Jest
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #94 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss


Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries. In other words whatever BS freediver can tell to serve his purposes for the moment freediver will tell.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Ajax
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #95 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:59am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss


Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries. In other words whatever BS freediver can tell to serve his purposes for the moment freediver will tell. 


Sums it up nicely................... Cool

In my own words "he is full of sh!t"....!
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #96 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 10:24am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am:
Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda.


Good point! He also boasted about how he got himself far better work conditions than any union could have given him.

Actually this same contradictory messaging has been an enduring feature of the broader ideological war against unions: on the one hand workers have to be told that unions are no good for them, union bosses are corrupt and only lining their own pockets etc etc - but on the other hand they have to acknowledge their effectiveness at improving pay and conditions - in order to run their favourite lines like "unions are driving small business to the ground!" and "Union pay demands = runaway inflation!!"
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #97 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:14pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:49am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?


An example of an economist who disagrees with you and Friedman, obviously.


Not really that obvious Gandalf. You quoted someone agreeing with Friedman.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #98 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:19pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:56am:
Ajax wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:36pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm:
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.


Banal circular logic (ie dribbling poo) is not economics.


And your theory about unions is.........?!?!?

Not one person has agreed with you....!!

BYE...............!.............. Wink Smiley Cheesy Tongue Kiss


Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries. In other words whatever BS freediver can tell to serve his purposes for the moment freediver will tell. 


Grin Grin Grin
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #99 - Oct 8th, 2020 at 1:21am
 
"Isnt there another thread where freediver argues that the claims that unions have increased pay and conditions is not true and just union propaganda. And yet here he argues that unionised industries pay workers better forcing other workers to look for work in other industries."

A bit like the inherent contradictions of the social worker classes... one unnamed here works to get certain kids to go to school, works against the volume of violence in their communities, accepts without question that up to 90% of that violence is unreported and/or never actioned - yet says that demographic has too high an incarceration rate...

I do not name the actual poster here, for the simple reason that these deficiencies are part and parcel of that 'social worker class', and are absorbed in their 'training'.

Holds as much reality as the shamanic concept that powdered rhino horn, by virtue of the horn being hard and upright, will give a man a hard and upright penis (horn) ..... forest and the trees, innit - like Forrest Gump disappearing across that paddock when being chased... can't see the Forrest for the trees....

Not that I'm slagging anyone here - to do that you need to address them directly..... Tongue right, Smithy?  You're our resident expert......   Tongue
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #100 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 11:46am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:14pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:49am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?


An example of an economist who disagrees with you and Friedman, obviously.


Not really that obvious Gandalf. You quoted someone agreeing with Friedman.


Did you actually confuse "Friedman" with "Freeman"? Because thats the only way that claim of yours makes any sense. Although it would require you to conclude that Friedman was arguing the exact opposite to what you claimed in the OP.

But no need to get confused by Freeman - the article is chock full of economists who argue the opposite of Friedman - eg:

Quote:
DiNardo and Lemieux (1997) implemented a
reweighting technique to construct estimates of the sum of the terms in equation (4) for men in the U.S.
and Canada in 1981 and 1988. They estimated that in 1981 the presence of unions reduced the variance of male wages by 6 percent in the U.S. and 10 percent in Canada.


...

Quote:
The study by Bell and Pitt (1998) used DFL’s method to analyse the impact of declining
unionization on the growth in wage inequality in Britain. Depending on the data source used, they found
that between 10 and 25 percent of the increase in male wage inequality can be explained by the fall in unionization.

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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #101 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:49pm
 
Not sure how they got to their conclusions, but this:

Quote:
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


is basically the same as what Friedman claims.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #102 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 12:49pm:
Not sure how they got to their conclusions, but this:

Quote:
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


is basically the same as what Friedman claims.


How so? All that study is saying is that unionized workers within a given sector have less wage inequality than their non-union counterparts. Which is really a no-brainer. It says nothing about Friedman's thesis that the unionization of one part of the sector directly causing wage inequality in the non-unionized part. Basically the study is cited only as an example of the reducing effect unions have on wage inequality - in this case within sector. It of course doesn't, in itself, disprove Friedman's thesis, but nor does it support it. But one of the arguments of the article is that this 'within-sector' effect is so great that it largely overrides all other influences of wage inequality, thus creating an overall net wage inequality reduction across the board.
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #103 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:18pm
 
Quote:
All that study is saying is that unionized workers within a given sector


Obviously if you exclude the way that unions increase wage inequality, you will end up coming to a conclusion that is the opposite of reality. If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.

Quote:
Which is really a no-brainer.


I can always rely on you for them Gandalf.

Quote:
It says nothing about Friedman's thesis


It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #104 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 3:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:18pm:
If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.


Grin Grin of course - all two and a half lines of it.

The OP is at best the opening of an argument - an argument that as yet has no flesh and no shred of supporting evidence. Seven pages in, and I don't believe you've presented any shred of evidence. Though that of course is par for the course for you. The quote in the OP was directly addressed in the article I quoted, and directly refuted by actual evidence. Evidence, mind you, from economists that you previously assured us did not exist.

freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story


Grin Grin ignoring half the story eh? stop it FD, you're killing me.
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