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the mindless compulsion to increase super (Read 16724 times)
freediver
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the mindless compulsion to increase super
Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:04am
 
Where does it come from?

There is a strong, vocal, unquestioning (and hopefully minority) view that increasing super is "necessary". The people pushing this view can never explain why it is necessary.

Here are some recent examples:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1600462845

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1597456849/5#5

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1593668457/44#44

Meanwhile, the average person is losing thousands of dollars from their savings every year just to fill out the required government paperwork. And that is before they pay for the conventional cost of managing the investment. At the same time, the government is complaining that the country cannot afford the tax breaks people get through their super.

I have a theory that this vocal minority has deluded itself into thinking that superannuation does not come out of their salary. This is because rather than being presented the same way as a tax, super is presented as being 'on top of' their base salary. So people think it is a freebie that comes out of the company profits rather than their own salary.

The company is not going to tell employees that their salary is being reduced, or they are missing out on raises, to pay for super. That would make them unpopular. Most of the well-written propaganda of course comes from the super industry itself - the people being paid billions of dollars a year to complete the government paperwork, and billions more to manage the funds. They are obviously rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the government forcing everyone to hand their money over to them. They are already hoovering up about 10% of GDP.

There is also a strong link with the unions, who appear to view super as merely another tool in salary negotiations, and to hell with the consequences for everyone else - and for their own members when the union cannot negotiate a real salary increase because employers are sending their salary to superannuation companies. Unions are probably at the pointy end of the mindless, irrational compulsion, because being mindless and irrational is their core business.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #1 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:11am
 
Its just another way of grabbing peoples money investing it and paying the people peanuts along the way.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #2 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:16am
 
Quote:
Where does it come from?

There is a strong, vocal, unquestioning (and hopefully minority) view that increasing super is "necessary". The people pushing this view can never explain why it is necessary.


Plan B = increase the pension age or cutting the pension.

This is the reason it was introduced and the result of the Liberals blocking increases has been to increase the pension age and a second attempt to increase it more.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #3 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:17am
 
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.

Also I believe there is justification in making it compulsory to pay a minimum amount into the fund so that people are not a burden on the community in later life AND withdrawing your money B4 retirement shouldn't be permitted.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #4 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am
 
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #5 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #6 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:34am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 


If they don't take commissions, who pays them?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #7 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:36am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 

Every Australian should be on the Govt run Superannuation scheme that I'm on. It would make Australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #8 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:38am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:36am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 

Every Australian should be on the Govt run Superannuation scheme that I'm on. It would make Australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement


Can you prove that it would make everyone richer?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #9 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:40am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:34am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 


If they don't take commissions, who pays them?


The fund takes out its running costs. They send me a report every few months.  They're good experienced investors who invest on sound principles.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #10 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:43am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:40am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:34am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 


If they don't take commissions, who pays them?


The fund takes out its running costs. They send me a report every few months.  They're good experienced investors who invest on sound principles.


So you are speaking largely from ignorance and propaganda?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #11 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:44am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:36am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 

Every Australian should be on the Govt run Superannuation scheme that I'm on. It would make Australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement


Can you prove that it would make everyone richer?

I said it would make australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement. The last part is based on my experience about me, the first part is my belief based on some research I did many years ago on soverign wealth funds like Norway's sovereign wealth fund. Though it gets an added boost from its vast oil reserves.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #12 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:48am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:44am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:36am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 

Every Australian should be on the Govt run Superannuation scheme that I'm on. It would make Australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement


Can you prove that it would make everyone richer?

I said it would make australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement. The last part is based on my experience about me, the first part is my belief based on some research I did many years ago on soverign wealth funds like Norway's sovereign wealth fund. Though it gets an added boost from its vast oil reserves.   


So based on your experience about you and something that happened in Norway, you can confidently predict that the government-run super fund that you are on would make the whole country richer?

Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #13 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:48am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:43am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:40am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:34am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 


If they don't take commissions, who pays them?


The fund takes out its running costs. They send me a report every few months.  They're good experienced investors who invest on sound principles.


So you are speaking largely from ignorance and propaganda?


No I leave speaking from ignorance and propaganda to you. You excel at that, I can't compete.  I live on my super fund. I have no added investments because I dont need them. I enjoy a good comfortable lifestyle and B4 Covid I used to travel regularly overseas and hope to again soon.   
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #14 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:53am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:48am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:44am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:36am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 

Every Australian should be on the Govt run Superannuation scheme that I'm on. It would make Australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement


Can you prove that it would make everyone richer?

I said it would make australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement. The last part is based on my experience about me, the first part is my belief based on some research I did many years ago on soverign wealth funds like Norway's sovereign wealth fund. Though it gets an added boost from its vast oil reserves.   


So based on your experience about you and something that happened in Norway, you can confidently predict that the government-run super fund that you are on would make the whole country richer?

Roll Eyes


Yes based on my experiance. Ohh and my brother in laws experience who is in the private fund the Bank he worked for runs. He rings me regularly to weep about how he wishes he was in my fund. I agree with him. He worked hard. he deserves to have the same benefits as me but because he's in a private fund, set up primarily to make the bank wealthier he will never do as well as my fund.  Its obvious really. Only propagandists would pretend otherwise.

Ohh and yes, my many former work colleagues who live an equally comfortable retirement and often rejoice with me that they're in our Govt run Super fund and not a parasitic predatory super fund. Believe me that's the last thing you want to have to deal with in your retirement.  Your retirement isn't about getting old. Its about that next stage in your life, making new discoveries about life and you cant do that if you dont have enough to live on and having to deal with a private for profit Super fund looking for yet another way to fleece you. That's just miserable and guaranteed to ruin your retirement.
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« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am by Jest »  

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #15 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am
 
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #16 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:08am
 
My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #17 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #18 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:59am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 
Bulldust. I was in 2 schemes, state govt GESB and Australian Super. Aust Super outperformed the GESB scheme.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #19 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #20 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:55pm
 
rhino wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:59am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 
Bulldust. I was in 2 schemes, state govt GESB and Australian Super. Aust Super outperformed the GESB scheme.


The truth is Govt super funds have gone through quite a few downgrades over the years largely because of pressure from private insurance funds that could not compete with a properly run not for profit Superannuation scheme designed to serve the best interests of its members rather than serve the profit aims of the private sector.  For instance I don't believe there are any private super funds that provide a defined benefit anymore. They used to but they dont now because its not profitable enough for them even though its the best super for their members. And of course now private funds will tell you how they have out performed this fund or that fund but do those profits find their way to the members. I personally doubt it. But Ive never had that problem with my Govt run Super fund designed in the 70s for members interests not private profit interests.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #21 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now.  No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #22 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:01pm
 
The only way super is going to work is in a kind of 'socialist' style, without the added costs for those running the show, and under the One Roof Grappler System, in which everyone has an individual account into which a minimum is deposited every fortnight (etc) without argument or question, with the government making up the shortfall for those unemployed and on disability who cannot work.

You can save as much as you want for retirement, but remember that taxation component even in retirement with the first amount derived from the basic free of tax... it's not really a bad deal, though the ones who've benefited mightily from 'superannuation', including the highly preferential schemes to suit them alone, will scream.

So - you say - they spend their money on assets!  Well - yes - that stimulates the economy.... builders and pool installers and Windbag salespeople need to make a living so they can spend into the economy ...... and tax 'em on overseas purchases and trips etc...

There would be a ceiling on deposits, and any individual can lodge more, but must accept that over the ceiling will incur income taxation.  Kind of like a pension scheme, but without the government and their chosen mates having their grubby hands all over it.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #23 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:05pm
 
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:08am:
My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.


So you voluntarily joined a Union? Stop whining then.... as for Super, it comes out before you get your pay... argue the way it's run - not the fact that it is... and everyone pays taxes every day.

Even your car standing in the driveway is taxed since you pay an annual fee to just have it sitting there - part of 'standing costs'.  That's why you need to become a business and get such things as tax deductions.... been there - done that.... had the Jag and the Daimler in the drive and all repairs and maintenance etc came off tax - can't choose women, though.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #24 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:06pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now.  No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.


Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:05pm:
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:08am:
My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.


So you voluntarily joined a Union? Stop whining then....


Perhaps he is in one of those workplaces where people who don't join the union have unfortunate accidents.

The union comes to the rescue of course.

Quote:
And of course now private funds will tell you how they have out performed this fund or that fund but do those profits find their way to the members. I personally doubt it.


Of course it does. All fund performances - government and private - are quoted in terms of the end result for the customer. I do not recall ever seeing performance quoted prior to fees etc being taken out. It's the same with regular managed funds.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #25 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now.  No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.


Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?


Yes undoubtedly, if I had the time and money I would love to finance an ad campaign with experts explaining why there is no doubt in the world that they can enjoy a financially comfortable retirement if the private sector is entirely removed from superannuation and their superannuation fund is managed by the Govt on the same terms as my current superannuation fund. And Ill happily tell them about my experience where I don't have to worry from day to day about what the stock market gamblers have done to my nest egg and what new fees and commissions the profiteers have decided to fleece me with today. I can tell them that the reason I dont have to worry about my fund is because its been designed to benefit me in my retirement and not to be a cash cow for those who manage it. I can also tell them that another important reason why I do so well out of it (apart from not being made to pay all those bogus commissions and fees) is because of what they call economy of scale. The more people who are in the fund the cheaper they can make the service to me. ATM there are so many Super funds, each with their own administrative units and executive managers to skim as much off the top that they can get away with so that while they holiday on a private yacht in Debrovnik each year I can look forward in 10 yrs time to my turn in that time share at that quaint little camp site on the Murray river in Albury. They give each of your kids a free floaty to use while at the park in their 3x3 metre swimming pool especially designed for the kiddies    
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #26 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:27pm
 
Well I'm going to change to a Government Super.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #27 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:19pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now.  No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.


Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?


Yes undoubtedly, if I had the time and money I would love to finance an ad campaign with experts explaining why there is no doubt in the world that they can enjoy a financially comfortable retirement if the private sector is entirely removed from superannuation and their superannuation fund is managed by the Govt on the same terms as my current superannuation fund. And Ill happily tell them about my experience where I don't have to worry from day to day about what the stock market gamblers have done to my nest egg and what new fees and commissions the profiteers have decided to fleece me with today. I can tell them that the reason I dont have to worry about my fund is because its been designed to benefit me in my retirement and not to be a cash cow for those who manage it. I can also tell them that another important reason why I do so well out of it (apart from not being made to pay all those bogus commissions and fees) is because of what they call economy of scale. The more people who are in the fund the cheaper they can make the service to me. ATM there are so many Super funds, each with their own administrative units and executive managers to skim as much off the top that they can get away with so that while they holiday on a private yacht in Debrovnik each year I can look forward in 10 yrs time to my turn in that time share at that quaint little camp site on the Murray river in Albury. They give each of your kids a free floaty to use while at the park in their 3x3 metre swimming pool especially designed for the kiddies    


Ah. So you would pay someone else to prove it, using taxpayers money, with great fanfare and great expense.

But you couldn't simply present the relevant facts yourself?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #28 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:31pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:55pm:
rhino wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:59am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 
Bulldust. I was in 2 schemes, state govt GESB and Australian Super. Aust Super outperformed the GESB scheme.


The truth is Govt super funds have gone through quite a few downgrades over the years largely because of pressure from private insurance funds that could not compete with a properly run not for profit Superannuation scheme designed to serve the best interests of its members rather than serve the profit aims of the private sector.  For instance I don't believe there are any private super funds that provide a defined benefit anymore. They used to but they dont now because its not profitable enough for them even though its the best super for their members. And of course now private funds will tell you how they have out performed this fund or that fund but do those profits find their way to the members. I personally doubt it. But Ive never had that problem with my Govt run Super fund designed in the 70s for members interests not private profit interests.
If only we could go back in time and enroll in this govt super funds, alas we cant. As an example the WA Govt Gold state super was a ripper of a fund, they put in $3 for every 1 you did. But that stopped in 1994. Governments dont so these funds anymore and they arent likely to.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #29 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:33pm
 
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:27pm:
Well I'm going to change to a Government Super.
you will need a government job first, you can stand in the queue behind the 3 million Indian immigrants doing the same.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #30 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:29pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:19pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now.  No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.


Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?


Yes undoubtedly, if I had the time and money I would love to finance an ad campaign with experts explaining why there is no doubt in the world that they can enjoy a financially comfortable retirement if the private sector is entirely removed from superannuation and their superannuation fund is managed by the Govt on the same terms as my current superannuation fund. And Ill happily tell them about my experience where I don't have to worry from day to day about what the stock market gamblers have done to my nest egg and what new fees and commissions the profiteers have decided to fleece me with today. I can tell them that the reason I dont have to worry about my fund is because its been designed to benefit me in my retirement and not to be a cash cow for those who manage it. I can also tell them that another important reason why I do so well out of it (apart from not being made to pay all those bogus commissions and fees) is because of what they call economy of scale. The more people who are in the fund the cheaper they can make the service to me. ATM there are so many Super funds, each with their own administrative units and executive managers to skim as much off the top that they can get away with so that while they holiday on a private yacht in Debrovnik each year I can look forward in 10 yrs time to my turn in that time share at that quaint little camp site on the Murray river in Albury. They give each of your kids a free floaty to use while at the park in their 3x3 metre swimming pool especially designed for the kiddies    


Ah. So you would pay someone else to prove it, using taxpayers money, with great fanfare and great expense.

But you couldn't simply present the relevant facts yourself?

Yes if i had the money I would pay experts to spread the message because they will do it much better than me & I think the message is that important. All Australians have a right to be on the same Super fund as I am because all Australians work hard and deserve it. Instead Big money has got to out governments to turn super into something that enriches the finance sector instead of providing a happy comfortable retirements to its people.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #31 - Sep 20th, 2020 at 5:07pm
 
Would this be like a religious message? Or would it involve some facts about the relative merits of your strategy?

Would it actually be a "right", or would you look to force people to do it your way?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #32 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 10:35am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Where does it come from?

There is a strong, vocal, unquestioning (and hopefully minority) view that increasing super is "necessary". The people pushing this view can never explain why it is necessary.

Here are some recent examples:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1600462845

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1597456849/5#5

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1593668457/44#44

Meanwhile, the average person is losing thousands of dollars from their savings every year just to fill out the required government paperwork. And that is before they pay for the conventional cost of managing the investment. At the same time, the government is complaining that the country cannot afford the tax breaks people get through their super.

I have a theory that this vocal minority has deluded itself into thinking that superannuation does not come out of their salary. This is because rather than being presented the same way as a tax, super is presented as being 'on top of' their base salary. So people think it is a freebie that comes out of the company profits rather than their own salary.

The company is not going to tell employees that their salary is being reduced, or they are missing out on raises, to pay for super. That would make them unpopular. Most of the well-written propaganda of course comes from the super industry itself - the people being paid billions of dollars a year to complete the government paperwork, and billions more to manage the funds. They are obviously rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the government forcing everyone to hand their money over to them. They are already hoovering up about 10% of GDP.

There is also a strong link with the unions, who appear to view super as merely another tool in salary negotiations, and to hell with the consequences for everyone else - and for their own members when the union cannot negotiate a real salary increase because employers are sending their salary to superannuation companies. Unions are probably at the pointy end of the mindless, irrational compulsion, because being mindless and irrational is their core business.



So you be an advocate for people not to have superannuation in their retirement?

And an advocate for them to be on the aged pension?

And for that pension to be increased to a better level?

Funny that it's all the Politicians that want to get their hands on superannuation funds, especially that tied up in Industry funds ......

and hand it over to their mates in the private sector ...... aka Banks.  Roll Eyes

It pains them .... & obviously people like you, that people can live a good life in their retirement.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #33 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 10:43am
 
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:08am:
My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.


Union rep takes a slice? Thought you weren't in a Union?

You sure bash them enough ... just like Freediver.

There's nothing wrong with Superannuation.

It will be like a compulsory saving for when you finish & if you become unable to work -they have Accident & Illness insurance incorporated in the policy.

You won't get a pension anyways .... it's 67 now....& your Union bashing Tory mates want to push that out to 70 yrs old.

It will be just like old Eskimo culture ......

when you get too old & infirm

they throw you out onto the ice for the Polar Bears.  Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #34 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 10:44am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:59pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 12:05pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:13am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:05am:
Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.


Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now.  No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.


Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 3:05pm:
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 11:08am:
My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.


So you voluntarily joined a Union? Stop whining then....


Perhaps he is in one of those workplaces where people who don't join the union have unfortunate accidents.

The union comes to the rescue of course.

Quote:
And of course now private funds will tell you how they have out performed this fund or that fund but do those profits find their way to the members. I personally doubt it.


Of course it does. All fund performances - government and private - are quoted in terms of the end result for the customer. I do not recall ever seeing performance quoted prior to fees etc being taken out. It's the same with regular managed funds.


Idiot  Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #35 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 10:48am
 
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:27pm:
Well I'm going to change to a Government Super.


Anyone can join QSuper now......

you can rollover your Super into any fund you want to now.

Most Industry Superannuation Funds are doing well ......

that's why the private sector wants them.

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #36 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 10:50am
 
rhino wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:33pm:
Jasin wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 4:27pm:
Well I'm going to change to a Government Super.
you will need a government job first, you can stand in the queue behind the 3 million Indian immigrants doing the same.


Incorrect

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #37 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 9:11am
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 21st, 2020 at 10:35am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:04am:
Where does it come from?

There is a strong, vocal, unquestioning (and hopefully minority) view that increasing super is "necessary". The people pushing this view can never explain why it is necessary.

Here are some recent examples:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1600462845

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1597456849/5#5

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1593668457/44#44

Meanwhile, the average person is losing thousands of dollars from their savings every year just to fill out the required government paperwork. And that is before they pay for the conventional cost of managing the investment. At the same time, the government is complaining that the country cannot afford the tax breaks people get through their super.

I have a theory that this vocal minority has deluded itself into thinking that superannuation does not come out of their salary. This is because rather than being presented the same way as a tax, super is presented as being 'on top of' their base salary. So people think it is a freebie that comes out of the company profits rather than their own salary.

The company is not going to tell employees that their salary is being reduced, or they are missing out on raises, to pay for super. That would make them unpopular. Most of the well-written propaganda of course comes from the super industry itself - the people being paid billions of dollars a year to complete the government paperwork, and billions more to manage the funds. They are obviously rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the government forcing everyone to hand their money over to them. They are already hoovering up about 10% of GDP.

There is also a strong link with the unions, who appear to view super as merely another tool in salary negotiations, and to hell with the consequences for everyone else - and for their own members when the union cannot negotiate a real salary increase because employers are sending their salary to superannuation companies. Unions are probably at the pointy end of the mindless, irrational compulsion, because being mindless and irrational is their core business.



So you be an advocate for people not to have superannuation in their retirement?


Wrong. I think people should have far more super. I just think the government should not be forcing people to give thousands of dollars out of their savings every year to this industry that is now demanding even more.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #38 - Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:26am
 
I have been a member of government superannuation funds since I was 16, long before it became fashionable or compulsory for most of the population.  When the opportunity came I paid in more than the minimum, not enough to leave me short each fortnight, but enough to make a bit of difference over the years. 

Eventually I was able to retire early and live on my superannuation income. I'm not rich by any means, but I have enough for my needs and for most things I could reasonably want. 

So yes, I am a fan of superannuation, but not the private for profit funds who are ripping off their members outrageously.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #39 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 7:43am
 
Belgarion wrote on Oct 3rd, 2020 at 11:26am:
I have been a member of government superannuation funds since I was 16, long before it became fashionable or compulsory for most of the population.  When the opportunity came I paid in more than the minimum, not enough to leave me short each fortnight, but enough to make a bit of difference over the years. 

Eventually I was able to retire early and live on my superannuation income. I'm not rich by any means, but I have enough for my needs and for most things I could reasonably want. 

So yes, I am a fan of superannuation, but not the private for profit funds who are ripping off their members outrageously.


Good for you. (I mean that, genuinely).

For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.

Oh, and some (many?) Industry Funds also do what is referred to as "SMSF-Lite", where you can allocate a portion of the funds they hold for you, and invest it how you please (obviously with certain limits...you can't, for example, invest in certain "cash crops"...)

Plenty of people who are ideologically opposed to Super generally, and Industry Funds specifically, it would seem. Few of them are seemingly able to argue a cogent case for a "better" solution.

All too easy to say "This is sh*t", without actually articulating how they would do it better...


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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #40 - Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm
 
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #41 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:13am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm:
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.


And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #42 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:40am
 
In the Early 90s the Federal Govt decided to overhaul the Public Service Super scheme to more closely mimic the private enterprise model (designed to provide a cash cow for the managers of the Super Funds rather than for the benefit of its retiree members). So the Govt put on all these "information sessions" to extol the virtues of the new scheme and to convince us to sign over to it. Unfortunately a few were sucked in (but not a lot) and the one person I know who did has often told me how much he regrets it. 

But this is the interesting part. Most of the BS rhetoric I remember them using to convince us to sign over is the same BS rhetoric FD uses here. And the one that most rails with me is the "you get a free choice" as if that's worth sh*t. Yeah right, you get the free choice to shoot yourself in the foot. Knock yourself out.

There are many things that private enterprise has no business being involved in because its drive for self enrichment defeats the purpose and Superannuation is one of them, health another, education another, power and electricity and water and roads and communications are others. Because of economies of scale, these things are done more cheaply and efficiently and can be managed to operate more honestly if they are in public hands. Its as obvious as the noses on our faces.             
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #43 - Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:12pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm:
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.


And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.


Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #44 - Oct 9th, 2020 at 8:33am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm:
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.


And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.


Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?


No...... you are.

I'm saying that the LNP govt & the private sector shouldn't be allowed to get their hands on a monopoly of superannuation business & close down Industry super funds.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #45 - Oct 9th, 2020 at 7:21pm
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 9th, 2020 at 8:33am:
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm:
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.


And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.


Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?


No...... you are.

I'm saying that the LNP govt & the private sector shouldn't be allowed to get their hands on a monopoly of superannuation business & close down Industry super funds.


How am I doing that? I would prefer people had more choice. You would prefer to have their money.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #46 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 6:52am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2020 at 7:21pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 9th, 2020 at 8:33am:
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm:
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.


And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.


Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?


No...... you are.

I'm saying that the LNP govt & the private sector shouldn't be allowed to get their hands on a monopoly of superannuation business & close down Industry super funds.


How am I doing that? I would prefer people had more choice. You would prefer to have their money.


You're talking through your southern gate again  Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #47 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:07am
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 9th, 2020 at 8:33am:
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 6:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:13am:
freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 8:05pm:
Quote:
For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.


SMSF's are not free either.


And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.


Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?


No...... you are.


Can you quote me Gnads?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #48 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:16am
 
That's because the people pushing for a Super Increase are actually working for the Super Industry behind closed doors.
Like those who get paid to make great reviews online for businesses and hotels even though they are shotty as anything.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #49 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:26am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:48am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:44am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:36am:
Jest wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:33am:
freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2020 at 10:27am:
Quote:
Govt run Superannuation schemes are the best thing ever. All superannuation schemes should be run the same way, by Govt and without private enterprise involvement.


Do you think government bureaucrats will do a better job of investing your savings than private fund managers?


Absolutely!! I know from experience. Plus they don't take Commissions, charge fees for everything including scratching their bum and take big risks because its more profitable for them or they're helping out a mate. 

Every Australian should be on the Govt run Superannuation scheme that I'm on. It would make Australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement


Can you prove that it would make everyone richer?

I said it would make australia much richer and it would give all Australians a comfortable retirement. The last part is based on my experience about me, the first part is my belief based on some research I did many years ago on soverign wealth funds like Norway's sovereign wealth fund. Though it gets an added boost from its vast oil reserves.   


So based on your experience about you and something that happened in Norway, you can confidently predict that the government-run super fund that you are on would make the whole country richer?

Roll Eyes


The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #50 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am
 
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #51 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 11:37am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 7th, 2020 at 9:40am:
In the Early 90s the Federal Govt decided to overhaul the Public Service Super scheme to more closely mimic the private enterprise model (designed to provide a cash cow for the managers of the Super Funds rather than for the benefit of its retiree members). So the Govt put on all these "information sessions" to extol the virtues of the new scheme and to convince us to sign over to it. Unfortunately a few were sucked in (but not a lot) and the one person I know who did has often told me how much he regrets it. 

But this is the interesting part. Most of the BS rhetoric I remember them using to convince us to sign over is the same BS rhetoric FD uses here. And the one that most rails with me is the "you get a free choice" as if that's worth sh*t. Yeah right, you get the free choice to shoot yourself in the foot. Knock yourself out.

There are many things that private enterprise has no business being involved in because its drive for self enrichment defeats the purpose and Superannuation is one of them, health another, education another, power and electricity and water and roads and communications are others. Because of economies of scale, these things are done more cheaply and efficiently and can be managed to operate more honestly if they are in public hands. Its as obvious as the noses on our faces.             





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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #52 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 11:48am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.


In the decades that these funds have been openly making this claim not once had a private fund challenged it no politician has ever challenged the claim. NOBODY.

Remember all the industry supper adds where Mary and Sue put the same amount into supper and at the end Mary had 150K more than Sue ? These adds ran for a decade and Sue's pr1vate super provider has never once tried to say that it isn't true based on the facts ?

There has never been the reciprocal of a private super supplier claiming to out perform industry super ?

The logical answer is easy to understand.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #53 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 2:39pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 11:48am:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.


In the decades that these funds have been openly making this claim not once had a private fund challenged it no politician has ever challenged the claim. NOBODY.

Remember all the industry supper adds where Mary and Sue put the same amount into supper and at the end Mary had 150K more than Sue ? These adds ran for a decade and Sue's pr1vate super provider has never once tried to say that it isn't true based on the facts ?

There has never been the reciprocal of a private super supplier claiming to out perform industry super ?

The logical answer is easy to understand.


You don't even realise how easy it is to verify these claims do you? If you cannot back up your own words, if you don't even know how to, they are worthless.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #54 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:00pm
 
I just decreased my Super big time with the Virus withdrawals.

Oh I say!
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #55 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:01pm
 
I will not live long to retire anyway.

This was a wise investment.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #56 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.



"Anything special"...compared to what, exactly?

If you're talking Industry versus Retail, then see the below link. (Figures are APRAs so please, no claims of bias).

https://www.superguide.com.au/comparing-super-funds/industry-funds-retail-funds-...

If you're not talking Industry versus Retail, what exactly are you talking about?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #57 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 6:44pm
 
Mix_Master wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:28pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.



"Anything special"...compared to what, exactly?

If you're talking Industry versus Retail, then see the below link. (Figures are APRAs so please, no claims of bias).

https://www.superguide.com.au/comparing-super-funds/industry-funds-retail-funds-...

If you're not talking Industry versus Retail, what exactly are you talking about?


What exactly do you think that proves?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #58 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 7:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Mix_Master wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:28pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.



"Anything special"...compared to what, exactly?

If you're talking Industry versus Retail, then see the below link. (Figures are APRAs so please, no claims of bias).

https://www.superguide.com.au/comparing-super-funds/industry-funds-retail-funds-...

If you're not talking Industry versus Retail, what exactly are you talking about?


What exactly do you think that proves?


That you may not be qualified to research in this area.

It clearly demonstrates that Industry funds do indeed out perform retail funds just as it does every year.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #59 - Oct 10th, 2020 at 7:30pm
 
It clearly demonstrates that Industry funds do indeed out perform retail funds just as it does every year.

I hate to break it to you, but 0.6% per anum is not that significant when it comes to the differences in fund performance.

Also, you cannot invest in an "average fund".
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #60 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 7:43am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Mix_Master wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:28pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.



"Anything special"...compared to what, exactly?

If you're talking Industry versus Retail, then see the below link. (Figures are APRAs so please, no claims of bias).

https://www.superguide.com.au/comparing-super-funds/industry-funds-retail-funds-...

If you're not talking Industry versus Retail, what exactly are you talking about?


What exactly do you think that proves?


I asked you a question, and you answer by asking me a question?

No worries.

We all have our opinions. And as my wife likes to say, that's all they are.

Me?

I'm happy that our money is invested in Industry Funds.

But I'm happier still that, despite all the ideological carping about "unions" and all the rest of it, those Funds are here to stay.

It would be a very "courageous" Government indeed which tried to wind them down, give the way that they've outperformed pretty much everything else over a long period of time.

I'm happier still that it burns the LNP ideologues, who'd far rather people's money be invested in retail funds, where they can pay "fees for no service".

They can piss right off.

On the subject of SGC increases, this debate has been prosecuted many times.

Based on a variety of factors - genuine COLA over time being just one - there is a very good case to increase the SGC over time, to ensure that the majority of people will be able to afford a decent standard of living in retirement, without relying on (and being an impost on) an increasingly difficult-to-qualify-for pension.

The counter arguments are espoused by ideologues...many of whom are also responsible for the ever-tightening eligibility for that self-same pension.

We know where their priorities are. (Hint: They have nothing to do with workers' standard of living in retirement, and all to do with keeping them as "productive economic units" for as long as possible).

And with that said, I am done.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #61 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 8:12am
 
So for you it is more about ideology than return on investment? Is that why you show so little interest in actual performance?

Would you advise others to let blind ideology look after their retirement savings?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #62 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 8:49am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 7:30pm:
It clearly demonstrates that Industry funds do indeed out perform retail funds just as it does every year.

I hate to break it to you, but 0.6% per anum is not that significant when it comes to the differences in fund performance.

Also, you cannot invest in an "average fund".


So you argue that the best performing losers can beat the worst performing winners in this. You may be correct in some one off instances but on average you loose. Not a good argument, you would be better off to point out that a few commercial funds are now offering cheaper products with more options which can somewhat bridge the gap.

The problem you have is in the competitive advantage where at the base level most the industry super is returning profit to members and the retail super is returning profits to investors.

That is correct it is a structural advantage that means the for profit funds have to make greater profits and take greater risk just to break even. The fact is that they almost never achieve this outcome.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #63 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 9:22am
 
Quote:
So you argue that the best performing losers can beat the worst performing winners in this.


No. I am saying that everyone is a loser, because the difference which you think is so significant is less than what most people lose to compliance costs every year. On average, industry superfunds underperform private managed direct investment funds, probably for the same reason behind the 0.6% difference you carry on about.

There are a 100 other ways you could divide the available options up into winners and losers. None of them are rational, because only a moron would seek to invest in either an average industry fund or an average private fund.

But if we must adopt your idiotic dichotomy, it is like this - the best performing private funds outperform every single industry super fund in the market, by a wide margin. The difference in the average is small compared to the range of performance available.

You are focusing on one little detail, while ignoring actual performance. As the saying goes, you are being penny wise, pound foolish.

The difference in average performance is likely largely attributable to the difference in average fees. The same thing goes with private funds. You could divide them up into the group that has, on average, 0.6% less fees than the rest, and you would get the same dichotomy, only this time it would give you an actual insight into what is going on, and the beginnings of a decision on where to actually put your money, seeing as "the average super fund" is not an option.

This is why, despite your ideological drivel, industry super funds underpeform privately managed direct investment funds on average. It is because they are super funds. No amount of cost cutting can make up for the colossal waste inherent in the mandatory superannuation schemes.

You have been deceived by the propaganda from the people who are eating away at your retirement savings every year.

No-one can invest in "the average industry super fund". You have to choose an actual fund, and when you look at the options available, industry super funds are a long way down the list. And when you look at the options that are not available because the government is compelling you to waste your money, you realise you are being ripped off. Basing your decision on the average performance spread over thousands of other funds while ignoring the elephant in the room is just stupid.
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« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2020 at 9:32am by freediver »  

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #64 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 9:59am
 
Mix_Master wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 7:43am:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Mix_Master wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 3:28pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2020 at 8:28am:
Quote:
The fact is that these super funds have outperformed the private schemes every year for many decades. No guarantee that goes into the future but when you consider that their advantageous dynamics is the reason and they won't change it is very likely to continue.


So why don't they prove it? The research I have done does not show them as anything special.



"Anything special"...compared to what, exactly?

If you're talking Industry versus Retail, then see the below link. (Figures are APRAs so please, no claims of bias).

https://www.superguide.com.au/comparing-super-funds/industry-funds-retail-funds-...

If you're not talking Industry versus Retail, what exactly are you talking about?


What exactly do you think that proves?


I asked you a question, and you answer by asking me a question?

No worries.

We all have our opinions. And as my wife likes to say, that's all they are.

Me?

I'm happy that our money is invested in Industry Funds.

But I'm happier still that, despite all the ideological carping about "unions" and all the rest of it, those Funds are here to stay.

It would be a very "courageous" Government indeed which tried to wind them down, give the way that they've outperformed pretty much everything else over a long period of time.

I'm happier still that it burns the LNP ideologues, who'd far rather people's money be invested in retail funds, where they can pay "fees for no service".

They can piss right off.

On the subject of SGC increases, this debate has been prosecuted many times.

Based on a variety of factors - genuine COLA over time being just one - there is a very good case to increase the SGC over time, to ensure that the majority of people will be able to afford a decent standard of living in retirement, without relying on (and being an impost on) an increasingly difficult-to-qualify-for pension.

The counter arguments are espoused by ideologues...many of whom are also responsible for the ever-tightening eligibility for that self-same pension.

We know where their priorities are. (Hint: They have nothing to do with workers' standard of living in retirement, and all to do with keeping them as "productive economic units" for as long as possible).

And with that said, I am done.


I think there is this idea that every venture and service in the community is the god given right of business to run and profit from and the people have no right to collectivise and run the venture/service themselves for themselves because it takes away a profitable opportunity from Business.

I'm all for taking back with no compensation all our public infrastructure that was plundered in the 90s because you dont reward plunderers by buying back the things they stole.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #65 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:06am
 
Quote:
I think there is this idea that every venture and service in the community is the god given right of business to run and profit from and the people have no right to collectivise and run the venture/service themselves for themselves because it takes away a profitable opportunity from Business.


You have it backwards. No-one is saying industry super funds should be illegal. No-one. Your are fighting imaginary foes.

But the marginal benefit from industry super funds by forgoing some income does not make up for the colossal waste of our retirement savings that inevitably results from compulsory super. Even the people who manage industry super funds are deriving an income by taking large amounts of money out of your savings to provide no beneficial service at all to you. This is what you don't get when you fight imaginary foes and ignore what people are actually telling you. You are losing money, while championing the people who take it from you.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #66 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:31am
 
A question for all those who support investment decisions based on compulsion, government waste, and ideological zealotry: do you know whether these industry super funds you champion are giving your money to the private funds you rail against to manage on a for-profit basis?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #67 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:35am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:06am:
Quote:
I think there is this idea that every venture and service in the community is the god given right of business to run and profit from and the people have no right to collectivise and run the venture/service themselves for themselves because it takes away a profitable opportunity from Business.


You have it backwards. No-one is saying industry super funds should be illegal. No-one. Your are fighting imaginary foes.

But the marginal benefit from industry super funds by forgoing some income does not make up for the colossal waste of our retirement savings that inevitably results from compulsory super. Even the people who manage industry super funds are deriving an income by taking large amounts of money out of your savings to provide no beneficial service at all to you. This is what you don't get when you fight imaginary foes and ignore what people are actually telling you. You are losing money, while championing the people who take it from you.


I don't believe you. Business is doing it by stealth. Thats what pribvaisation was. They plundered the profitable assets that the community built and paid for over 2 centuries and made it there own so that now there are no public airlines,  no public banks, no public telecommunications facilities, fewer public freeways, almost eradicated public electricity all over the country. You cant swallow it up all in one go so you take it gradually but by bit.

In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes pressured the Govt to down grad their service because business cant compete and I have no doubt with all the pressure thats being applied now Business is will gradually destroy public super by buying politicians and through back room deals.

I say lets destroy them first!!!
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #68 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:38am
 
Quote:
I don't believe you.


That's OK. You are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes


More likely because you are ignorant and have not bothered to check. You probably don't even know how to find this out. Or perhaps it was subsidised.

Quote:
I say lets destroy them first!!!


Wouldn't it be better to discard your ignorance first? Or are you afraid of finding out you are wrong after all these years?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #69 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:02am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Quote:
I don't believe you.


That's OK. You are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes


More likely because you are ignorant and have not bothered to check. You probably don't even know how to find this out. Or perhaps it was subsidised.

Quote:
I say lets destroy them first!!!


Wouldn't it be better to discard your ignorance first? Or are you afraid of finding out you are wrong after all these years?
Thats right, all you can do is assert that Im ignorant but cant actually produce any credible evidence against the history and against people's actual experience.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #70 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:33am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:02am:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Quote:
I don't believe you.


That's OK. You are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes


More likely because you are ignorant and have not bothered to check. You probably don't even know how to find this out. Or perhaps it was subsidised.

Quote:
I say lets destroy them first!!!


Wouldn't it be better to discard your ignorance first? Or are you afraid of finding out you are wrong after all these years?
Thats right, all you can do is assert that Im ignorant but cant actually produce any credible evidence against the history and against people's actual experience. 


Yeah he's all talk.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #71 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:58am
 
Gnads wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:33am:
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:02am:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Quote:
I don't believe you.


That's OK. You are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes


More likely because you are ignorant and have not bothered to check. You probably don't even know how to find this out. Or perhaps it was subsidised.

Quote:
I say lets destroy them first!!!


Wouldn't it be better to discard your ignorance first? Or are you afraid of finding out you are wrong after all these years?
Thats right, all you can do is assert that Im ignorant but cant actually produce any credible evidence against the history and against people's actual experience. 


Yeah he's all talk.
Im beginning to think he's a bot. Now I'm not saying he definitively is you understand since I have no evidence but he is anti the common man in almost everything. You know, things like "Why do workers need unions they have never helped workers, that's just propaganda" or "Unions are killing jobs because they don't want their workers working for $5.00 ph" and when was the last time you saw him complain about small business constantly stealing the wages of their workers. 

All I can say is that this is a watching brief for me.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #72 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:22pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:02am:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Quote:
I don't believe you.


That's OK. You are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes


More likely because you are ignorant and have not bothered to check. You probably don't even know how to find this out. Or perhaps it was subsidised.

Quote:
I say lets destroy them first!!!


Wouldn't it be better to discard your ignorance first? Or are you afraid of finding out you are wrong after all these years?
Thats right, all you can do is assert that Im ignorant but cant actually produce any credible evidence against the history and against people's actual experience. 


True. It is hard to refute meaningless gibberish. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin. Why do you prefer ignorance and destruction over letting people choose for themselves?

Quote:
Now I'm not saying he definitively is you understand since I have no evidence but he is anti the common man in almost everything.


You are the one in favour of forcing the common man to give up thousands of dollars from his savings every year to these people you keep championing, so spare me the bleeding heart with the forked tongue.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #73 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 1:22pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 11:02am:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 10:38am:
Quote:
I don't believe you.


That's OK. You are ignorant of the facts.

Quote:
In the super industry I dont know anyone that can get as good a siuper as I get from the Govt. Why. Because the private "for profit" super schemes


More likely because you are ignorant and have not bothered to check. You probably don't even know how to find this out. Or perhaps it was subsidised.

Quote:
I say lets destroy them first!!!


Wouldn't it be better to discard your ignorance first? Or are you afraid of finding out you are wrong after all these years?
Thats right, all you can do is assert that Im ignorant but cant actually produce any credible evidence against the history and against people's actual experience. 


True. It is hard to refute meaningless gibberish. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin. Why do you prefer ignorance and destruction over letting people choose for themselves?

Quote:
Now I'm not saying he definitively is you understand since I have no evidence but he is anti the common man in almost everything.


You are the one in favour of forcing the common man to give up thousands of dollars from his savings every year to these people you keep championing, so spare me the bleeding heart with the forked tongue.


Of course if my posts were truly meaningless gibberish you wouldn't feel so compelled to respond. See your fundamental problem is two fold. (i) Im someone speaking from actual experience, enjoying his comfortable, trouble free, worry free retirement on his Govt managed super fund - which means you have a lot harder time trying to convince people that the snake oil private enterprise "for profit" super funds are anything but a scam (notwithstanding that they give you the freedom of choice to shoot yourself in the foot) and (ii) Although you speak as though you are touting private super funds because its working people you are so concerned about, in every other respect you show nothing but contempt for working people

Do me a favour tell me this; have you ever once posted anything condemning small business for stealing wages off their workers. If so can you produce a link and if I've misjudged you on this score I'll happily apologies.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #74 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:10pm
 
Quote:
Im someone speaking from actual experience


You are speaking from ignorance. You are afraid to even consider what the alternative experience might have been had you made different choices, or had more choices been available to you. I doubt you can even tell us what your experience has been with the funds you have invested in. You wouldn't even know how to find out. From what you've posted you could be living in a tin shack in the desert. Yet for some absurd reason you feel comfortable denying choice to others, based on nothing more than the fact that you have not died yet.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #75 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Quote:
Im someone speaking from actual experience


You are speaking from ignorance. You are afraid to even consider what the alternative experience might have been had you made different choices, or had more choices been available to you. I doubt you can even tell us what your experience has been with the funds you have invested in. You wouldn't even know how to find out. From what you've posted you could be living in a tin shack in the desert. Yet for some absurd reason you feel comfortable denying choice to others, based on nothing more than the fact that you have not died yet.


You see the thing about Small Business steal wages off their workers is that its so wide spread and so obviously a terrible thing to do that you would think that someone who says he's concerned about workers and their freedom of choice would have at least once in all these yrs on ozpolitics condemned Small Business for doing such a miserably low thing. Otherwise one might rightly suspect that when you say you just want workers to have more choice, you dont really care whether this so called "more choice" translates into a meaningful benefit just as long as you can drum up some business for your ideological bedfellow. You follow?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #76 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 3:33pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Quote:
Im someone speaking from actual experience


You are speaking from ignorance. You are afraid to even consider what the alternative experience might have been had you made different choices, or had more choices been available to you. I doubt you can even tell us what your experience has been with the funds you have invested in. You wouldn't even know how to find out. From what you've posted you could be living in a tin shack in the desert. Yet for some absurd reason you feel comfortable denying choice to others, based on nothing more than the fact that you have not died yet.


You see the thing about Small Business steal wages off their workers is that its so wide spread and so obviously a terrible thing to do that you would think that someone who says he's concerned about workers and their freedom of choice would have at least once in all these yrs on ozpolitics condemned Small Business for doing such a miserably low thing. Otherwise one might rightly suspect that when you say you just want workers to have more choice, you dont really care whether this so called "more choice" translates into a meaningful benefit just as long as you can drum up some business for your ideological bedfellow. You follow?


Are you changing the subject because you realise you don't know what you are talking about, or because you forgot what you are talking about?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #77 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 4:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 3:33pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Quote:
Im someone speaking from actual experience


You are speaking from ignorance. You are afraid to even consider what the alternative experience might have been had you made different choices, or had more choices been available to you. I doubt you can even tell us what your experience has been with the funds you have invested in. You wouldn't even know how to find out. From what you've posted you could be living in a tin shack in the desert. Yet for some absurd reason you feel comfortable denying choice to others, based on nothing more than the fact that you have not died yet.


You see the thing about Small Business steal wages off their workers is that its so wide spread and so obviously a terrible thing to do that you would think that someone who says he's concerned about workers and their freedom of choice would have at least once in all these yrs on ozpolitics condemned Small Business for doing such a miserably low thing. Otherwise one might rightly suspect that when you say you just want workers to have more choice, you dont really care whether this so called "more choice" translates into a meaningful benefit just as long as you can drum up some business for your ideological bedfellow. You follow?


Are you changing the subject because you realise you don't know what you are talking about, or because you forgot what you are talking about?


No, you were going around in circles saying the same thing over and over again with no evidence and obviously convincing nobody so you know, change of pace. But you're right this thread is boring me now.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #78 - Oct 11th, 2020 at 5:28pm
 
No evidence of what? You have not asked me to back anything up. You are barely aware of what the topic is.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #79 - Oct 17th, 2020 at 8:47am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Quote:
Im someone speaking from actual experience


You are speaking from ignorance. You are afraid to even consider what the alternative experience might have been had you made different choices, or had more choices been available to you. I doubt you can even tell us what your experience has been with the funds you have invested in. You wouldn't even know how to find out. From what you've posted you could be living in a tin shack in the desert. Yet for some absurd reason you feel comfortable denying choice to others, based on nothing more than the fact that you have not died yet.


You see the thing about Small Business steal wages off their workers is that its so wide spread and so obviously a terrible thing to do that you would think that someone who says he's concerned about workers and their freedom of choice would have at least once in all these yrs on ozpolitics condemned Small Business for doing such a miserably low thing. Otherwise one might rightly suspect that when you say you just want workers to have more choice, you dont really care whether this so called "more choice" translates into a meaningful benefit just as long as you can drum up some business for your ideological bedfellow. You follow?


If their only current choice is unemployment, I am all for more options.

Does this have anything to do with the mindless compulsion to increase super?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #80 - Nov 8th, 2020 at 10:39am
 
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 4:56pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 3:33pm:
Jest wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Quote:
Im someone speaking from actual experience


You are speaking from ignorance. You are afraid to even consider what the alternative experience might have been had you made different choices, or had more choices been available to you. I doubt you can even tell us what your experience has been with the funds you have invested in. You wouldn't even know how to find out. From what you've posted you could be living in a tin shack in the desert. Yet for some absurd reason you feel comfortable denying choice to others, based on nothing more than the fact that you have not died yet.


You see the thing about Small Business steal wages off their workers is that its so wide spread and so obviously a terrible thing to do that you would think that someone who says he's concerned about workers and their freedom of choice would have at least once in all these yrs on ozpolitics condemned Small Business for doing such a miserably low thing. Otherwise one might rightly suspect that when you say you just want workers to have more choice, you dont really care whether this so called "more choice" translates into a meaningful benefit just as long as you can drum up some business for your ideological bedfellow. You follow?


Are you changing the subject because you realise you don't know what you are talking about, or because you forgot what you are talking about?


No, you were going around in circles saying the same thing over and over again with no evidence and obviously convincing nobody so you know, change of pace. But you're right this thread is boring me now.


If you keep insisting that your meaningless experience means something, all I can do is continue pointing out that it doesn't. You have to add the meaning, not me.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #81 - Nov 21st, 2020 at 8:35am
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #82 - Nov 28th, 2020 at 8:12am
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #83 - Nov 28th, 2020 at 9:22am
 
FreeDiver has a few new players to stoush with now, besides Polite_Gandalf.

I very much doubt FD is a Jehovah's Witness though. He's too mainstream Protestant and I doubt he's an attending Protestant at that. Seems more 'unfettered'.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #84 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:36am
 
Who thinks white knight deserves a few kickbacks from the rich fund managers?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1607122018
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #85 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:48am
 
crook never mentions who ends up paying for that retirement super...thats right crook consumers do...any employer worth his salt will pass that on to all those who can ill afford it.....Union reps are all well paid...including those who run these super funds....so no skin off their noses.....but if you work for a small business  [local supermarket] not only does your take home pay go down   but your shopping bills and utility bills go UP.....because crook  they all happen to be consumers...
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #86 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am
 
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #87 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #88 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:05pm
 
ACTU briefs Super Trustees Forum on campaign against attacks on super
4 December 2020
ACTU.
ACTU President will update superannuation trustees on preparations being made by the peak body for working people to defend workers’ retirement savings today at the ACTU’s Superannuation Trustees Forum.

The Morrison Government is continuing its long-running campaign against superannuation by threatening to reverse the legislated increase to the superannuation guarantee at a time when the average Australian is expected to run out of super 10 years before they die.

This comes at a time when 70 per cent of women have estimated super balances of less than $150,000 and almost a quarter have balances less than $50,000. Women retire with roughly half as much super as men, and older women are currently the fastest growing group of homeless Australians.

In 2014 Tony Abbott delayed an increase in the superannuation guarantee, promising that wages would rise. Wages did not rise. In fact, at every point since 2014, annual wage growth has been lower than any other period since 1997.

The ACTU is campaigning to defend workers’ legislated increase of the superannuation guarantee, which would mean $100,000 more in retirement for the average worker.

There is reform needed in the super system – super should be paid on every dollar earned, including on parental leave, for all workers, no matter their age, income or how they’re employed. 2.1 million workers – many who work multiple jobs - earning less than $450 a month per job are excluded from earning superannuation. This must change.

Quotes attributable to ACTU President Michele O’Neil:

“In campaigning against the legislated rise in super the Morrison Government is punishing those hardest hit by the pandemic. Refusing to honour their election promise to increase the super guarantee would only cause further damage to working people, many of whom have had to raid their retirement savings to fund their own crisis response.

“The pandemic cannot be used to justify an attack on super, the average worker is already expected to run out of super 10 years before they die. We need to reform the system to make it stronger, not gut it.

“Older women represent the fastest growing group becoming homeless, they need a better deal on super in order to avoid poverty in retirement. Rather than doing anything to help, the Government is attempting to kick out the ladder from under them.

“The union movement stands ready to resist any attacks on workers’ retirement savings. Like with Medicare, we need to improve and strengthen our retirement system, which is already the envy of the world – not tear it down.”
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #89 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:31pm
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes

If I understand the central point here I agree.
The presumption any ideological system can be applied to any situation for optimum effect is the delusion of both left and right.
What is this ‘perfect world’ anyway? Given our species is prone to irrational actions from left and right and given the implementation of any particular ideology is invariably perverted by corruption, nepotism and ‘jobs for the boys’ the endless arguments taking place on this forum often have little if anything to do with real world politics. They certainly fail to take into account the fundamental problems of human nature. One is reminded of, for instance, Ayn Rand’s delusional imagination and the equally absurd prophesies of Marxists.

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #90 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm
 
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #91 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:12pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.



your precious Keating brought in SUper  without any thought going into the next 20/30/40/50 years.. if you think every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business   good luck with that....you are also forgetting the people that dont have a job...what about them???

women are already behind the 8ball... yet I dont hear you or crook whingeing about them.....

we all know it wont cost as much to feed and clothe a female as it does a male   dont we????

women are still the most underpaid...
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #92 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:16pm
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.



your precious Keating brought in SUper  without any thought going into the next 20/30/40/50 years.. if you think every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business   good luck with that....you are also forgetting the people that dont have a job...what about them???

women are already behind the 8ball... yet I dont hear you or crook whingeing about them.....

we all know it wont cost as much to feed and clothe a female as it does a male   dont we????

women are still the most underpaid...


Quote:
every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business


Well who is it, you can't have it both ways ?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #93 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:18pm
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


Unlike the right wing ideologies that aim to make sure that we don't at any cost.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #94 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #95 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:21pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:18pm:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


Unlike the right wing ideologies that aim to make sure that we don't at any cost.



what tosh   you are so rusted on   its pathetic...
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #96 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:22pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:16pm:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.



your precious Keating brought in SUper  without any thought going into the next 20/30/40/50 years.. if you think every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business   good luck with that....you are also forgetting the people that dont have a job...what about them???

women are already behind the 8ball... yet I dont hear you or crook whingeing about them.....

we all know it wont cost as much to feed and clothe a female as it does a male   dont we????

women are still the most underpaid...


Quote:
every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business


Well who is it, you can't have it both ways ?



alright slip of the pen..  let me know if you need it explained to you.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #97 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:12am
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.



your precious Keating brought in SUper  without any thought going into the next 20/30/40/50 years.. if you think every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business   good luck with that....you are also forgetting the people that dont have a job...what about them???

women are already behind the 8ball... yet I dont hear you or crook whingeing about them.....

we all know it wont cost as much to feed and clothe a female as it does a male   dont we????

women are still the most underpaid...


See that's how much you know

The only people getting 15% paid into their superannuation are Politicians...... and who pays them?

The rest of us have a minimum of 5% voluntary co-contribution and be able to put in up to $25k per year(reduced by the LNP from $35k).

Any amount higher than the $25k is then taxed at a higher rate instead of the nominal 15%.

The current Super Guarantee base rate paid by employers is 9.5% and is due to increase gradually to 12% by 30 June 2026.

So there is no projected increase to 15%.

Tell me Cods if we are to do away with the pension - how are we expected to live in our retirement?

How much thought have you put in to what comes for those that come after you in 20/30/40/50 years?

Do you live solely on the govt. pension or do you have super?

Oh & btw - women are not underpaid - that's a complete furphy.

They get paid the same amount as a male counterpart in what ever job they do.



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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #98 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #99 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:23am
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:31pm:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes

If I understand the central point here I agree.
The presumption any ideological system can be applied to any situation for optimum effect is the delusion of both left and right.
What is this ‘perfect world’ anyway? Given our species is prone to irrational actions from left and right and given the implementation of any particular ideology is invariably perverted by corruption, nepotism and ‘jobs for the boys’ the endless arguments taking place on this forum often have little if anything to do with real world politics. They certainly fail to take into account the fundamental problems of human nature. One is reminded of, for instance, Ayn Rand’s delusional imagination and the equally absurd prophesies of Marxists.



I read somewhere that Marx's predictions were fairly good. What they didn't consider was that Marx basically warned everyone of what might happen and helped to prevent it. The book credited Marx with making liberal humanism more reasonable.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #100 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:25am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:12am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.



your precious Keating brought in SUper  without any thought going into the next 20/30/40/50 years.. if you think every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business   good luck with that....you are also forgetting the people that dont have a job...what about them???

women are already behind the 8ball... yet I dont hear you or crook whingeing about them.....

we all know it wont cost as much to feed and clothe a female as it does a male   dont we????

women are still the most underpaid...


See that's how much you know

The only people getting 15% paid into their superannuation are Politicians...... and who pays them?

The rest of us have a minimum of 5% voluntary co-contribution and be able to put in up to $25k per year(reduced by the LNP from $35k).

Any amount higher than the $25k is then taxed at a higher rate instead of the nominal 15%.

The current Super Guarantee base rate paid by employers is 9.5% and is due to increase gradually to 12% by 30 June 2026.

So there is no projected increase to 15%.

Tell me Cods if we are to do away with the pension - how are we expected to live in our retirement?

THEY WILL NOT DO AWAY WITH THE PENSION

How much thought have you put in to what comes for those that come after you in 20/30/40/50 years?

Do you live solely on the govt. pension or do you have super?
yes i do
AND no i dont


Oh & btw - women are not underpaid - that's a complete furphy.

They get paid the same amount as a male counterpart in what ever job they do.




a
LETS SEE HOW MUCH YOU KNOW   MR KNOWALL..

TRY READING THIS..

[urlhttps://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap][/url]

In observance of Equal Pay Day (March 31, 2020), PayScale has updated our tremendously popular Gender Pay Gap Report for 2020. Since we have started tracking the gender pay gap, the difference between the earnings of women and men has shrunk, but only by an incremental amount each year. There remains a disparity in how men and women are paid, even when all compensable factors are controlled, meaning that women are still being paid less than men due to no attributable reason other than gender. As our data will show, the gender pay gap is wider for women of color, women in executive level roles, women in certain occupations and industries, and in some US states.


UNCONTROLLED GENDER PAY GAP..
WOMEN EARN 81 CENTS TO EVERY $1 MEN EARN..


IN A CONTROLLED GENDER PAY GAP..

WOMEN EARN 98CENTS FOR EVERY $1 MEN EARN......

THAT MIGHT BE EQUAL IN YOUR MIND BUT IT SURE ISNT IN WOMENS MINDS... Angry Angry Angry
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #101 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:28am
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish

.. its common knowledge that CEOs are paid by the amount of revenue that flows.....in other words the more money coming in the more take they get  which includes huge bonuses..
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #102 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 10:26am
 
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:21pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:18pm:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


Unlike the right wing ideologies that aim to make sure that we don't at any cost.



what tosh   you are so rusted on   its pathetic...


You too - you think the low grubs are all shiny and sparkling.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #103 - Dec 6th, 2020 at 10:27am
 
cods wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:28am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish

.. its common knowledge that CEOs are paid by the amount of revenue that flows.....in other words the more money coming in the more take they get  which includes huge bonuses..


They take huge bonuses from losses too ???
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #104 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:30am
 
cods wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:25am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:12am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:12pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 11:46am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 9:49am:
more like mindless ideology who think we should all  live in a perfect world. Roll Eyes


You're a dab hand at mindless ideology.

Your precious LNP want people to work until they're 70.

They don't want them to have the pension & they want to reduce or make super voluntary.

Thus having more people retire into poverty & require the govt. pension.

They also want you to sell your family home to fund your retirement.

Oh & they've passed legislation in 2018 called the Bank Bail-in Bill where when there is a financial crisis banks can take their customers deposits and use them to prop up the business.

Nice bunch of people(bastards) they are.



your precious Keating brought in SUper  without any thought going into the next 20/30/40/50 years.. if you think every person with a job can afford 15% likewise every small business   good luck with that....you are also forgetting the people that dont have a job...what about them???

women are already behind the 8ball... yet I dont hear you or crook whingeing about them.....

we all know it wont cost as much to feed and clothe a female as it does a male   dont we????

women are still the most underpaid...


See that's how much you know

The only people getting 15% paid into their superannuation are Politicians...... and who pays them?

The rest of us have a minimum of 5% voluntary co-contribution and be able to put in up to $25k per year(reduced by the LNP from $35k).

Any amount higher than the $25k is then taxed at a higher rate instead of the nominal 15%.

The current Super Guarantee base rate paid by employers is 9.5% and is due to increase gradually to 12% by 30 June 2026.

So there is no projected increase to 15%.

Tell me Cods if we are to do away with the pension - how are we expected to live in our retirement?

THEY WILL NOT DO AWAY WITH THE PENSION

How much thought have you put in to what comes for those that come after you in 20/30/40/50 years?

Do you live solely on the govt. pension or do you have super?
yes i do
AND no i dont


Oh & btw - women are not underpaid - that's a complete furphy.

They get paid the same amount as a male counterpart in what ever job they do.




a
LETS SEE HOW MUCH YOU KNOW   MR KNOWALL..

TRY READING THIS..

[urlhttps://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap][/url]

In observance of Equal Pay Day (March 31, 2020), PayScale has updated our tremendously popular Gender Pay Gap Report for 2020. Since we have started tracking the gender pay gap, the difference between the earnings of women and men has shrunk, but only by an incremental amount each year. There remains a disparity in how men and women are paid, even when all compensable factors are controlled, meaning that women are still being paid less than men due to no attributable reason other than gender. As our data will show, the gender pay gap is wider for women of color, women in executive level roles, women in certain occupations and industries, and in some US states.


UNCONTROLLED GENDER PAY GAP..
WOMEN EARN 81 CENTS TO EVERY $1 MEN EARN..


IN A CONTROLLED GENDER PAY GAP..

WOMEN EARN 98CENTS FOR EVERY $1 MEN EARN......

THAT MIGHT BE EQUAL IN YOUR MIND BUT IT SURE ISNT IN WOMENS MINDS... Angry Angry Angry


Bullshyte - I worked for a big corporation that had   a multitude of different jobs ....

it has in the last 20 years dramatically increased the number of women in its workforce .... and whatever job they do in it's classification they are paid exactly the same rate per hour as men doing the same job.

This is applied nationally and not just in the company I worked for.

So I'm saying that link & it's author is talking bullshyte.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #105 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:34am
 
cods wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:28am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish

.. its common knowledge that CEOs are paid by the amount of revenue that flows.....in other words the more money coming in the more take they get  which includes huge bonuses..


I believe that CEO's receive obscene salaries & bonuses.

As far as the amount of "revenue that flows" the employees have a hand in that & should be on the receiving end of some of that overpaid to CEO's.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #106 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:34am
 
##
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #107 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:41am
 
Cultural greatness only comes when a section of the populous are extremely wealthy and can afford to build pyramids for their burial.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #108 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 5:58pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:34am:
cods wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:28am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish

.. its common knowledge that CEOs are paid by the amount of revenue that flows.....in other words the more money coming in the more take they get  which includes huge bonuses..


I believe that CEO's receive obscene salaries & bonuses.

As far as the amount of "revenue that flows" the employees have a hand in that & should be on the receiving end of some of that overpaid to CEO's.


By what measure? How jealous you are?

Not sure if you realise, but if it did not go to the CEO, it would be paid out to shareholders. The shareholders effectively pay the CEO out of their own pocket.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #109 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 5:58pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:34am:
cods wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:28am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish

.. its common knowledge that CEOs are paid by the amount of revenue that flows.....in other words the more money coming in the more take they get  which includes huge bonuses..


I believe that CEO's receive obscene salaries & bonuses.

As far as the amount of "revenue that flows" the employees have a hand in that & should be on the receiving end of some of that overpaid to CEO's.


By what measure? How jealous you are?

Not sure if you realise, but if it did not go to the CEO, it would be paid out to shareholders. The shareholders effectively pay the CEO out of their own pocket.


Dios mío ...... you are a dickhead ... they do not.

It's off the backs of their employees or dividends do not get paid.

The CEO still gets paid.  Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #110 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:09pm
 
Quote:
Dios mío ...... you are a dickhead ... they do not.


You are getting hysterical. Try to relax and speak in whole sentences.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #111 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:09pm:
Quote:
Dios mío ...... you are a dickhead ... they do not.


You are getting hysterical. Try to relax and speak in whole sentences.


What?  if that's applicable to you it would be arse whole sentences.

Thought I was already doing that? Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #112 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:02am
 
Let's try again Gnads. Do you disagree with this statement, and if so, why?

Not sure if you realise, but if it did not go to the CEO, it would be paid out to shareholders. The shareholders effectively pay the CEO out of their own pocket.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #113 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:25am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:02am:
Let's try again Gnads. Do you disagree with this statement, and if so, why?

Not sure if you realise, but if it did not go to the CEO, it would be paid out to shareholders. The shareholders effectively pay the CEO out of their own pocket.


The company pays the CEO

The company being run by the CEO & executive officers under the scrutiny of the board of directors ......

Once a year at the AGM shareholders get to vote on a raft of issues including the CEOs remuneration & bonuses ... if any are factored into his contract.

The success of the company is reliant on the business decisions of the CEO/Executive & Board....

the employees have a big impact on how all those decisions are acted on & their success in the workplace in delivering profitable outcomes.

It's a team effort & therefore should be distributed proportionately across the company and to shareholders.

Your attitude is all stick & no carrot mentality

and is another reason why workplace Unions will remain relevant.


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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #114 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:28am
 
Giving your money to the Union is like paying Blue Bets to get you ahead.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #115 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:33am
 
I still cannot tell whether you disagree with me or not.

Quote:
The company pays the CEO


The company, owned by the shareholders, pays the CEO. Hence, shareholders pay the CEO. It's no different to if you owned a fish and chips shop and paid someone to manage it for you. You wouldn't say that the teenager who serves the customers pays the manager, would you? Nor would you say that this view implies anything at all about the other employees.

Quote:
Your attitude is all stick & no carrot mentality


I am not saying anything at all about how to manage employees. You are creating a false dichotomy. Even the CEO is an employee. You are inventing classes that don't exist so you know who to blame or who to be jealous of.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #116 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:59am
 
Jasin wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:28am:
Giving your money to the Union is like paying Blue Bets to get you ahead.


Is it "your" money?  Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #117 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 8:01am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:33am:
I still cannot tell whether you disagree with me or not.

Quote:
The company pays the CEO


The company, owned by the shareholders, pays the CEO. Hence, shareholders pay the CEO. It's no different to if you owned a fish and chips shop and paid someone to manage it for you. You wouldn't say that the teenager who serves the customers pays the manager, would you? Nor would you say that this view implies anything at all about the other employees.

Quote:
Your attitude is all stick & no carrot mentality


I am not saying anything at all about how to manage employees. You are creating a false dichotomy. Even the CEO is an employee. You are inventing classes that don't exist so you know who to blame or who to be jealous of.


OK ... then when a company fails .... who's to blame?  Roll Eyes

You'd want to kick it downstairs then I'd bet.

Why is that you think it unreasonable for employees to have enough funds to live a comfortable life when they retire without having to go on the pension?

Why would you think it a fair idea that retirees should have to sell their family home & then rent to fund their retirement?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #118 - Dec 10th, 2020 at 6:02pm
 
Quote:
OK ... then when a company fails .... who's to blame?


The fact that you think this question even makes sense just shows how deluded the unions have made you. There is more to life than jealousy and blame.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #119 - Dec 10th, 2020 at 6:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 5:58pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 8:34am:
cods wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 9:28am:
Gnads wrote on Dec 6th, 2020 at 8:16am:
cods wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 2:20pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 1:36pm:
Putting more money into superannuation will increase the price of shares and drive down returns and further enrich fund managers and superannuation salespersons.

The recent share buybacks in the USA have reduced the pool of shares in the market which has driven up the price.

Australian governments have run out of government entities to privatize which is further inhibiting the growth of the number of shares in the market.



thats what we have been telling these SUper warriors for ages..........but crook is fine with the CEOs  and apparently so is gnads  getting a fair cut out of anything anyone saves...... Angry Angry

lets face it its just another business   ... to put already well heeled people into another  cushy job that just happens to pay extraordinary  well..


What the hell are you on about?

Total rubbish

.. its common knowledge that CEOs are paid by the amount of revenue that flows.....in other words the more money coming in the more take they get  which includes huge bonuses..


I believe that CEO's receive obscene salaries & bonuses.

As far as the amount of "revenue that flows" the employees have a hand in that & should be on the receiving end of some of that overpaid to CEO's.


By what measure? How jealous you are?

Not sure if you realise, but if it did not go to the CEO, it would be paid out to shareholders. The shareholders effectively pay the CEO out of their own pocket.


While upper management and CEO pay rates have skyrocketed employee wages have been stagnant. Coincidence - NO.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #120 - Dec 14th, 2020 at 7:18pm
 
What about causation?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #121 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 6:27am
 
https://go.morningstar.com.au/content-premium-guide-to-funds

Quote:
In Australia, the managed funds industry was over $3.7 trillion in the March quarter of 2020, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. A key boost for the industry has come in the form of compulsory superannuation. Ninety per cent of managed funds in Australia are held within superannuation or pension accounts.


The industry is almost entirely dependent on government dictate, yet no-onw bats an eyelid when that industry starts demanding the government increase the amount of super each of us hold.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #122 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 7:59am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 6:27am:
https://go.morningstar.com.au/content-premium-guide-to-funds

Quote:
In Australia, the managed funds industry was over $3.7 trillion in the March quarter of 2020, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. A key boost for the industry has come in the form of compulsory superannuation. Ninety per cent of managed funds in Australia are held within superannuation or pension accounts.


The industry is almost entirely dependent on government dictate, yet no-onw bats an eyelid when that industry starts demanding the government increase the amount of super each of us hold.


It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.

The current LNP govt want to reduce that ability of people in their retirement - though I don't know why?

Yet they want to throttle Industry super funds so their mates in the private sector banking & super can get their hands on money held.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #123 - Dec 27th, 2020 at 3:34pm
 
Quote:
It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.


That's what it's supposed to be. What it actually is is a cash cow for financial advisers and fund managers.

Quote:
The current LNP govt want to reduce that ability of people in their retirement - though I don't know why?


Crap. Not losing 1% every year on government bureaucracy, and then another 1% or more per year on top of that in management fees, would actually leave people far better off.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #124 - Dec 27th, 2020 at 3:37pm
 
Most Supers are under-performing. It's a bit like Records and Books - only a few big performers like Record Labels and Publishers. The rest is just a scam. Scammers create jobs these days and make more money.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #125 - Dec 28th, 2020 at 6:39am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2020 at 3:34pm:
Quote:
It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.


That's what it's supposed to be. What it actually is is a cash cow for financial advisers and fund managers.

Quote:
The current LNP govt want to reduce that ability of people in their retirement - though I don't know why?


Crap. Not losing 1% every year on government bureaucracy, and then another 1% or more per year on top of that in management fees, would actually leave people far better off.


So you think the banks should be given control of all superfund monies? Like they want. Like the LNP want to give them?

Industry funds are outperforming private funds/bank/Insurance company schemes & charge less fees.

Why is that a bad thing? Do you expect a persons super money to be managed for nothing?

What do you suggest people retire on if there's no superannuation and no pension?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #126 - Dec 28th, 2020 at 6:51am
 
Jasin wrote on Dec 27th, 2020 at 3:37pm:
Most Supers are under-performing. It's a bit like Records and Books - only a few big performers like Record Labels and Publishers. The rest is just a scam. Scammers create jobs these days and make more money.


Under performing compared to what?

The current RBA interest rate is 0.10%.

Home Loan interest rates are under 4% down to
as low as 2.34%.

Bank interest on savings accounts is about 0.55% to 1.5%.

Industry super funds returns are far higher than any of that.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #127 - Dec 31st, 2020 at 9:04am
 
That's setting the bar pretty low don't you think?

Cover your ears and chant:

whiteknight wrote on Dec 31st, 2020 at 8:57am:
Another contentious issue will be the future of the Superannuation Guarantee, which is legislated to rise from 9.5 per cent of wages to 12 per cent by July 2025.  Yes Mr Morrison, super must be increased to 12 per cent.   Sad

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #128 - Dec 31st, 2020 at 10:23pm
 
Gnads wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 7:59am:
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 6:27am:
https://go.morningstar.com.au/content-premium-guide-to-funds

Quote:
In Australia, the managed funds industry was over $3.7 trillion in the March quarter of 2020, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. A key boost for the industry has come in the form of compulsory superannuation. Ninety per cent of managed funds in Australia are held within superannuation or pension accounts.


The industry is almost entirely dependent on government dictate, yet no-onw bats an eyelid when that industry starts demanding the government increase the amount of super each of us hold.


It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.

The current LNP govt want to reduce that ability of people in their retirement - though I don't know why?

Yet they want to throttle Industry super funds so their mates in the private sector banking & super can get their hands on money held.


Quote:
It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.


Labor put the industry super in place because projections were saying that with the number of boomers reaching retirement and the lower number of younger people in the workforce that pensions would become unaffordable.

Having more people self funded or partially funded was Labor's solution. The Liberals on the other hand stopped the scheduled super guarantee increases for much of the last 2 decades with the result that instead of people becoming self funded in the numbers needed government had to increase the pension age to cover the costs.

Then we had Joe Hockey crying in his beer and trying to increase the retirement age to 70 while at the same time blocking super guarantee increases that would have solved the problem.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #129 - Jan 1st, 2021 at 8:42am
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 31st, 2020 at 10:23pm:
Gnads wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 7:59am:
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 6:27am:
https://go.morningstar.com.au/content-premium-guide-to-funds

Quote:
In Australia, the managed funds industry was over $3.7 trillion in the March quarter of 2020, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. A key boost for the industry has come in the form of compulsory superannuation. Ninety per cent of managed funds in Australia are held within superannuation or pension accounts.


The industry is almost entirely dependent on government dictate, yet no-onw bats an eyelid when that industry starts demanding the government increase the amount of super each of us hold.


It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.

The current LNP govt want to reduce that ability of people in their retirement - though I don't know why?

Yet they want to throttle Industry super funds so their mates in the private sector banking & super can get their hands on money held.


Quote:
It's(superannuation) supposed to be so that people have no reliance on the pension & govts don't have to supply pensions.


Labor put the industry super in place because projections were saying that with the number of boomers reaching retirement and the lower number of younger people in the workforce that pensions would become unaffordable.

Having more people self funded or partially funded was Labor's solution. The Liberals on the other hand stopped the scheduled super guarantee increases for much of the last 2 decades with the result that instead of people becoming self funded in the numbers needed government had to increase the pension age to cover the costs.

Then we had Joe Hockey crying in his beer and trying to increase the retirement age to 70 while at the same time blocking super guarantee increases that would have solved the problem.


Correct
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #130 - Jan 1st, 2021 at 9:36am
 
National super scheme out of the hands of the knaves in politics and their mates.... and into which every working age person has a minimum contribution placed every fortnight ....

Which reminds me - why is it not simple to automatically send super in every pay instead of every three months?  Only a knave would come up with a system that says that any employer can use that money to trade and prosper, and then say he's too broke every three months to pay it.... what about the seasonal employer?  Oh - sorry - I was flush during the crop/market season, but now I'm on the ropes... sorry - no can pay super.... I live in a seaside town that relies on tourism one hell of a lot....

What about MegaCorp that goes 'bankrupt'?  Employee's super is not sacrosanct
(unlike the lazy millions Bossy has salted away with his son/daughter/dog/wife/ trust fund ... etc.. and 'can't be recovered legally since it is a cost of doing business such as paying your daughter millions while she's in school for providing administrative advice' etc ... and besides - those 'separate operating entities' have already spent all the money gaining tax deductions for their 'business'.)
... so it's all gone with the wind once the company is Gordon Gecko'd by the boss who comes out smelling of roses and rolling in millions....

Raw capitalism at its very best - andre` - we need you back with more of your legalised inanities... theft by another name......
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #131 - Jan 1st, 2021 at 9:42am
 
Put politicians etc on the same scheme as everyone else - better still - force them on to a retail fund - and then let's hear it from the monkeys....

They'll soon change their tune.... BTW - to re-visit again and again - who ever said that becoming a politician etc gave anyone the right to live high out of the public purse for life?  I thought they were all so wonderful in their brilliant careers that they gave up a lot to enter politics.... yet at the same time there is a 'need' to sustain them in luxury for life?

It's not like they're underpaid in relation to the ordinary jobs market.....
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #132 - Jan 2nd, 2021 at 7:49am
 
Graps ... both of those posts spell it out truly.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #133 - Jan 8th, 2021 at 11:47am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 2nd, 2021 at 7:49am:
Graps ... both of those posts spell it out truly.


And are totally irrelevant.

How does siphoning off everyone's savings to fund managers help to solve any of those problems?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #134 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 7:02am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2021 at 11:47am:
Gnads wrote on Jan 2nd, 2021 at 7:49am:
Graps ... both of those posts spell it out truly.


And are totally irrelevant.

How does siphoning off everyone's savings to fund managers help to solve any of those problems?


So what's your alternative if pensions are to become a thing of the past?

And just to clarify a point you made..... the real siphoners of savings are the big banks & private enterprise Insurance/super funds and their CEO's.

That's why there are "Industry" funds ..... just like why trade unions exist.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #135 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 9:23am
 
Quote:
So what's your alternative if pensions are to become a thing of the past?


Anyone who demonstrates an ongoing ability to save well in excess of super should be exempt from it.

There should be no more increases to compulsory super. Government funded jobs (eg in universities) that have more than the minimum should reduce it to the minimum. Also, the minimum should be wound back a bit.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #136 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 9:42am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 9:23am:
Quote:
So what's your alternative if pensions are to become a thing of the past?


Anyone who demonstrates an ongoing ability to save well in excess of super should be exempt from it.

There should be no more increases to compulsory super. Government funded jobs (eg in universities) that have more than the minimum should reduce it to the minimum. Also, the minimum should be wound back a bit.


And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?

Contributing to super that's paying 8% plus is surely making savings for your retirement?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #137 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am
 
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #138 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:14am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


An investment house.... to rent?

I've seen what happens to investment renters.

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #139 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:17am
 
To live in Gnads. It's the biggest investment most people make. And the money you save on rent is a tax free return.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #140 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:25am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:17am:
To live in Gnads. It's the biggest investment most people make. And the money you save on rent is a tax free return.


Did that in 1979.

Most today then have to use the equity in the house to survive & thus remain in debt.

Do you think everyones on generous salaries....

I wouldn't believe you would because you're always advocating they should be paid less or be under paid by their employers. Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #141 - Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:44am
 
Quote:
Do you think everyones on generous salaries....


I don't see anyone going hungry. By "generous" you mean relative - the politics of envy. You don't mean more than enough to get by on.

You do realise that super comes out of your salary, right? People would get a raise of about 10% if we got rid of super. Super isn't a magic wand you can wave to make everyone richer. Under my proposal, those who are struggling would still get super. It would be those who do not need it, for whom it is merely a waste of money on government bureaucracy, that would be most affected.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #142 - Jan 16th, 2021 at 8:55am
 
Perhaps the unions are siphoning people's super to fund political campaigns? It's the only thing WK seems to care about as much as plugging the unions.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1610481444
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #143 - Jan 16th, 2021 at 9:43pm
 
Super should be increased to the extent businesses go bankrupt. The state should then assume control of all super and wages. This is progress.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #144 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 8:25am
 
ACTU briefs Super Trustees Forum on campaign against attacks on super
4 December 2020
ACTU.
ACTU briefs Super Trustees Forum on campaign against attacks on super
ACTU President will update superannuation trustees on preparations being made by the peak body for working people to defend workers’ retirement savings today at the ACTU’s Superannuation Trustees Forum.

The Morrison Government is continuing its long-running campaign against superannuation by threatening to reverse the legislated increase to the superannuation guarantee at a time when the average Australian is expected to run out of super 10 years before they die.

This comes at a time when 70 per cent of women have estimated super balances of less than $150,000 and almost a quarter have balances less than $50,000. Women retire with roughly half as much super as men, and older women are currently the fastest growing group of homeless Australians.

In 2014 Tony Abbott delayed an increase in the superannuation guarantee, promising that wages would rise. Wages did not rise. In fact, at every point since 2014, annual wage growth has been lower than any other period since 1997.

The ACTU is campaigning to defend workers’ legislated increase of the superannuation guarantee, which would mean $100,000 more in retirement for the average worker.

There is reform needed in the super system – super should be paid on every dollar earned, including on parental leave, for all workers, no matter their age, income or how they’re employed. 2.1 million workers – many who work multiple jobs - earning less than $450 a month per job are excluded from earning superannuation. This must change.

Quotes attributable to ACTU President Michele O’Neil:

“In campaigning against the legislated rise in super the Morrison Government is punishing those hardest hit by the pandemic. Refusing to honour their election promise to increase the super guarantee would only cause further damage to working people, many of whom have had to raid their retirement savings to fund their own crisis response.

“The pandemic cannot be used to justify an attack on super, the average worker is already expected to run out of super 10 years before they die. We need to reform the system to make it stronger, not gut it.

“Older women represent the fastest growing group becoming homeless, they need a better deal on super in order to avoid poverty in retirement. Rather than doing anything to help, the Government is attempting to kick out the ladder from under them.

“The union movement stands ready to resist any attacks on workers’ retirement savings. Like with Medicare, we need to improve and strengthen our retirement system, which is already the envy of the world – not tear it down.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #145 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 9:33am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 16th, 2021 at 9:43pm:
Super should be increased to the extent businesses go bankrupt. The state should then assume control of all super and wages. This is progress.
Political theory has advanced since Marx.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #146 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 10:40am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:44am:
People would get a raise of about 10% if we got rid of super.




Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You actually believe that?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #147 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #148 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:20am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:17am:
To live in Gnads. It's the biggest investment most people make. And the money you save on rent is a tax free return.


It only works because retired people do not need anywhere to live right ?

Whoops
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #149 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:22am
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 10:40am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:44am:
People would get a raise of about 10% if we got rid of super.




Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You actually believe that?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


10% mostly taxed at 33% if the employer were to pass it on correctly.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #150 - Jan 17th, 2021 at 9:02pm
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 9:33am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 16th, 2021 at 9:43pm:
Super should be increased to the extent businesses go bankrupt. The state should then assume control of all super and wages. This is progress.
Political theory has advanced since Marx.


Only in regards to identity politics. This is progress.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #151 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:28pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 10:40am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:44am:
People would get a raise of about 10% if we got rid of super.




Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You actually believe that?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Yes. Where do you think the money comes from?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #152 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:28pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 10:40am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:44am:
People would get a raise of about 10% if we got rid of super.




Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You actually believe that?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Yes. Where do you think the money comes from?



At my yearly pay reviews -
employers never failed to remind me
of all the super money they paid on my behalf.
It was a cost to their business and money I couldn't receive.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #153 - Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:20am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:17am:
To live in Gnads. It's the biggest investment most people make. And the money you save on rent is a tax free return.


It only works because retired people do not need anywhere to live right ?

Whoops


You are confused.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #154 - Jan 21st, 2021 at 11:46am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:20am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:17am:
To live in Gnads. It's the biggest investment most people make. And the money you save on rent is a tax free return.


It only works because retired people do not need anywhere to live right ?

Whoops


You are confused.


So why does the current LNP want retirees to sell their homes to fund their retirement & then have to pay rent out of that, to a property investing Landlord like you? Roll Eyes
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #155 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 8:24am
 
Quote:
So why does the current LNP want retirees to sell their homes to fund their retirement & then have to pay rent out of that, to a property investing Landlord like you?


Can you quote them?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #156 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #157 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:54am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation


You are confused Barnacle. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #158 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:37am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:54am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation


You are confused Barnacle. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.


But this has no relevance to superannuation which is intended to provide you with an income in retirement.
Neither of the scenarios you presented provide an income, so they are not relevant as an argument against superannuation
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #159 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:43am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:54am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation


You are confused Barnacle. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.


But this has no relevance to superannuation which is intended to provide you with an income in retirement.
Neither of the scenarios you presented provide an income, so they are not relevant as an argument against superannuation


What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #160 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:56am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:43am:
What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?


When you are retired you DON"T have an income
Owning your own home isn't a replacement for superannuation. It's additional to superannuation
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #161 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 11:17am
 
That's twice you have failed to give a straight answer Barnacle.

Every retiree in Australia has an income, if they want one.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #162 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 11:23am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 11:17am:
That's twice you have failed to give a straight answer Barnacle.

Every retiree in Australia has an income, if they want one.


The pension
I don't know about you but I don't want to have to rely on the pension when I retire, especially as the age when you can receive it is heading towards 70.
There is no guarantee it will even be enough to live on in the future
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #163 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 11:51am
 
None of this is a barrier to you giving a straight answer Barnacle. Let's try again.

What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?

Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant. Whether you have other expenses is irrelevant.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #164 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 12:20pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 11:51am:
None of this is a barrier to you giving a straight answer Barnacle. Let's try again.

What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?

Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant. Whether you have other expenses is irrelevant.


The straight answer is that your scenarios are irrelevant to this thread. Superannuaition is all about providing an income in retirement. Neither of your scenarios provide an income.

Why are you so reluctant to say that the whole premise of this thread is to rely on the government pension?
In the whole 11 pages of this thread you haven't mention it once, and you have even danced around mentioning it when I specifically referred to it.

Superannuation is about providing an income in retirement and none of your scenarios provide an income to replace superannuation. If you have an issue with this statement please be specific and don't just give your usual vague answers
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #165 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 12:41pm
 
Quote:
The straight answer is that your scenarios are irrelevant to this thread


No they aren't. Your confusion goes to the heart of the mindless compulsion to increase super. In fact, you are the one that brought up the distinction between money earned and money saved.

Nor is it a straight answer. It is you being evasive. If you refuse to think about what you say, perhaps you shouldn't respond. Let's try again for a straight answer. Just because you are a union man doesn't mean you have to lie, right?

What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?

Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant. Whether you have other expenses is irrelevant.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #166 - Jan 23rd, 2021 at 7:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:43am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:54am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation


You are confused Barnacle. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.


But this has no relevance to superannuation which is intended to provide you with an income in retirement.
Neither of the scenarios you presented provide an income, so they are not relevant as an argument against superannuation


What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?


You're a pharken dick.

Who has a million dollar home?


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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #167 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 8:53am
 
Gnads wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 7:16pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:43am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:54am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation


You are confused Barnacle. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.


But this has no relevance to superannuation which is intended to provide you with an income in retirement.
Neither of the scenarios you presented provide an income, so they are not relevant as an argument against superannuation


What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?


You're a pharken dick.

Who has a million dollar home?




Plenty of people do. The average Sydney price is about $1 million. Try looking past your petty jealousy and you might see the point.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #168 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:02am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 25th, 2021 at 8:53am:
Gnads wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 7:16pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:43am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:54am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 9:41am:
freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 7:34pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 17th, 2021 at 11:14am:
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 10:12am:
Quote:
And how do you save anything when bank interest is under 1%?


Plenty of ways. The most obvious is to buy a house. The low interest rates actually help there. Any type of investment you can make with your superannuation you can also make directly. You get better returns, because you make about an extra 1% every year without the compliance costs of superannuation. It is easier and there are more options available.


A owner occupied house doesn't provide any income.
Whilst it's a good goal to own hour house by the time you retire, it is completely useless as a form of retirement income


It is better than income. The money you save on rent is a tax-free return on your investment.



No it's just a reduction in expenses.
You still need an income

It's also a false dichotomy
If you want a comfortable retirement it should be a goal to own your own home AND have superannuation


You are confused Barnacle. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $1 000 000 house, which you rent out for $100 000 per year, on which you pay $30 000 in tax. You pay $100 000 per year in rent.

You own a $1 000 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.


But this has no relevance to superannuation which is intended to provide you with an income in retirement.
Neither of the scenarios you presented provide an income, so they are not relevant as an argument against superannuation


What is the difference between having an extra $100 000 in income and having $100 000 fewer expenses?


You're a pharken dick.

Who has a million dollar home?




Plenty of people do. The average Sydney price is about $1 million. Try looking past your petty jealousy and you might see the point.


Jealousy has farg all to do with it.

Not every one lives in an over priced, over rated capital city nor a mega trendy coastal getaway.

I wouldn't live in either.

And I reiterate having to sell your family home and go into rental to fund your retirement is stupid.

It benefits no one except landlords like you.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #169 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:06am
 
Quote:
Jealousy has farg all to do with it.


Sure it does. It's why you completely missed the point, and why you still do not realise you have completely missed the point. The price is irrelevant to what I am saying. I could have made it one dollar or a billion dollars. I was trying to use round numbers to make it simple to understand, but I guess there is a limit to how much you can dumb this down.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #170 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:52am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:06am:
Quote:
Jealousy has farg all to do with it.


Sure it does. It's why you completely missed the point, and why you still do not realise you have completely missed the point. The price is irrelevant to what I am saying. I could have made it one dollar or a billion dollars. I was trying to use round numbers to make it simple to understand, but I guess there is a limit to how much you can dumb this down.


So then it doesn't matter where you live & what your house is worth ........

it's still a dumb & unreasonable idea to have to sell off your family home to fund your retirement & go into rental accom.

Or for that matter remain in or go back into debt because you have to remortgage your house to fund your retirement.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #171 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:59am
 
Have another try Gnads. I'm sure even you can catch up and figure out what we were talking about. I have deleted a zero from the end so it doesn't trigger your jealousy. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $100 000 house, which you rent out for $10 000 per year, on which you pay $3000 in tax. You pay $10 000 per year in rent.

You own a $100 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #172 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 11:14am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 25th, 2021 at 10:59am:
Have another try Gnads. I'm sure even you can catch up and figure out what we were talking about. I have deleted a zero from the end so it doesn't trigger your jealousy. Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $100 000 house, which you rent out for $10 000 per year, on which you pay $3000 in tax. You pay $10 000 per year in rent.

You own a $100 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.


And what has that to do with the benefits of having a superannuation income in retirement & also owning your own home?

You're the one with the bent against super.

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #173 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 11:54am
 
It's a way to invest your money Gnads. It should be obvious. Even when the PM announces that he will not be increasing superannuation because people would be better off having the option to pay off their home loans earlier, the rusted-on unionists cannot figure out why it is relevant, let alone give a straight answer.

Consider the following two scenarios:

You own a $100 000 house, which you rent out for $10 000 per year, on which you pay $3000 in tax. You pay $10 000 per year in rent.

You own a $100 000 house. You live in it. You pay no rent.

Which scenario is better financially? I'll give you a hint, whether you have a job is irrelevant.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #174 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 12:41pm
 
Hands up those who object to having their super increased???
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #175 - Jan 25th, 2021 at 1:13pm
 
You still think it's free money, don't you Grapps?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #176 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:08am
 
This is what you pay for if you put your money into an industry super fund:

Nation's Biggest Super Lobbyist Goes To War

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1612378338

Basically, they will take money out of your account to pay for a lobbying campaign to force you to put more of your money into super, so that they can get richer 'managing' it on your behalf, apparently in 'your' best interests.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #177 - Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:37am
 
I'm in favour of higher Super savings.

I salary sacrificed into mine as I am of the generation who had Super come in part way through their working lives. The more the merrier.  Cool

Mind you, I paid off my home loan very early and have been "debt free" for decades. Cool

I also enjoyed "free education" so had no HECS fees*. Those were the days.  Smiley

Kids today?

Blimey. It must be tough to get a home deposit together.   Sad


As for Super keeping more people off the aged pension? ... that would only succeed if little ratbags like Shorty; Bowen and Chalmers don't get to steal struggling retirees' tax returns.  Wink



* Let's not forget who brought that system into being.


Hint:

Introduction of HECS In 1989, the Hawke Labor Government began gradually re-introducing fees for university study.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #178 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:03am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:08am:
This is what you pay for if you put your money into an industry super fund:

Nation's Biggest Super Lobbyist Goes To War

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1612378338

Basically, they will take money out of your account to pay for a lobbying campaign to force you to put more of your money into super, so that they can get richer 'managing' it on your behalf, apparently in 'your' best interests.


So this is basically just another ideological attack on unions by FD. While ignoring that fact that industry super funds provide better returns than retail super funds

Quote:
A Productivity Commission inquiry report found that in the last decade, industry super funds have systematically outperformed retail funds.7 Generally speaking, industry funds are also cheaper than retail funds, since they have fewer overhead costs and no shareholders, so fees are kept relatively low.
https://www.comparethemarket.com.au/blog/money/what-you-need-to-know-about-indus...

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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #179 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:06am
 
Sure, if you think objecting to them taking your money against your will "for your own good" must be some kind of ideology.

How do industry super funds compare to retail non-super funds?
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #180 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:10am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:06am:
Sure, if you think objecting to them taking your money against your will "for your own good" must be some kind of ideology.

How do industry super funds compare to retail non-super funds?


Why don't you tell us?
The highest Term Deposit rate at the CBA is 0.4%
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #181 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:19am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:10am:
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:06am:
Sure, if you think objecting to them taking your money against your will "for your own good" must be some kind of ideology.

How do industry super funds compare to retail non-super funds?


Why don't you tell us?
The highest Term Deposit rate at the CBA is 0.4%


A CBA term deposit is not a retail managed fund. I put some money into retail managed funds in 2018. So far they are up 93% on average. I put more in last year - that is up 45% on average.

These industry super funds are not lobbying for you to put your super with them rather than with retail super funds. They are lobbying to force the government to take your money off you because you cannot be trusted to manage it yourself. They have a vested interest, because they live off it. Huge amounts of money are taken out of people's saving every year just to manage superannuation compliance costs, before you even get to paying these people to manage the investment in the conventional sense.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #182 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:29am
 
Anyone who tells you to hand over your money without thinking about what you are doing is a fool. If they try to force you to do it, they are a thief.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #183 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:33am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:19am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:10am:
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:06am:
Sure, if you think objecting to them taking your money against your will "for your own good" must be some kind of ideology.

How do industry super funds compare to retail non-super funds?


Why don't you tell us?
The highest Term Deposit rate at the CBA is 0.4%


A CBA term deposit is not a retail managed fund. I put some money into retail managed funds in 2018. So far they are up 93% on average. I put more in last year - that is up 45% on average.



I'm going to call BS on that.
According to
https://www.investsmart.com.au/managed-funds/top-funds
No fund has returned more than 30% over the past 3 years
You also forgot to mention the additional fees you are paying to shareholders of retail funds
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #184 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:37am
 
That's 30% per annum. Over 3 years, that gives you 120%.

The one at the top of your list is one of the ones I put money into in 2018 and 2020.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #185 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:48am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:37am:
That's 30% per annum. Over 3 years, that gives you 120%.

The one at the top of your list is one of the ones I put money into in 2018 and 2020.


No it isn't FD. They are "returns", not "returns per annum"
If you seriously think you have got a 93% return on your money in 3 years then I have a bridge I can sell you
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #186 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:50am
 
Maybe you should give your money to the union-run super funds.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #187 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:57am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 10:50am:
Maybe you should give your money to the union-run super funds.


Like I said. This is just ideological union bashing, and letting your emotions decide how you invest isn't recommended.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #188 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 11:00am
 
They are returns per annum barnacle. You are the one being sold a bridge, and now you are announcing to everyone how clever you are for buying it.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #189 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 11:13am
 
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #190 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 11:20am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 11:00am:
They are returns per annum barnacle. You are the one being sold a bridge, and now you are announcing to everyone how clever you are for buying it.


I still call BS that you have actually bought into it. Those manged funds are basically gambling.
Have a look at this fund also from Hyperion

https://www.eurekareport.com.au/managed-funds/fund/hyperion-managed-fund/2967

If you had bought into this fund you would have actually lost money

I don't know about you but I'm not going to risk my life savings in something like that
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #191 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 12:34pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 11:20am:
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 11:00am:
They are returns per annum barnacle. You are the one being sold a bridge, and now you are announcing to everyone how clever you are for buying it.


I still call BS that you have actually bought into it. Those manged funds are basically gambling.
Have a look at this fund also from Hyperion

https://www.eurekareport.com.au/managed-funds/fund/hyperion-managed-fund/2967

If you had bought into this fund you would have actually lost money

I don't know about you but I'm not going to risk my life savings in something like that


Why would I have bought into that one? You can see the performance prior to 2018 easily enough.

This is the nonsense the unions feed you about having better performance than retail funds "on average" (before you factor in super compliance costs). If you had to choose a manage fund, there are literally 10s of thousands to choose from. Would you rank them by performance, go to the middle of the pack where there "average" performers are, then scroll up a bit because you are satisfied with "above average"? Only a fool would do that, yet that is what their marketing campaign is almost entirely based on. They are capitalising on your ignorance, and they are trying to leverage that to force you to hand over even more of your hard earned money so they can siphon it off in management fees and "compliance costs".

They sold you a bridge, and you are so happy with this bridge that you own that you are recommending bridges to all your friends.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #192 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 5:18pm
 
The more the compulsory superannuation contributions increase, the more the returns will tend towards zero. In fact, in the worst case, the returns may be negative.

People should be able to make their own judgments on how to invest their money.

Compulsory superannuation funds enrich the management and the salespersons of those funds.

One of the reasons for the sell-off of public utilities was to create entities that could be invested in as the market was becoming awash with compulsory investment money.

Governments and superannuation fund managers will need to invent new entities or schemes to invest in if contribution rates increase.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #193 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 5:53pm
 
Quote:
Compulsory superannuation funds enrich the management and the salespersons of those funds.


It also creates a huge industry of people filling out super compliance paperwork. It comes to nearly 1% of members' funds every year.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #194 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 6:15pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 5:18pm:
The more the compulsory superannuation contributions increase, the more the returns will tend towards zero. In fact, in the worst case, the returns may be negative.

People should be able to make their own judgments on how to invest their money.

Compulsory superannuation funds enrich the management and the salespersons of those funds.

One of the reasons for the sell-off of public utilities was to create entities that could be invested in as the market was becoming awash with compulsory investment money.

Governments and superannuation fund managers will need to invent new entities or schemes to invest in if contribution rates increase.


You need to explain you premise and reasoning more than that..... HOW will such things trend towards zero, for one?

Perhaps they could grow an industry such as John Smith alluded to.... 'drought envoys'..... now WTF is that... but apparently the money's good and the perks magnificent and the work zero...... sort of like the disaster recovery manager chick at Kempsey shire who is frightened to get out of the office in case the hostiles out there in the hills attack her when she does nothing for their disaster relief..... should've employed a big and decent Boori and a big and decent Wharte man to do the same job...
(many are still homeless and living in tents etc one year later)
...two will fit into a Land Cruiser as easily as one, and they won't worry about being attacked... and I'm pretty sure those 'toxic males' would get out and do the WORK instead of holding down the seat in the office all day ...
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #195 - Feb 7th, 2021 at 6:48pm
 
Self-managed + property.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #196 - Feb 13th, 2021 at 8:44am
 
Quote:
You need to explain you premise and reasoning more than that..... HOW will such things trend towards zero, for one?


He seems to think we will run out of things to invest in.
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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #197 - Feb 27th, 2021 at 9:03am
 
Is there no limit to the unions' hypocrisy on this?

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1614370533

Quote:
Mindless Ideological Attack On The Super System


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Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #198 - Mar 30th, 2021 at 7:57am
 
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