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Unions increase inequality (Read 18257 times)
freediver
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Unions increase inequality
Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am
 
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.
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Ajax
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #1 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.

Which now having lived Milton's dream for the last 40 years I can honestly say that its the biggest load of malarkey ever spun to the general population, trickle down economics does not work.

As for unions..............!?............even though there is corruption and what not.

Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions Cheesy Wink Smiley


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Captain Caveman
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #2 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 1:09pm
 
Precisley Ajax.

The gov of Australia is a union. Milton's theory is blown to pieces by that lot hey.... Grin
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #3 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 1:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions
market forces
inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


Impossible under our 'industrial relations' system.... very socialist as it is....

Those market forces are precisely the same as the 'conservatives' constantly harp on when discussing the latest way to rort workers - only these market forces come from the 'other' side of the equation, with its perpetual need to play catch-up with rising costs of living due to piss-poor management at all levels all the way to PM (not least of which abysmal failures is 'privatisation' with its escalating costs to the end user)....

Hard to take when the same market forces you preach as reason to chop your workers and starve their families of hope and even food, are suddenly seen to be a universal and many-sided issue that apply to all ...   Grin  Grin

A good thing this is only a 'thought bubble' from Friedman.... that's about as far as it goes.
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #4 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #5 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 6:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it


how many did you ask?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #6 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.


What crap Freediver. Truth is Milton Friedman was not an economist, he was a propagandist and the thing with the tripe he peddled as economics, most the time the opposite of what he said was true such as tax cuts for the rich will trickle down. But Ajax has already made this point
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John Smith
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #7 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:12pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions



no, FD lives in lala land. He thinks we'd have those conditions even without unions. Funnily enough, when I asked him to name one country with no unions who enjoy the same benefits we do, he ran away ....  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:17pm
 
John Smith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:12pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions



no, FD lives in lala land. He thinks we'd have those conditions even without unions. Funnily enough, when I asked him to name one country with no unions who enjoy the same benefits we do, he ran away ....  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


lala land = Queensland.  Wink
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #9 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 9:06pm
 
Unions in the USA have been largely wiped out (expect for police and unions). Has wage equality increased?
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #10 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:02pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 8:09pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 2:18pm:
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.


No it wasn't. He merely leans more in that direction than most economists, and his biggest disagreements are in macroeconomics.

Yet his analysis here is one of fundamental microeconomics. You will not find a single economist who disagrees with it. Perhaps if I wanted a rational argument I should have left out the messenger.


What crap Freediver. Truth is Milton Friedman was not an economist, he was a propagandist and the thing with the tripe he peddled as economics, most the time the opposite of what he said was true such as tax cuts for the rich will trickle down. But Ajax has already made this point


You are being irrational. He could be some drunk I met down at the pub. He would still be right. I try to give credit to an idea that is not mine, and you all lose the plot. Not a single one of you is capable of addressing the topic, simple as it is.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #11 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:23pm
 
Australians don't want pay rises and benefits from Unions holding up Trade and costing the Australian Economy businesses sweating on the Shipments to and fro - probably costing other people's jobs too.
They want jobs.
The Yankee Unionists call these desperate people for work as 'SCABS', when really these Unionists are just
'GRUBS'
trying to 'lock down' the Economy in their own way. Flying their cheesy Eureka Stockade Flag that was brought about by a bunch of North American Miners in Victoria who didn't like the British System here telling them what to do.

Need to give these Unionists the Shackleton treatment.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Jasin
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #12 - Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:34pm
 
Ajax wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 12:48pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 10:24am:
This is an idea from Milton Friedman. To the extent that unions increase salary within an industry, they reduce employment. The people who cannot get a job in a particular industry because of unions inevitably seek employment in other industries, and thus drive down wages in those industries. As unions tend to be most active in trades that already have higher salaries, they tend to drive down salaries that were already lower. Thus, they increase wage inequality.


RUBBISH.................!.............straight in the bin.

Milton Friedman's philosophy in a nut shell was,

Place everything into the hands of corporations and all else will sort itself out.

Which now having lived Milton's dream for the last 40 years I can honestly say that its the biggest load of malarkey ever spun to the general population, trickle down economics does not work.

As for unions..............!?............even though there is corruption and what not.

Just remember the current conditions you enjoy FD were fought and won by unions, blood was spilt to get an 8 hour a day 40 hour a week and all the other entitlements that come with it.

If there were no unions you would be working 16 hours a day for peanuts with no sickies no holiday pay no nothing, not even weekend ends off.

I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy with those conditions Cheesy Wink Smiley



Sounds like 'slavery'.
Maybe you should say "There may be a market of jobs that offer 16 hour days, no sickies, etc for peanuts. As there is today. But there are many jobs out there that offer the 'best' workers, not necessary the 'union' workers a chance to work just 4 hours a day for 4 times as much as peanuts. There are jobs that offer much much more than what a Union can provide. "
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #13 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:00am
 
Jasin wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:34pm:
Sounds like 'slavery'.
Maybe you should say "There may be a market of jobs that offer 16 hour days, no sickies, etc for peanuts. As there is today. But there are many jobs out there that offer the 'best' workers, not necessary the 'union' workers a chance to work just 4 hours a day for 4 times as much as peanuts. There are jobs that offer much much more than what a Union can provide. "


So - not necessarily the non-union workers?

Why the ideological slant?  Be honest - without union activism in the past your pay rate would be Gina's $10 a day... and it's not only the Union workers who cop 4 hours a day etc ... it's the bloody lot in any given circumstance...

What IS your problem with unions that give you a safety net from predatory management?

Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #14 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 12:09am
 
Jasin wrote on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 11:23pm:
Australians don't want pay rises and benefits from Unions holding up Trade and costing the Australian Economy businesses sweating on the Shipments to and fro - probably costing other people's jobs too.
They want jobs.
The Yankee Unionists call these desperate people for work as 'SCABS', when really these Unionists are just
'GRUBS'
trying to 'lock down' the Economy in their own way. Flying their cheesy Eureka Stockade Flag that was brought about by a bunch of North American Miners in Victoria who didn't like the British System here telling them what to do.

Need to give these Unionists the Shackleton treatment.



Jesus, son - the unions aren't 'holding up trade' - the reality is the entire trade economy on the global market is stuffed - and you well know it...

You amaze me - on the one hand you crow that the unions have no real power and are being steadily chopped of their membership = no real power - yet you somehow seem to want to imagine that union activism to retain wages and conditions is stopping the whole world...

That's like Mothra The Absent Since I Sliced Her.... your rationale doesn't hold up to the light of day, any more than her 'job' getting Indigenous kids to school and monitoring violence in Indigenous communities, while lamenting the disproportionate rate of incarceration as 'racist, while still saying that up to 90% of the problems are not reported and the authorities don't respond in any case...   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes 
(HOW is the rate of incarceration disproportionate when 90% of the offences are not reported and the official response is hardly seen anyway?  That means the incarceration rate is way LOW for the given rate of offending.)


You suffer the same lack of credibility and reason as the 'left' here - although your stance is decidedly 'right' ...

Just goes to show - NONE of the idiotologies has the answers for MY country, least of all the 'rightist' ones..... at least the leftists pretend to be looking out for the common person while seeking to feather their own nests first...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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