Australian Politics Forum - the mindless compulsion to increase super

Jest

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1399
NSW South Coast
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #30 - Sep 20^th, 2020 at 4:49pm

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 4:29pm:

Jest wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 4:19pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 3:06pm:

Jest wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 12:59pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 12:05pm:

Jest wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 11:13am:

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 11:05am:

Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.

Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now. No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.

Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?

Yes undoubtedly, if I had the time and money I would love to finance an ad campaign with experts explaining why there is no doubt in the world that they can enjoy a financially comfortable retirement if the private sector is entirely removed from superannuation and their superannuation fund is managed by the Govt on the same terms as my current superannuation fund. And Ill happily tell them about my experience where I don't have to worry from day to day about what the stock market gamblers have done to my nest egg and what new fees and commissions the profiteers have decided to fleece me with today. I can tell them that the reason I dont have to worry about my fund is because its been designed to benefit me in my retirement and not to be a cash cow for those who manage it. I can also tell them that another important reason why I do so well out of it (apart from not being made to pay all those bogus commissions and fees) is because of what they call economy of scale. The more people who are in the fund the cheaper they can make the service to me. ATM there are so many Super funds, each with their own administrative units and executive managers to skim as much off the top that they can get away with so that while they holiday on a private yacht in Debrovnik each year I can look forward in 10 yrs time to my turn in that time share at that quaint little camp site on the Murray river in Albury. They give each of your kids a free floaty to use while at the park in their 3x3 metre swimming pool especially designed for the kiddies

Ah. So you would pay someone else to prove it, using taxpayers money, with great fanfare and great expense.

But you couldn't simply present the relevant facts yourself?

Yes if i had the money I would pay experts to spread the message because they will do it much better than me & I think the message is that important. All Australians have a right to be on the same Super fund as I am because all Australians work hard and deserve it. Instead Big money has got to out governments to turn super into something that enriches the finance sector instead of providing a happy comfortable retirements to its people.

Back to top

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47316 At my desk.	Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super Reply #31 - Sep 20^th, 2020 at 5:07pm Would this be like a religious message? Or would it involve some facts about the relative merits of your strategy? Would it actually be a "right", or would you look to force people to do it your way?
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 27993
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #32 - Sep 21^st, 2020 at 10:35am

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 10:04am:

Where does it come from?

There is a strong, vocal, unquestioning (and hopefully minority) view that increasing super is "necessary". The people pushing this view can never explain why it is necessary.

Here are some recent examples:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1600462845

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1597456849/5#5

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1593668457/44#44

Meanwhile, the average person is losing thousands of dollars from their savings every year just to fill out the required government paperwork. And that is before they pay for the conventional cost of managing the investment. At the same time, the government is complaining that the country cannot afford the tax breaks people get through their super.

I have a theory that this vocal minority has deluded itself into thinking that superannuation does not come out of their salary. This is because rather than being presented the same way as a tax, super is presented as being 'on top of' their base salary. So people think it is a freebie that comes out of the company profits rather than their own salary.

The company is not going to tell employees that their salary is being reduced, or they are missing out on raises, to pay for super. That would make them unpopular. Most of the well-written propaganda of course comes from the super industry itself - the people being paid billions of dollars a year to complete the government paperwork, and billions more to manage the funds. They are obviously rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the government forcing everyone to hand their money over to them. They are already hoovering up about 10% of GDP.

There is also a strong link with the unions, who appear to view super as merely another tool in salary negotiations, and to hell with the consequences for everyone else - and for their own members when the union cannot negotiate a real salary increase because employers are sending their salary to superannuation companies. Unions are probably at the pointy end of the mindless, irrational compulsion, because being mindless and irrational is their core business.

So you be an advocate for people not to have superannuation in their retirement?

And an advocate for them to be on the aged pension?

And for that pension to be increased to a better level?

Funny that it's all the Politicians that want to get their hands on superannuation funds, especially that tied up in Industry funds ......

and hand it over to their mates in the private sector ...... aka Banks. Roll Eyes

It pains them .... & obviously people like you, that people can live a good life in their retirement.

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 27993
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #33 - Sep 21^st, 2020 at 10:43am

Jasin wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 11:08am:

My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.

Union rep takes a slice? Thought you weren't in a Union?

You sure bash them enough ... just like Freediver.

There's nothing wrong with Superannuation.

It will be like a compulsory saving for when you finish & if you become unable to work -they have Accident & Illness insurance incorporated in the policy.

You won't get a pension anyways .... it's 67 now....& your Union bashing Tory mates want to push that out to 70 yrs old.

It will be just like old Eskimo culture ......

when you get too old & infirm

they throw you out onto the ice for the Polar Bears. Roll Eyes

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 27993
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #34 - Sep 21^st, 2020 at 10:44am

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 3:06pm:

Jest wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 12:59pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 12:05pm:

Jest wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 11:13am:

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 11:05am:

Can you prove any of this crap? Or do we just have to take your word for it?

Not proof that your brother in law regularly cries over the phone to you. I mean proof that the country would be better off if we all did what you suggest with our money.

All I can tell you is that Im living a comfortable retirment with no other investments but my super fund. And my wife is in the same superfund so we pool our incomes of course, and as we all know 2 live as cheaply as one.We dont worry about money and no one who looked at our accounts and assets would say that we're rich.

Would you recommend that the entire country take financial advice from someone who isn't rich and who doesn't worry about money?

Oh absolutely!! If I could convey anything to the Australian people it would be that they could have a good comfortable retirement if only they demanded that super be run NOT by private enterprise who are scammers and liars but by Govt and run in accordance with the same arrangements that my govt super fund is run now. No watered down version that the private insurance Corps pressured Govts to do because they couldn't compete.

Would you go to the effort of proving to them that they would be better off? Or is it just sufficient to reassure people that you aren't rich and don't worry much about money, so we should just take your word for it?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 3:05pm:

Jasin wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 11:08am:

My Boss is about to give me my pay.
Then a Union Rep takes a slice followed by a Super Rep who takes another slice. The Govt has already taken their slice. So I'm left with less than half of what I was originally going to get.

So you voluntarily joined a Union? Stop whining then....

Perhaps he is in one of those workplaces where people who don't join the union have unfortunate accidents.

The union comes to the rescue of course.

Quote:

And of course now private funds will tell you how they have out performed this fund or that fund but do those profits find their way to the members. I personally doubt it.

Of course it does. All fund performances - government and private - are quoted in terms of the end result for the customer. I do not recall ever seeing performance quoted prior to fees etc being taken out. It's the same with regular managed funds.

Idiot

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 27993 Gender:	Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super Reply #35 - Sep 21^st, 2020 at 10:48am Jasin wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 4:27pm: Well I'm going to change to a Government Super. Anyone can join QSuper now...... you can rollover your Super into any fund you want to now. Most Industry Superannuation Funds are doing well ...... that's why the private sector wants them.
Back to top	Industry_Super.jpg (12 KB \| 20 ) "When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais IP Logged

Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 27993 Gender:	Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super Reply #36 - Sep 21^st, 2020 at 10:50am rhino wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 4:33pm: Jasin wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 4:27pm: Well I'm going to change to a Government Super. you will need a government job first, you can stand in the queue behind the 3 million Indian immigrants doing the same. Incorrect
Back to top	"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47316
At my desk.

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #37 - Oct 3^rd, 2020 at 9:11am

Gnads wrote on Sep 21^st, 2020 at 10:35am:

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2020 at 10:04am:

Where does it come from?

There is a strong, vocal, unquestioning (and hopefully minority) view that increasing super is "necessary". The people pushing this view can never explain why it is necessary.

Here are some recent examples:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1600462845

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1597456849/5#5

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1593668457/44#44

Meanwhile, the average person is losing thousands of dollars from their savings every year just to fill out the required government paperwork. And that is before they pay for the conventional cost of managing the investment. At the same time, the government is complaining that the country cannot afford the tax breaks people get through their super.

I have a theory that this vocal minority has deluded itself into thinking that superannuation does not come out of their salary. This is because rather than being presented the same way as a tax, super is presented as being 'on top of' their base salary. So people think it is a freebie that comes out of the company profits rather than their own salary.

The company is not going to tell employees that their salary is being reduced, or they are missing out on raises, to pay for super. That would make them unpopular. Most of the well-written propaganda of course comes from the super industry itself - the people being paid billions of dollars a year to complete the government paperwork, and billions more to manage the funds. They are obviously rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the government forcing everyone to hand their money over to them. They are already hoovering up about 10% of GDP.

There is also a strong link with the unions, who appear to view super as merely another tool in salary negotiations, and to hell with the consequences for everyone else - and for their own members when the union cannot negotiate a real salary increase because employers are sending their salary to superannuation companies. Unions are probably at the pointy end of the mindless, irrational compulsion, because being mindless and irrational is their core business.

So you be an advocate for people not to have superannuation in their retirement?

Wrong. I think people should have far more super. I just think the government should not be forcing people to give thousands of dollars out of their savings every year to this industry that is now demanding even more.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Belgarion

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5310
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #38 - Oct 3^rd, 2020 at 11:26am

I have been a member of government superannuation funds since I was 16, long before it became fashionable or compulsory for most of the population. When the opportunity came I paid in more than the minimum, not enough to leave me short each fortnight, but enough to make a bit of difference over the years.

Eventually I was able to retire early and live on my superannuation income. I'm not rich by any means, but I have enough for my needs and for most things I could reasonably want.

So yes, I am a fan of superannuation, but not the private for profit funds who are ripping off their members outrageously.

Back to top

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

IP Logged

Mix_Master

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 999
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #39 - Oct 6^th, 2020 at 7:43am

Belgarion wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2020 at 11:26am:

I have been a member of government superannuation funds since I was 16, long before it became fashionable or compulsory for most of the population. When the opportunity came I paid in more than the minimum, not enough to leave me short each fortnight, but enough to make a bit of difference over the years.

Eventually I was able to retire early and live on my superannuation income. I'm not rich by any means, but I have enough for my needs and for most things I could reasonably want.

So yes, I am a fan of superannuation, but not the private for profit funds who are ripping off their members outrageously.

Good for you. (I mean that, genuinely).

For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.

Oh, and some (many?) Industry Funds also do what is referred to as "SMSF-Lite", where you can allocate a portion of the funds they hold for you, and invest it how you please (obviously with certain limits...you can't, for example, invest in certain "cash crops"...)

Plenty of people who are ideologically opposed to Super generally, and Industry Funds specifically, it would seem. Few of them are seemingly able to argue a cogent case for a "better" solution.

All too easy to say "This is sh*t", without actually articulating how they would do it better...

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47316 At my desk.	Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super Reply #40 - Oct 6^th, 2020 at 8:05pm Quote: For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that. SMSF's are not free either.
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 27993
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #41 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 9:13am

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2020 at 8:05pm:

Quote:

For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.

SMSF's are not free either.

And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

Jest

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1399
NSW South Coast
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #42 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 9:40am

In the Early 90s the Federal Govt decided to overhaul the Public Service Super scheme to more closely mimic the private enterprise model (designed to provide a cash cow for the managers of the Super Funds rather than for the benefit of its retiree members). So the Govt put on all these "information sessions" to extol the virtues of the new scheme and to convince us to sign over to it. Unfortunately a few were sucked in (but not a lot) and the one person I know who did has often told me how much he regrets it.

But this is the interesting part. Most of the BS rhetoric I remember them using to convince us to sign over is the same BS rhetoric FD uses here. And the one that most rails with me is the "you get a free choice" as if that's worth sh*t. Yeah right, you get the free choice to shoot yourself in the foot. Knock yourself out.

There are many things that private enterprise has no business being involved in because its drive for self enrichment defeats the purpose and Superannuation is one of them, health another, education another, power and electricity and water and roads and communications are others. Because of economies of scale, these things are done more cheaply and efficiently and can be managed to operate more honestly if they are in public hands. Its as obvious as the noses on our faces.

Back to top

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47316
At my desk.

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #43 - Oct 7^th, 2020 at 6:12pm

Gnads wrote on Oct 7^th, 2020 at 9:13am:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2020 at 8:05pm:

Quote:

For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.

SMSF's are not free either.

And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.

Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 27993
Gender: male

Re: the mindless compulsion to increase super
Reply #44 - Oct 9^th, 2020 at 8:33am

freediver wrote on Oct 7^th, 2020 at 6:12pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 7^th, 2020 at 9:13am:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2020 at 8:05pm:

Quote:

For those advocating "freedom of choice" in Super, it is already there. "If" one is happy to accept the investment risk (and the compliance costs involved), one can always set up an SMSF, and have their Super put into that.

SMSF's are not free either.

And corporate superfunds are less free than Industry funds ......

that they want control over.

And like you they can GGF.

Are you saying you want to compel others to invest their savings the same way you chose to?

No...... you are.

I'm saying that the LNP govt & the private sector shouldn't be allowed to get their hands on a monopoly of superannuation business & close down Industry super funds.

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged