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Unions increase inequality (Read 18259 times)
Ajax
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #75 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 12:30pm
 
Hey FD Economics 101

If people have no money to spend then the whole economy goes down the toilet.

So keeping people on low wages just enough to put a bowl of rice on the table is not a good idea.

I'm sure you will agree.

And again your argument is nonsensical.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #76 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am:
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.


Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.

Are you saying you agree with me that unions increase wage inequality?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #77 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:21pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:59am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:49am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage


It's fairly simple logic jest. If you think it helps the unions to counter logical criticism with your whiny hysteria, be my guest.


You can say that until your blue in the face, it wont make it right just by you repeating it. Though I grant you that's how propaganda works. If you keep repeating a falsehood there are those who will believe your falsehoods.


It's simple logic jest. This means you can point out the logical errors in anything you disagree with, rather than constantly whining about it.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #78 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54pm
 

77 posts and nobody agrees:

...
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #79 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:21pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:59am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:49am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:17am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 9:03am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:55am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:54am:
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:47pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 6:27pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.



Yeah I'll bite again.

Pharque off with your Union bashing bullshyte.

Bottom line is they wouldn't exist if it weren't for greedy unscrupulous employers.

Your whole attitude is that of a conservative elitist prig.


I think this is typical of how the unionists react to unpalatable truths.


Ah - so the constant attacks on unions and unionists as 'thugs' and 'standover merchants' etc are not in the same vein?  Shorten was a union personage, and yet you are happy to dismiss him as a milquetoast - hardly fits with the thug image purveyed by the elitists, does it?

You need to get out more, FD, and see the world as it really is.


The accusations of thuggery have nothing to do with the economics of unionism. Or at least, only indirectly. Yet they are also a valid criticism of the unions. We basically had to send in the riot squad to bring the unions into line. If not a building site would be a scary place for a non-unionist today. The wharves still are, for some reason.

I can start a different thread on union thuggery if you don't feel up to discussing how unions increase inequality. Just let me know.


So after all that you just typed you want us to believe you presented an impartial argument about unions and inequality.What was it you said; "We" basically had to send in the riot squad. We? You and Friedman are propagandists. You look for the conclusion you want and then concoct a BS argument to suit. 


Stop whining. Who cares whether it is 'impartial'? Surely what matters is whether it is true?

And that's the point. If you know the conclusion you want and then work backwards to concoct the argument that will give you that conclusion, your conclusion is not worth sh*t. That's why its most important to be impartial & you have made clear you have no intention of being impartial. So why should we waste any time with you and your cheap propaganda. Better to just ignore you but warn others that neoliberals are desperate ATM because their rigged system is being challenged like never B4 and so they will hire as many bots as they can & tell any BS to hang on to their advantage


It's fairly simple logic jest. If you think it helps the unions to counter logical criticism with your whiny hysteria, be my guest.


You can say that until your blue in the face, it wont make it right just by you repeating it. Though I grant you that's how propaganda works. If you keep repeating a falsehood there are those who will believe your falsehoods.


It's simple logic jest. This means you can point out the logical errors in anything you disagree with, rather than constantly whining about it.


Ive tried to have an intelligent conversation with you a few times but frankly I've found that your not up to it. Inevitably we just go around in circles with you denying some of the most basic obvious truths to fit in with your preferred conclusion and from what I can gather Im not the only one who has had that experience with you. So why would I do that again?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #80 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am:
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.


Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.

Are you saying you agree with me that unions increase wage inequality?


Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.  Pursuit of catch-up wages is a reaction, not a cause, and the only differences between various workplaces of the same kind are conditions etc. If you're building a power station 1000 miles from civilisation and your workforce, you cannot expect them to travel every day to get to work.... there are provisions for accommodation and meals etc that must be met, and even remote area allowances that may raise an over all INCOME, but not the actual wage rate.

Once again, Friedman and others like-minded cannot discuss a single issue in isolation, but must take a holistic approach to all reasons and causes.

Friedman's position is a fine argument for a total return to Awards, since obviously negotiating in good faith is beyond most 'managers' these days. - they either take too much or cannot resist the pressure of facts and give too much sometimes - but that is hardly the fault of the union movement.  Return to Awards then.

Friedman's position here is a facile way of trying to shift the blame via half- and quarter-truths and somehow make unions and workers responsible for the ills of society at this time under its dark cloak of global economism and capitalism rampant and unchecked.

You can thank that moron weasel Howard for that - may he rot in hell.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #81 - Oct 4th, 2020 at 3:01pm
 
Quote:
Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.


Is there anything in particular you disagree with? Or do you just not like it? In the spirit of removing the hyperbole, I removed the entire rest of your post.
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #82 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 6:38am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:23pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 11:54am:
But freed - the very same argument can be made about anything that continually drives up wages - such as privatisation, increased costs of production, poor management of national resources, zooming executive incomes and bonuses, happy times for shareholders and so forth...

The fact that Friedman picks out unionism as the sole cause is pure nonsense.... as I said - worker wages go up CHASING rises in all other costs, so looking at worker wages in isolation is a lost cause, since it is the last cab off the rank.


Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.

Are you saying you agree with me that unions increase wage inequality?


Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.  Pursuit of catch-up wages is a reaction, not a cause, and the only differences between various workplaces of the same kind are conditions etc. If you're building a power station 1000 miles from civilisation and your workforce, you cannot expect them to travel every day to get to work.... there are provisions for accommodation and meals etc that must be met, and even remote area allowances that may raise an over all INCOME, but not the actual wage rate.

Once again, Friedman and others like-minded cannot discuss a single issue in isolation, but must take a holistic approach to all reasons and causes.

Friedman's position is a fine argument for a total return to Awards, since obviously negotiating in good faith is beyond most 'managers' these days. - they either take too much or cannot resist the pressure of facts and give too much sometimes - but that is hardly the fault of the union movement.  Return to Awards then.

Friedman's position here is a facile way of trying to shift the blame via half- and quarter-truths and somehow make unions and workers responsible for the ills of society at this time under its dark cloak of global economism and capitalism rampant and unchecked.

You can thank that moron weasel Howard for that - may he rot in hell
.


Exactly.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #83 - Oct 5th, 2020 at 6:40am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 3:01pm:
Quote:
Let us first remove the hyperbole - no - I am not agreeing with you that unions increase wage inequality.


Is there anything in particular you disagree with? Or do you just not like it? In the spirit of removing the hyperbole, I removed the entire rest of your post.


Did you ask his permission? Or is selective editing also a forte of yours?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #84 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 9:52am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:04pm:
Ive tried to have an intelligent conversation with you a few times but frankly I've found that your not up to it. Inevitably we just go around in circles with you denying some of the most basic obvious truths to fit in with your preferred conclusion and from what I can gather Im not the only one who has had that experience with you. So why would I do that again?


You've summed up at least 8 years worth of FD's contributions on this forum.

Believe me, I know.

Sadly for me, I don't ask myself that last question nearly enough.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #85 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 10:08am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.


Whether or not you were just being careless with your words, you actually did:

Quote:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


Note highlighted part. Intentionally or not, you clearly ascribe a sole cause for people not being able to get a job in a particular industry (and thus setting off the chain of events that supposedly leads to inequality).

I also call bullshit on your claim that not a single economist disagrees with you.

Just one salient example:

Quote:
In
nonmanufacturing industries, Freeman concluded that the net impact of unions was smaller, reflecting
both a smaller “within-sector” effect and larger “between-sector” effect. Subsequent research has
confirmed that wage differences between different demographic and skill groups are lower, and often
much lower, in the union sector than in the nonunion sector.4
The residual variance of wages within
demographic and skill groups is also generally lower in the union sector.
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/union-wage.pdf
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Jest
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #86 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 11:11am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 9:52am:
Jest wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 2:04pm:
Ive tried to have an intelligent conversation with you a few times but frankly I've found that your not up to it. Inevitably we just go around in circles with you denying some of the most basic obvious truths to fit in with your preferred conclusion and from what I can gather Im not the only one who has had that experience with you. So why would I do that again?


You've summed up at least 8 years worth of FD's contributions on this forum.

Believe me, I know.

Sadly for me, I don't ask myself that last question nearly enough.


Wink Smiley
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #87 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:03pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 10:08am:
freediver wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 1:18pm:
Neither Friedman nor I have been talking sole causes. That's just one of the many hysterical counterarguments that have been presented.


Whether or not you were just being careless with your words, you actually did:

Quote:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


Note highlighted part. Intentionally or not, you clearly ascribe a sole cause for people not being able to get a job in a particular industry (and thus setting off the chain of events that supposedly leads to inequality).


No I don't. You are struggling with the English language, that is all.

Quote:
I also call bullshit on your claim that not a single economist disagrees with you.

Just one salient example:

Quote:
In
nonmanufacturing industries, Freeman concluded that the net impact of unions was smaller, reflecting
both a smaller “within-sector” effect and larger “between-sector” effect. Subsequent research has
confirmed that wage differences between different demographic and skill groups are lower, and often
much lower, in the union sector than in the nonunion sector.4
The residual variance of wages within
demographic and skill groups is also generally lower in the union sector.
Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/union-wage.pdf


Can you explain what point you are trying to make here Gandalf?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #88 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:11pm
 
FD people have to have money to spend money.

Economics 101

Otherwise your economy goes down the toilet.

That's why the government has adopted fiscal policy and is injecting money into the economy left right and centre.

Do you not understand this principle that if people haven't got money to spend then Australia has no economy.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #89 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:25pm
 
BTW where are the big multinationals that have grown fat of the land for decades.

Why doesn't Gina contribute to stimulate the economy.

Neo-liberalism 101 government shouldn't interfere in the day to day running of business and all will sort itself out.

MFA..........................LOL

Where are they FD the big multinationals that have made billions out of the Australian economy.

Where is their contribution to the road out of covid-19.
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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