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Unions increase inequality (Read 18266 times)
freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #105 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm
 
No-one has asked me for evidence yet. It is common knowledge to the economically literate.

Is there anything in the OP you disagree with?

Quote:
The quote in the OP was directly addressed in the article I quoted, and directly refuted by actual evidence.


As I explained, it does not. Your quotes attempt to create an entirely different argument by excluding half the facts. It does not directly address the argument in the OP in any way. Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author. But you'd have to understand what both arguments actually say to appreciate this.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #106 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 8:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm:
No-one has asked me for evidence yet.



probably because for years you've run away when asked for evidence for anything...
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #107 - Oct 12th, 2020 at 8:30pm
 
Ah. So I have trained you to be whiny little bitches.
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #108 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:13am
 
Do Unions of Employers also increase inequality?  Roll Eyes
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #109 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 11:30am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm:
Is there anything in the OP you disagree with?


Yes, all of it. It is a crude union-bashing propaganda meme that to my knowledge has no basis whatsoever in fact - but is demonstrably refuted by the facts.

Quote:
As I explained,


What exactly have you "explained" FD? Apart from copying Friedman's baseless brain fart and insisting (without any elaboration) how the article is somehow only "half the story"?

Thats not explaining FD, thats parotting useless memes that mean nothing at all.

Oh thats right, you also "explained" how all the economists I cited demonstrating with actual evidence how wrong Friedman is, actually don't exist.

freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2020 at 5:31pm:
Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author.


"Whoever wrote it" says nothing of the kind. You're probably confusing them with one of the cited authors - Freeman, who distinguishes between the 'within sector' and 'between sector' effects. He alludes to, though doesn't specifically explain, a "disequalising" effect between union and non-union workers between sector - which presumably is the same as Friedman's disequalising theory. However he stresses that since the 'within sector' equalising effect is so strong, it overrides any possible 'between sector' disequalising effect - thus making the overall effect of unions on wages equalising. Or in other words, the exact opposite of what Friedman claims.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #110 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 12:48pm
 
Lets see how long it takes him to come back with more of his generalising Union bashing bullshyte.
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #111 - Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:13am:
Do Unions of Employers also increase inequality?  Roll Eyes


No. That would be the one surefire way to achieve your utopia of everyone on the same low wage. Either that, or CEO's in jail.

Quote:
Yes, all of it. It is a crude union-bashing propaganda meme that to my knowledge has no basis whatsoever in fact - but is demonstrably refuted by the facts.


OK, let's start at the beginning. What makes you think I was wrong about Friedman making the claim?

What "facts" refute it? The only ones you have presented merely avoid the topic.

Quote:
What exactly have you "explained" FD?


Not sure why you are still struggling with this. It is microeconomics 101. Here are some of the previous occasions I have explained:

Your quotes attempt to create an entirely different argument by excluding half the facts. It does not directly address the argument in the OP in any way. Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author. But you'd have to understand what both arguments actually say to appreciate this.

Obviously if you exclude the way that unions increase wage inequality, you will end up coming to a conclusion that is the opposite of reality. If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.


Do you really need to copy and paste what we just went over, or can you just read it for yourself? If you are still struggling, go back to the OP.
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Gnads
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #112 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 7:39am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 7:13am:
Do Unions of Employers also increase inequality?  Roll Eyes


No. That would be the one surefire way to achieve your utopia of everyone on the same low wage. Either that, or CEO's in jail.

Quote:
Yes, all of it. It is a crude union-bashing propaganda meme that to my knowledge has no basis whatsoever in fact - but is demonstrably refuted by the facts.


OK, let's start at the beginning. What makes you think I was wrong about Friedman making the claim?

What "facts" refute it? The only ones you have presented merely avoid the topic.

Quote:
What exactly have you "explained" FD?


Not sure why you are still struggling with this. It is microeconomics 101. Here are some of the previous occasions I have explained:

Your quotes attempt to create an entirely different argument by excluding half the facts. It does not directly address the argument in the OP in any way. Whoever wrote it probably agrees with Friedman, and Friedman also says very similar things to your author. But you'd have to understand what both arguments actually say to appreciate this.

Obviously if you exclude the way that unions increase wage inequality, you will end up coming to a conclusion that is the opposite of reality. If you read the OP, you will understand how considering all of the consequences of union activity leads to the inevitable conclusion that unions increase inequality.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.

It starts from the same set of facts. Obviously they reach the wrong conclusion (or at least, a meaningless one) by ignoring half the story, but that's what you get from no-brainers.


Do you really need to copy and paste what we just went over, or can you just read it for yourself? If you are still struggling, go back to the OP.


Grin Your utopia more likely ..... that's why CEOs didn't go to jail in the aftermath of the GFC.

They just used taxpayer/unionists bailout money to pay themselves bonuses ....

and in no time flat it was back to business as usual ....

and the global rorting continues by that club & those who support it.

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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #113 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 9:41am
 
Which CEOs do you think should have gone to jail because of the GFC?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #114 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:04am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
What "facts" refute it? The only ones you have presented merely avoid the topic.


The only way you could possibly think that the article I cited "avoids the topic" is if you didn't read it.

What you and Friedman are concluding is exceedinly simple: that unions increase wage inequality. Thats it. We don't need to worry about the dodgy logic that underpins it, we really only need to worry about if the conclusion is right or wrong. What the article I quoted is concluding amounts to something equally as simple: that unions do not increase wage inequality. Literally the only thing the article does is address that key claim by Friedman and systematically demonstrate that they think the exact opposite happens.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
Not sure why you are still struggling with this. It is microeconomics 101.


Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2020 at 4:26pm:
Here are some of the previous occasions I have explained:


Congratulations FD. You've figured out 3 different ways to say "I'm right and you're wrong - just because" - and then repeated one of them for good measure.

Here's a challenge: can you produce a single real-world example of unions increasing wage inequality? You know, actual evidence, not just mindless hand waving about 'economics 101' and such nonsense.
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freediver
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #115 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:31am
 
Quote:
What you and Friedman are concluding is exceedinly simple: that unions increase wage inequality. Thats it. We don't need to worry about the dodgy logic that underpins it, we really only need to worry about if the conclusion is right or wrong. What the article I quoted is concluding amounts to something equally as simple: that unions do not increase wage inequality. Literally the only thing the article does is address that key claim by Friedman and systematically demonstrate that they think the exact opposite happens.


No it doesn't. I have already explained several times how they exclude half of the consequences to draw that conclusion. They even tell you in the quotes you produced that this is what they are doing, but you are oblivious. Now you are ignoring that and repeating yourself.

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.


This explains a lot. Do you reject mainstream economics in its entirety? And do you reject economic theory out off ignorance, or do you understand what you are rejecting?

If so, what do you replace it with? And why do you use as evidence an article based on the same theory?
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #116 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:01am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2020 at 10:31am:
No it doesn't. I have already explained several times how they exclude half of the consequences to draw that conclusion. They even tell you in the quotes you produced that this is what they are doing, but you are oblivious.


What do you even mean by "half the consequences" FD? The only consequence we are interested in is whether unions increase or decrease wage inequality. Like I said, the dodgy logic that underpins the (baseless) claim that it increases inequality is irrelevant. Whatever claim you are trying to make about the article makes no sense at all - it sounds something like "they reach a conclusion that in any case they acknowledge is wrong" or some such nonsense. As for "what they are doing" in that particular quote, its simply to compare the 'within sector' effect on wage inequality  with the 'between sector' effect - and concludes that whatever disequalising effect occurs between sector (that is never elaborated on), is overriden by the stronger equalising effect that occurse within sector. Thus the overall effect - which of course is the only effect that matters here - is equalising.

Whether or not your "economics 101" dismisses or forgets the within sector effect and consider only the between sector effect - I don't know, and frankly it doesn't matter. Since the only relevant consequence here is that *OVERALL*, unions demonstrably create a equalising effect regarding wages. And unless you're going to come out and say that Friedman was really only talking about one aspect union influence, and that he agrees that that aspect is overriden by other union influence - thus creating an overall equalising effect - then yes, it absolutely does demonstrate that Friedman and you are wrong.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #117 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:10am
 
Quote:
Do you reject mainstream economics in its entirety?


A quick google search makes it pretty clear that it is you rejecting mainstream economics. Couldn't find anyone who agrees with you and Friedman since the 1960s.

Oh look here, here's four more economists that FD assured us do not exist:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/business/labor-unions-income-inequality.html

Quote:
The new insights come from a working paper, “Unions and Inequality Over the Twentieth Century: New Evidence from Survey Data,” by four economists: Henry Farber, Daniel Herbst and Ilyana Kuziemko of Princeton, and Suresh Naidu of Columbia. They establish that unions have constrained income inequality far beyond their own membership ranks.


No doubt FD will be along to "explain"* to us how these authors are really saying "this is the conclusion we reach, but we know its totally wrong"


* in FD speak, 'explain' means saying "because I said so".
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #118 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:12am
 
Quote:
A quick google search makes it pretty clear that it is you rejecting mainstream economics.


Were you lying when you said this?

Quote:
Microeconomics 101 is apparently microeconomic theory with no basis in reality and which requires no evidence. Indeed I am struggling with that FD.
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Re: Unions increase inequality
Reply #119 - Oct 14th, 2020 at 11:17am
 
You literally have nothing useful to say do you FD?

I wonder why you bother.
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