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Unions increase inequality (Read 5497 times)
Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #165 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:44am
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're full of shyte ... it's a fact that workers in Union negotiated EBA workplaces have higher wages and better conditions.

You must be blind not to have seen all the cases of wage theft going on in non Union workplaces?

You show your ignorance using the music industry as an example. What a cut throat and fickle industry it is.

And going by places you said you've worked I'd say you're just a scab in the workplace.

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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #166 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:59am
 
I'd venture to say that crap companies create the environment in which their employees work like crap..... not the other way around... a pure  volunteer employee group willing to contribute to something they feel they are part of is much better than conscript labour.

Boeing - way back in the 1970's-80's found that having a 'team' approach producing 'their' aircraft from start to finish, as opposed to an assembly line process - resulted in over 90% FEWER warranty returns and repairs... the same 'team' went out to do warranty repairs and replacements, thus learning from any mistakes....

I once explained that to a 'management' and their eyes went glazed with incomprehension..... no idea at all.... they wanted master/servant and total control like some Untersharfuhrer on the Konzentrationslager block... and with about the same level of knowledge and talent....  I also explained to them how to get around their 'block' created by using RPG to generate their paperwork - it is very basic and starts at 0.00 and thus did not really fit a 24 hour operation with varied starting times etc... again with the glazed look.....

Lot of that doing the rounds these days.... Man Agement is the true term... they sure make the men feel old...  Shocked ... oh - and not one of them ever stood a watch in the workplace to get a feel for what it was all about.....   Roll Eyes

Colonel Hal Moore : To follow your instincts and to inspire your men, by your example, you have to be with 'em. Where the metal meets the meat.


... and I don't mean pepperoni on a pizza tray....
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #167 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 10:45am
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're full of shyte ... it's a fact that workers in Union negotiated EBA workplaces have higher wages and better conditions.

You must be blind not to have seen all the cases of wage theft going on in non Union workplaces?

You show your ignorance using the music industry as an example. What a cut throat and fickle industry it is.

And going by places you said you've worked I'd say you're just a scab in the workplace.



An incredibly naďve post from JaSin.

I hope he was trolling.

By the way - where is JaSin?

Haven't seen him since the big orange fella in the US had his fat ass handed to him.

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Dnarever
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #168 - Nov 9th, 2020 at 11:19am
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 9th, 2020 at 10:45am:
Gnads wrote on Nov 9th, 2020 at 8:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


You're full of shyte ... it's a fact that workers in Union negotiated EBA workplaces have higher wages and better conditions.

You must be blind not to have seen all the cases of wage theft going on in non Union workplaces?

You show your ignorance using the music industry as an example. What a cut throat and fickle industry it is.

And going by places you said you've worked I'd say you're just a scab in the workplace.



An incredibly naďve post from JaSin.

I hope he was trolling.

By the way - where is JaSin?

Haven't seen him since the big orange fella in the US had his fat ass handed to him.



JaSin is at his best whey you cannot understand what he is saying.

The effect is lost when his meaning is clear - like here..
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« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2020 at 5:07pm by Dnarever »  
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #169 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 7:24am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 9:50am:
Gnads wrote on Oct 21st, 2020 at 8:35am:
Always twisting ... that's FD.

And that's not dancing.

He ought have a think if nobody on here can read what he types or pastes correctly.....

then why does he bother?

Ego? narcissism? or just simply being a prat?


'Twisting' would actually be an intellectual advancement on his current routine. To twist something would presumably require FD to know what it was he was twisting in the first place. He has demonstrated pretty clearly that he doesn't have much of a clue what even that is.

I'm not sure if anyone could be more obtuse than FD is being in this discussion if they tried.

This entire thread has consisted of FD:

1. opening with presenting an unsubstantiated and unfleshed thought bubble of Friedman

2. responding to any criticism of the quote with such intellectually profound arguments as "not a single economist will disagree with it" and "its microeconomics 101" and a few different variations of "its right, so there!"

3. running his trademark deflection/interference routine whenever asked for actual evidence for the claim

4. incomprehensibly and without any coherent explanation, repeat the idiotic lie that all the evidence presented that demonstrates the opposite of what Friedman claims, is somehow agreeing with Friedman.


Just because you don't understand it, does not make it incoherent Gandalf, or non-existent. It is incredibly simple. My argument is that unions increase inequality by driving people into non-union dominated industries. You responded with an article that claims that unions create greater equality within the union dominate industries if considered in isolation. The two claims are entirely consistent.
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JaSin.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #170 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am
 
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #171 - Nov 16th, 2020 at 2:03pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments.



Grin Grin Grin Grin
Grin Grin Grin Grin


FD, you've found your missing twin
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #172 - Nov 19th, 2020 at 1:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 7:24am:
You responded with an article that claims that unions create greater equality within the union dominate industries if considered in isolation.


Wrong.

The entire argument of the article is that unions create greater equality across the board - at least with male workers, female workers not so much.

I have explained to you ad infinitum the rationale behind this - that the equalising "within sector" is so strong that it overrides any disequalising effect that happens between sector (Friedman's phenomenom).

You are claiming that the entire article only argues about the "within sector" effect and assume, wrongly, that it must agree with Friedman because the 'within sector' effect is not inconsistent with Friedman's idea. Yet what you continue to fail to understand is that the paper goes beyond the 'within sector' effect and looks at the effect of unions across the entire board - at a national level, like the whole of the US, the whole of Canada, and the whole of the UK - all countries cited to prove its point. And their conclusion is clear - the overall effect of unions is an equalising effect. That is, plainly and simply, the exact opposite of what Friedman and you believe.
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #173 - Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am
 
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin
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The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #174 - Nov 24th, 2020 at 1:09pm
 
Hi FD.

I'll take your non-response as your acknowledgement that you were wrong in claiming the article I quoted is only about the equalising effect within union dominated industries - as opposed to arguing an overall equalising effect across the board - and thereby directly contradicting Friedman's claim.

Hopefully this will serve as a more broad lesson about the fraught nature of lecturing someone on a given article's argument that you yourself have not read, but they have.
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #175 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:30am
 
Quote:
The entire argument of the article is that unions create greater equality across the board


Not the bit you quoted
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JaSin.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #176 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:50am
 
Gnads wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin

It's a common opinion in a lot of workplaces.
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Bubbles
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #177 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 9:52am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:30am:
Quote:
The entire argument of the article is that unions create greater equality across the board


Not the bit you quoted


newsflash FD - I didn't quote the entire article. Who knows, maybe one day you will read it and discover, when you are unable to use your willful ignorance and reliance on cherry picking as a debating tactic, that there really are actual economists who disagree with Friedman - despite your silly claim to the contrary.

As for "the bit" I quoted (or rather, my first quote, not the other two quotes that you conveniently ignore), it merely attests to the equalising effect of unions per se, but gives no indication whatsoever that it also results in Friedman's idea of reduced level of employment in those union sectors, which in turn causes wages to fall in the non-union sectors. You wrongly conclude that it does - with no basis whatsoever. Logically, the existence of the relatively higher wage dispersion in non-union sectors need merely be attributed to the lack of an equalising union presence - as the rest of the article makes abundantly clear.

Perhaps to avoid confusion on your part I should have quoted more - eg:

Quote:
Freeman (1993), using more recent longitudinal data from the 1987-88 CPS, confirmed that unionization reduces wage inequality. On the basis of his longitudinal estimates, he concluded that declining unionization accounted for about 20 percent of the increase in the standard deviation of male wages in the U.S. between 1978 and 1988


That is, looking at it the opposite way - declining unionization = increased inequality - and thats across the board, ie all "male wages in the US" not just within the union sector.

And the overall conclusion of the author the paper quoted:

Quote:
In his landmark paper, Freeman (1980) concluded that, overall, unions tend to reduce wage inequality among men because the inequality-increasing “between-sector” effect is smaller than the dispersion-reducing “within-sector” effect.

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« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2020 at 9:58am by polite_gandalf »  

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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #178 - Dec 10th, 2020 at 3:49pm
 
Quote:
newsflash FD - I didn't quote the entire article. Who knows, maybe one day you will read it and discover


I am not going to bother reading the tons of irrelevant crap posted to to prove to myself that it is irrelevant. If you cannot figure out which bit is relevant and post it, I stop there.

Quote:
In his landmark paper, Freeman (1980) concluded that, overall, unions tend to reduce wage inequality among men because the inequality-increasing “between-sector” effect is smaller than the dispersion-reducing “within-sector” effect.


What about if you do not treat men and women separately?
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #179 - Dec 11th, 2020 at 10:53am
 
JaSin. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:50am:
Gnads wrote on Nov 20th, 2020 at 7:44am:
JaSin. wrote on Nov 16th, 2020 at 11:59am:
FD is right. Many workers shy away from heavily Unionised Employments. The Unions also seem to hang off the Industries that make the most money. You might get the odd dead-beat Union Rep in some low paying job who tells you they'll get back to you next month's meeting upon an issue.
So apparently on the Big Earners like Mining attract the Union focus and dedication. Not there for you if there is no money in it for them.



What nonsense. Grin

It's a common opinion in a lot of workplaces.


Is that by a collective of Scabs?

You should form a Union. Grin
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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