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Unions increase inequality (Read 18276 times)
freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #120 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:22am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:17am:
You literally have nothing useful to say do you FD?

I wonder why you bother.


Discussing economics with someone who thinks they reject microeconomics, but isn't really sure and doesn't even know what it is?

Have you made up your mind yet?
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« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:34am by freediver »  

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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #121 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:09pm
 
If only you would discuss economics FD - instead of just parroting ideological dogma that is refuted by actual evidence, and justifying it by some pathetic and meaningless appeal to something called "mainstream economics" and "economics 101".

Believe it or not, apart from the vague quote in the OP, you've yet to explain a single thing about your theory or any good reason for why it should be believed.

Have you come up with any actual evidence to support Friedman's view yet?

Have you noticed all the economists who disagree with Friedman that you assured us didn't exist yet?
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #122 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm
 
Quote:
A quick google search makes it pretty clear that it is you rejecting mainstream economics.


Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.

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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #123 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:13pm
 
Thought not.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #124 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm:
Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.



Yes FD, it was said tongue in cheek to make the point that when you claim your meaningless waffle is really "microeconomics 101" - you are clearly speaking out of your arse. Apparently this needs spelling out. Is this proof that you will do absolutely anything - even to the point of pretending you are a blathering idiot - to deflect away from the topic?

Do you agree that based on what actual mainstream economists are saying about unions and their effect on wage inequality - it is you who is rejecting mainstream economics?

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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #125 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:20pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:12pm:
Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.



Yes FD, it was said tongue in cheek to make the point that when you claim your meaningless waffle is really "microeconomics 101" - you are clearly speaking out of your arse. Apparently this needs spelling out. Is this proof that you will do absolutely anything - even to the point of pretending you are a blathering idiot - to deflect away from the topic?

Do you agree that based on what actual mainstream economists are saying about unions and their effect on wage inequality - it is you who is rejecting mainstream economics?



No.

The only example you have produced does not contradict what I and Friedman are saying. Which is why, despite all your blathering, you cannot explain what is wrong with the claim.

And you are right that I do not feel the need to provide evidence for something that can be derived from the most basic and universally accepted economic theory.
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #126 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:25pm
 
Quote:
What do you even mean by "half the consequences" FD?


The example you provided only considers the intended consequences of union action. It excludes all the unintended consequences. That is why I quoted it when pointing this out. It makes it quite clear that it is limiting what it considers.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #127 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:20pm:
The only example you have produced does not contradict what I and Friedman are saying.


What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages does not contradict what you and Friedman are saying?

Are you saying you meant the exact opposite of what you actually said in the OP? Or have you just forgotton what you said? Here I'll help you out - this is the last sentence:

Quote:
Thus, they increase wage inequality


Not much wriggle room there FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 12:25pm:
The example you provided only considers the intended consequences of union action. It excludes all the unintended consequences


This makes zero sense. It considers what actually happened - nothing more nothing less. Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #128 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 5:23pm
 
Quote:
What creative mental gymnastics are required to conclude that the finding that unions create an overall equalising effect on wages


That's not what your evidence said.

Quote:
Could you point out to me where in the quote this alleged selectivity of consequences takes place?


Where it states, quite explicitly, the restricted set of wages it considers. I believe I quoted the sentence the first time I pointed this out to you.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #129 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 6:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:41am:
Which CEOs do you think should have gone to jail because of the GFC?


NY Federal Reserve( Timothy Geithner),Bear Sterns(James Cayne), Lehmann Brothers(Richard Fuld), Goldman Sachs( Lloyd Blankfein) , Morgan Stanley(John Mack), JPMorgan(Jamie Dimon), Bank of America(Ken Lewis), & to keep it diverse - Standard & Poors (Kathleen Corbet).

Along with govt appointed officials tied up with wall street & banking -

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson -

Quote:
During the last year of the Bush administration, Henry "Hank" Paulson had a huge impact on economic policy. He was CEO at Goldman Sachs prior to his stint at the Treasury Department, which started in 2006. One of his famous decisions as secretary was to let Lehman Brothers fail, precipitating a stock market drop of nearly five percent. In his zeal not to repeat that mistake, he helped push the bank bailout through Congress.


Federal Reserve Chair Ben Bernanke - a scumbag who worked for George Bush & was re-appointed by Obama. A major proponent for the deregulation of the banking industry.

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/major-players-2008-financial-crisis-and-wh...

Your whole attitude is generally in the same nature as these scumbags. Roll Eyes
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #130 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 6:42pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:01am:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:31am:
No it doesn't. I have already explained several times how they exclude half of the consequences to draw that conclusion. They even tell you in the quotes you produced that this is what they are doing, but you are oblivious.


What do you even mean by "half the consequences" FD? The only consequence we are interested in is whether unions increase or decrease wage inequality. Like I said, the dodgy logic that underpins the (baseless) claim that it increases inequality is irrelevant. Whatever claim you are trying to make about the article makes no sense at all - it sounds something like "they reach a conclusion that in any case they acknowledge is wrong" or some such nonsense. As for "what they are doing" in that particular quote, its simply to compare the 'within sector' effect on wage inequality  with the 'between sector' effect - and concludes that whatever disequalising effect occurs between sector (that is never elaborated on), is overriden by the stronger equalising effect that occurse within sector. Thus the overall effect - which of course is the only effect that matters here - is equalising.

Whether or not your "economics 101" dismisses or forgets the within sector effect and consider only the between sector effect - I don't know, and frankly it doesn't matter. Since the only relevant consequence here is that *OVERALL*, unions demonstrably create a equalising effect regarding wages. And unless you're going to come out and say that Friedman was really only talking about one aspect union influence, and that he agrees that that aspect is overriden by other union influence - thus creating an overall equalising effect - then yes, it absolutely does demonstrate that Friedman and you are wrong.


Like he only needs 50% of farmers to obey Industrial law .....

it's fine for the other 50% to criminally disobey it.

He is a completely dishonest human being.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #131 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 7:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 8:30pm:
Ah. So I have trained you to be whiny little bitches.


IS that what you're doing ?
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #132 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:13pm
 
Quote:
NY Federal Reserve( Timothy Geithner),Bear Sterns(James Cayne), Lehmann Brothers(Richard Fuld), Goldman Sachs( Lloyd Blankfein) , Morgan Stanley(John Mack), JPMorgan(Jamie Dimon), Bank of America(Ken Lewis), & to keep it diverse - Standard & Poors (Kathleen Corbet).

That's a lot of people you want to kill Gnads. Is that all of them?
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #133 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 6:43am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:13pm:
Quote:
NY Federal Reserve( Timothy Geithner),Bear Sterns(James Cayne), Lehmann Brothers(Richard Fuld), Goldman Sachs( Lloyd Blankfein) , Morgan Stanley(John Mack), JPMorgan(Jamie Dimon), Bank of America(Ken Lewis), & to keep it diverse - Standard & Poors (Kathleen Corbet).

That's a lot of people you want to kill Gnads. Is that all of them?


See there's your dishonesty out in spades ....

I never said "kill" anybody.

The word was "jail".

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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #134 - Oct 15th, 2020 at 7:22pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 15th, 2020 at 8:18am:
It would be a reasonable belief for any fair minded person that they be bought to account.

White collar crime is still a crime.


What crime?
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