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Unions increase inequality (Read 5496 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #135 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 10:30am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
Quote:
What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages


Quote:
That's not what your evidence said.


Its literally exactly what the evidence said. It does actually help if you read what we're discussing FD. Then you might avoid tying yourself in knots saying one minute the conclusions they reach is wrong because they leave out "half the story", and then the next minute saying actually the conclusions they reach agree with Friedman.

I've explained to you so many times now what the article concludes, and how, with explicit reference to the actual article. You on the other hand respond with vague hand waving about crap you can't even demonstrate is even in the article.

Quote:
Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?


Where it states, quite explicitly, the restricted set of wages it considers. I believe I quoted the sentence the first time I pointed this out to you.


I'm presuming, because its the only part of the article you quoted back to me, you are referring to this:

Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


No idea what you think are the "restricted set of wages" being "explicitly" referred to here. Feel free to clarify.

In fact, feel free to clarify your entire argument - if you have one. So far the most specific you've been is parrotting a vague Friedman quote and asserting "its economics 101".
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #136 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 12:29pm
 
Well - even the Little Rat Weasel's Work"Choices" stipulated that no payment for the same work could fall below the award rates... of course, the game plan was that so much confusion would prevail that very thing would actually occur in many cases, with the managers trying every way - including blatant thuggery and standover - to force lower wages for the same work on employees.

Look at the story Gnads put out yesterday... par for the course.

What are my choices?

Take it or leave it!

Time to return to a full Awards system, methinks, and let them eat it for a while.  Trickledown has as much effect as a sprinkler turned off on your garden.

BTW - rain - glorious rain... bewdiful - and I just planted the peas and carrots yesterday.  Now for that bore and piping for automatic watering.  Once an acreage man always an acreage man... you can take the old bastard out of the paddocks - but you can't take the paddocks out of the old bastard... the yard hand (aged car provided) said he was quoted $2000 for a bore - I said I can buy a 5m post hole digger for $105 and do it myself a bit at a time, put in a piece of poly pipe either 100 or 150mm, drop in a $35 submersible pump that can do 1500 litres or 4500 litres an hour, put in a timer, and off you go.  water table here is only about two feet down in sandy soil .....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #137 - Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 10:30am:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 5:23pm:
Quote:
What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages


Quote:
That's not what your evidence said.


Its literally exactly what the evidence said. It does actually help if you read what we're discussing FD. Then you might avoid tying yourself in knots saying one minute the conclusions they reach is wrong because they leave out "half the story", and then the next minute saying actually the conclusions they reach agree with Friedman.

I've explained to you so many times now what the article concludes, and how, with explicit reference to the actual article. You on the other hand respond with vague hand waving about crap you can't even demonstrate is even in the article.

Quote:
Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?


Where it states, quite explicitly, the restricted set of wages it considers. I believe I quoted the sentence the first time I pointed this out to you.


I'm presuming, because its the only part of the article you quoted back to me, you are referring to this:

Analysis of longitudinal data by Freeman (1984) confirmed the finding of lower wage inequality
in the union sector, even controlling for individual worker effects. In particular, Freeman documented
that wage dispersion tends to fall when workers leave nonunion for union jobs and to rise when they
move in the opposite direction.


No idea what you think are the "restricted set of wages" being "explicitly" referred to here. Feel free to clarify.

In fact, feel free to clarify your entire argument - if you have one. So far the most specific you've been is parrotting a vague Friedman quote and asserting "its economics 101".


No problem.

freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #138 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:57am
 
Thanks FD. Shame there is not a shred of evidence to support it, and shame that the only actual evidence we have seen to date directly contradicts it. And shame you prove yourself completely incapable of demonstrating otherwise.

But not to worry, I'm sure you'll be armed ready with all your usual brainless memes and quips to keep up your delusion that you are somehow refuting what i say.

What you won't be armed with is an actual coherent argument with some actual flesh and supported by actual evidence. I think 10 pages of waffle makes that a pretty safe bet.
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Jest
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #139 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #140 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:50am
 
Then make Unionism compulsory and everyone will be on the same footing!  Hey Presto - solved!

Maybe in America where everything is enterprise based you could argue that unions may have an impact in specific enterprises in getting more or less - but in Australia.  No way.
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« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:00am by Ye Grappler »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #141 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:09am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan



FD: market forces, not unions, will drive higher wages:

freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2020 at 9:25pm:
The strongest would be market forces - the same forces that have given most Australian workers higher salaries than what the unions bargain for.


FD: don't rely on unions to organise a raise:

freediver wrote on Sep 10th, 2020 at 6:22pm:
Unionists delude themselves into thinking they can leave it to the unions to organise a raise rather than persuing their own best interest.


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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Jest
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #142 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:36am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:09am:
Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan



FD: market forces, not unions, will drive higher wages:

freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2020 at 9:25pm:
The strongest would be market forces - the same forces that have given most Australian workers higher salaries than what the unions bargain for.


FD: don't rely on unions to organise a raise:

freediver wrote on Sep 10th, 2020 at 6:22pm:
Unionists delude themselves into thinking they can leave it to the unions to organise a raise rather than persuing their own best interest.




You just know you're dealing with a rabid liar when he/she says that workers can individually negotiate a better deal with their employers rather than negotiating collectively as part of a union. 

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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #143 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 11:44am
 
- or a rabid ideologue
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Jest
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #144 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 12:17pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 11:44am:
- or a rabid ideologue
OK I will give him the benefit of the doubt and scale it down to FD is a rabid ideologue. But I haven't entirely closed the book on liar you understand. Its a watching brief.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #145 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 12:23pm
 
Delusion can be a very effective shield against lying.

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JaSin.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #146 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm
 
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.
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Jest
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #147 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:20pm
 
JaSin. wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
The only 'delusion' present is the Union belief system that every 'worker' is an ignorant Prole in need of their help... at a cost Wink
Yankee Unionists prey upon the Prole Workers.
The Superior Race of pure Australian Workers don't need 'Unions'.
Superior Workers are 'offered' like a Music Contract some pretty good deals by employers. Saw one on Australian Story once.

Unions only work for the crap Workers who need em.
Mostly crap companies hire crap workers.
Its a terrible situation.
I mean - look at how great guns the Shearing Industry is in  Roll Eyes with its Union and the type of workers the Shearing Industry has: Junkies and Alcoholics, etc.

I don't work jobs that need a Union. They're crap jobs.
And if there is crap in the job - it tends to provide great 'bonk' encounters with female staff.  Wink Cheesy


Only crap jobs need a Union rep to take his slice as well out of your pay.


Nobody is saying that a worker is too stupid to protect his own interests. We're saying that workers are stronger and better resourced to protect their interests if they protect themselves collectively. Most employers have human resources sections to advise & negotiate for them or they contact the small business unions to advise them. Its foolish to think you can fight that on your own
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JaSin.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #148 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 5:46pm
 
On the few occassions I have - I've succeeded in some way.
Mostly though, I have never needed to.
I've seen other guys succeed in this way too.
But hey, you gotta be good if you want to stand above the 'pack' (unionists).  Wink
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #149 - Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:02pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:57am:
Thanks FD. Shame there is not a shred of evidence to support it, and shame that the only actual evidence we have seen to date directly contradicts it. And shame you prove yourself completely incapable of demonstrating otherwise.

But not to worry, I'm sure you'll be armed ready with all your usual brainless memes and quips to keep up your delusion that you are somehow refuting what i say.

What you won't be armed with is an actual coherent argument with some actual flesh and supported by actual evidence. I think 10 pages of waffle makes that a pretty safe bet.


The evidence in support of the claim is overwhelming, which is why you will not find a single economist who disagrees with it.

Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2020 at 5:07pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


It is consistent with your quotes.

Speaking about consistency.

You never answered (you ran away in fact) how you supported this theory even though in another thread you started a week or 2 earlier you claimed that it was mythology that Unions increased wages and improved work conditions.

I think you're a shameless charlatan


Can you quote me?

Quote:
You just know you're dealing with a rabid liar when he/she says that workers can individually negotiate a better deal with their employers rather than negotiating collectively as part of a union.


You are a liar.

Quote:
Nobody is saying that a worker is too stupid to protect his own interests.


I believe the unionists here have made this argument several times recently.
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