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If Capitalism is so great........ (Read 3087 times)
The_Barnacle
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If Capitalism is so great........
Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am
 
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years
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Dnarever
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #1 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:33am
 
Shhhh:

Corporate socialism is great, as long as it does not benefit the people it is all ok ?
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Ajax
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #2 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:37am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


The oligarchy want to manipulate capitalism while the rest of us live under communist laws.

I say bring back Keynesian capitalism and away with this neo-liberalism that is strangling the people in this world.
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whiteknight
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #3 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:56am
 
Capitalism: A Love Story   Smiley
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capitalism: A Love Story is a 2009 American documentary film directed, written by, and starring Michael Moore. The film centers on the late-2000s financial crisis and the recovery stimulus, while putting forward an indictment of the then-current economic order in the United States and of unfettered capitalism in general. Topics covered include Wall Street's "casino mentality", for-profit prisons, Goldman Sachs' influence in Washington, D.C., the poverty-level wages of many workers, the large wave of home foreclosures, corporate-owned life insurance, and the consequences of "runaway greed".[3] The film also features a religious component in which Moore examines whether or not capitalism is a sin and whether Jesus would be a capitalist;[4] this component highlights Moore's belief that evangelical conservatives contradict themselves by supporting free market ideals while professing to be Christians.

The film was widely released to the public in the United States and Canada on October 2, 2009. Reviews were generally positive. It was released on DVD and Blu-ray on March 9, 2010.
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Frank
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #4 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?


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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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Dnarever
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #5 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:22pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




If you look at the US they recently threw 2 trillion dollars of socialist support to bail out big business and the failed market. They took it from tax payer's money but did virtually nothing for the tax payers - no socialist support for the average person, just corporate socialism.
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The_Barnacle
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #6 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 1:14pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:22pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




If you look at the US they recently threw 2 trillion dollars of socialist support to bail out big business and the failed market. They took it from tax payer's money but did virtually nothing for the tax payers - no socialist support for the average person, just corporate socialism.


That corporatism 101.
Capitalise your profits but socialise your losses
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Jest
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #7 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 1:17pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?



Its from the money the Govt already holds on behalf of all the people or its printed and all the people (except those bailed out) pay for it after the crisis is over. Either way its the socialist solution that capitalism uses whenever it gets to that time in its cycle when it dies and the rich bring back the corps so that they can remain at the top of the tree.

Dont be fooled, co-operation not competition is what accounts for 99% of human achievement. Its what built the pyramids and sent man to the Moon.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Jest
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #8 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 1:26pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 1:14pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:22pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




If you look at the US they recently threw 2 trillion dollars of socialist support to bail out big business and the failed market. They took it from tax payer's money but did virtually nothing for the tax payers - no socialist support for the average person, just corporate socialism.


That corporatism 101.
Capitalise your profits but socialise your losses


"Corporatism" is the term capitalists use to pretend that what we're going through is not capitalism but an abomination of it. No its not. Its what Capitalism is. Corporatism is spawned by capitalism just as surely as wheat seeds spawn wheat. Its all part of the capitalist growth cycle.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Jest
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #9 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 1:52pm
 
Ajax wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:37am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


The oligarchy want to manipulate capitalism while the rest of us live under communist laws.

I say bring back Keynesian capitalism and away with this neo-liberalism that is strangling the people in this world.


Im not a Communist or Marxist but its funny how everything we don't like equals Communism or Marxism now. 
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« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2020 at 3:10pm by Jest »  

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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aquascoot
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #10 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 4:15pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:22pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




If you look at the US they recently threw 2 trillion dollars of socialist support to bail out big business and the failed market. They took it from tax payer's money but did virtually nothing for the tax payers - no socialist support for the average person, just corporate socialism.



Obama and pelosi
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #11 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again


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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #12 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:29pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 4:15pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:22pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




If you look at the US they recently threw 2 trillion dollars of socialist support to bail out big business and the failed market. They took it from tax payer's money but did virtually nothing for the tax payers - no socialist support for the average person, just corporate socialism.



Obama and pelosi

Yeah that's right. That's what we've been saying. You ever heard of Good Cop, Bad Cop? They play for the same team only the Good Cop pretends he's on your side. That's what's happening in every so called Modern Democracy in the developed world. AustralianLabor/UKLabour/Democrats. They just pretend but offer no real alternative. Its all about convincing us we have a choice when we don't.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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freediver
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #13 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:01pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It's Keynesianism, not socialism.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #14 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It's Keynesianism, not socialism.


I wouldn't have thought so. Keynes would be giving the money to those that would grease the wheels and make the blood of the economy flow. The whole reason we have a market economy is the spending power of the many, not the few, that's what makes it tick over.
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Ajax
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #15 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It's Keynesianism, not socialism.


From 1945 to 1980's we had Keynesian capitalism here in Australia and most of the west.

Were we a communist nation during all that time.

Wake up and smell the CO2 FD, you are one of the most brain washed individuals I have ever come across.

Keynesian capitalism puts the state first and above Corporatism, that's why we had public assets back then and now under the neo-liberalism given to us by the Hawke government all our pubic assets are in the hands of a few greedy men.

You really do make a good foot soldier champ.... Wink Cheesy
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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Jest
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #16 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:53pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again



So please are you saying that if we let capitalism run its course, without giving the bankrupt (ie dead) financial institutions any bail out money the economy would come back to life.

If you are saying that, how long do you think that would take to get back to pre crisis levels. Think about the GFC when they were talking about institutions "Too Big To fail" (meaning for the social good - ie Socialism- we can't let them fail). How long? Take a guess and please be realistic & dont start at anything less than decades. With all those major institutions collapsing in every country one after the other, each dependent on each other, the economy would be starting from almost scratch. Thats why they had to inject the people's money. It wasn't a choice. For them it was a necessity or else every nation on earth would have collapsed under the pressure of people carrying pitchforks demanding that those whose greed cause the crisis be brought to justice. Do you really think our nation states would have survived more than a week or two, let alone decades if the Govts of the world didn't bring those banks and financial institutions back to life quick smart?   
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #17 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #18 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 9:23pm
 
Setanta wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:43pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It's Keynesianism, not socialism.


I wouldn't have thought so. Keynes would be giving the money to those that would grease the wheels and make the blood of the economy flow. The whole reason we have a market economy is the spending power of the many, not the few, that's what makes it tick over.


The actions being taken by the reserve bank - effectively printing money now, and jacking up interest rates prior to the GFC - are textbook Keynes.

Ajax wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:33pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It's Keynesianism, not socialism.


From 1945 to 1980's we had Keynesian capitalism here in Australia and most of the west.

Were we a communist nation during all that time.

Wake up and smell the CO2 FD, you are one of the most brain washed individuals I have ever come across.

Keynesian capitalism puts the state first and above Corporatism, that's why we had public assets back then and now under the neo-liberalism given to us by the Hawke government all our pubic assets are in the hands of a few greedy men.

You really do make a good foot soldier champ.... Wink Cheesy


Are you trying to disagree with me on something?
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Bobby.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #19 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 9:27pm
 
Ajax wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:33pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 6:01pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It's Keynesianism, not socialism.


From 1945 to 1980's we had Keynesian capitalism here in Australia and most of the west.

Were we a communist nation during all that time.

Wake up and smell the CO2 FD, you are one of the most brain washed individuals I have ever come across.

Keynesian capitalism puts the state first and above Corporatism, that's why we had public assets back then and now under the neo-liberalism given to us by the Hawke government all our pubic assets are in the hands of a few greedy men.

You really do make a good foot soldier champ.... Wink Cheesy



We are still a one party communist state.

Marx defined the proletariat as the social class having no significant ownership of the means of production (factories, machines, land, mines, buildings, vehicles) and whose only means of subsistence is to sell their labor power for a wage or salary.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #20 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 9:30pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Capitalism says let it fail if it isn't good enough.

Socialism happens when the state pays the cost for the good.

Your logic is justification not mitigation.


And by the way they are letting small business and people go down the drain they will have none of that socialist crap here.
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Bias_2012
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #21 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:06pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:53pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again



So please are you saying that if we let capitalism run its course, without giving the bankrupt (ie dead) financial institutions any bail out money the economy would come back to life.

If you are saying that, how long do you think that would take to get back to pre crisis levels. Think about the GFC when they were talking about institutions "Too Big To fail" (meaning for the social good - ie Socialism- we can't let them fail). How long? Take a guess and please be realistic & dont start at anything less than decades. With all those major institutions collapsing in every country one after the other, each dependent on each other, the economy would be starting from almost scratch. Thats why they had to inject the people's money. It wasn't a choice. For them it was a necessity or else every nation on earth would have collapsed under the pressure of people carrying pitchforks demanding that those whose greed cause the crisis be brought to justice. Do you really think our nation states would have survived more than a week or two, let alone decades if the Govts of the world didn't bring those banks and financial institutions back to life quick smart?   


Crikey I've touched a nerve

I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating some facts
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Bias_2012
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #22 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism has it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money
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« Last Edit: Sep 14th, 2020 at 9:30am by Bias_2012 »  

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #23 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:12pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:53pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again



So please are you saying that if we let capitalism run its course, without giving the bankrupt (ie dead) financial institutions any bail out money the economy would come back to life.

If you are saying that, how long do you think that would take to get back to pre crisis levels. Think about the GFC when they were talking about institutions "Too Big To fail" (meaning for the social good - ie Socialism- we can't let them fail). How long? Take a guess and please be realistic & dont start at anything less than decades. With all those major institutions collapsing in every country one after the other, each dependent on each other, the economy would be starting from almost scratch. Thats why they had to inject the people's money. It wasn't a choice. For them it was a necessity or else every nation on earth would have collapsed under the pressure of people carrying pitchforks demanding that those whose greed cause the crisis be brought to justice. Do you really think our nation states would have survived more than a week or two, let alone decades if the Govts of the world didn't bring those banks and financial institutions back to life quick smart?   


Crikey I've touched a nerve

I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating some facts

How did you touch a nerve? I asked you a question for clarification. So are you going to answer?
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #24 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:16pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism have it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money

This reply is not stating a fact or an opinion. Its fantasy!
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #25 - Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:30pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:12pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:53pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again



So please are you saying that if we let capitalism run its course, without giving the bankrupt (ie dead) financial institutions any bail out money the economy would come back to life.

If you are saying that, how long do you think that would take to get back to pre crisis levels. Think about the GFC when they were talking about institutions "Too Big To fail" (meaning for the social good - ie Socialism- we can't let them fail). How long? Take a guess and please be realistic & dont start at anything less than decades. With all those major institutions collapsing in every country one after the other, each dependent on each other, the economy would be starting from almost scratch. Thats why they had to inject the people's money. It wasn't a choice. For them it was a necessity or else every nation on earth would have collapsed under the pressure of people carrying pitchforks demanding that those whose greed cause the crisis be brought to justice. Do you really think our nation states would have survived more than a week or two, let alone decades if the Govts of the world didn't bring those banks and financial institutions back to life quick smart?   


Crikey I've touched a nerve

I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating some facts

How did you touch a nerve? I asked you a question for clarification. So are you going to answer?


I've already said - it takes longer than if bailouts were offered and used

I'm not arguing that capitalism is great or not. I'm saying that capitalism doesn't need bailouts to survive. Some companies fail, some succeed, but capitalism just keeps going by it's own momentum, if it's allowed to
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #26 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 12:19am
 
No problem - if businesses don't need bailouts, next time there will be none and we'll let nature take its course.

Even the stimulus payments over corona were to keep the economy = businesses and exchange of money - flowing... these could be classified as bailouts.

Setanta got it right when he said that a viable economy relies on the majority spending and having the means to spend.... never more clearly stated by the 'conservatives' than with ScomoCash 2020.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #27 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 2:54am
 
Noone 'escapes' the USA and 'flees' to cuba, china or russia
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #28 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 3:04am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 2:54am:
Noone 'escapes' the USA and 'flees' to cuba, china or russia



You mean like Edward Snowden
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #29 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 6:53am
 
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




Taxes....... but not so much corporate tax  Wink ey?

Or they borrow it on the PAYG tax payer tab.

And the Reserve Bank just print it

how much was printed used to be based on our gold reserves

If you or I printed it without collateral support....

we go to jail.  Wink
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #30 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 7:02am
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism have it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Ohhhhhh please spare me  Roll Eyes
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #31 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 8:48am
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:30pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:12pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:53pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again



So please are you saying that if we let capitalism run its course, without giving the bankrupt (ie dead) financial institutions any bail out money the economy would come back to life.

If you are saying that, how long do you think that would take to get back to pre crisis levels. Think about the GFC when they were talking about institutions "Too Big To fail" (meaning for the social good - ie Socialism- we can't let them fail). How long? Take a guess and please be realistic & dont start at anything less than decades. With all those major institutions collapsing in every country one after the other, each dependent on each other, the economy would be starting from almost scratch. Thats why they had to inject the people's money. It wasn't a choice. For them it was a necessity or else every nation on earth would have collapsed under the pressure of people carrying pitchforks demanding that those whose greed cause the crisis be brought to justice. Do you really think our nation states would have survived more than a week or two, let alone decades if the Govts of the world didn't bring those banks and financial institutions back to life quick smart?   


Crikey I've touched a nerve

I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating some facts

How did you touch a nerve? I asked you a question for clarification. So are you going to answer?


I've already said - it takes longer than if bailouts were offered and used

I'm not arguing that capitalism is great or not. I'm saying that capitalism doesn't need bailouts to survive. Some companies fail, some succeed, but capitalism just keeps going by it's own momentum, if it's allowed to

Yes I understand but how much longer? That's the crucial question you need to answer b/c your response suggests that there's not much in it time wise when in reality that's far from the truth IMO. Again, consider the GFC. Every Bank and every Financial institution in every country, interlocked with each other depending on the other to pay them the money they're owed so that they can pay the money they owe. And thats just a very small segment of the Financial sector, not to mention the businesses, big, small and multinational, in hock to their necks, not even able to pay the next weeks wages let alone all their other bills, including the money they owed to the banks.

Every country on Earth knew that it was not an option not to inject taxpayer money (or print money and get the taxpayer to pay it back later) because it would take the world decades to recover. And they also knew that people wouldn't wait weeks let alone decades before they took matters into their own hands.   

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #32 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 8:51am
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 7:02am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism have it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Ohhhhhh please spare me  Roll Eyes
Yes! How could anyone really believe this?
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #33 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 9:43am
 
Jest wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 8:51am:
Gnads wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 7:02am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism have it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Ohhhhhh please spare me  Roll Eyes
Yes! How could anyone really believe this?



Dunno what you blokes are going on about. Not every bank wanted bailout money


https://scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/25/banks-forced-to-take-bailout/

and ...

https://money.cnn.com/2009/09/11/markets/thebuzz/index.htm
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #34 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 10:05am
 
... and conversely not every bank knocked back bailout money........

So now because the little guys who weren't in the 'exposed' markets, and didn't NEED bailout are supposed to be proof that the majority of big dollar holders did, and thus the bailouts were not needed at all?

Interesting.... you need to work in a hospital distributing the blood donations to patients... no need for a blood bank at all then ....

Downe at Ye Olde Hospitale Bluid Banke:-

"Harry -  that patient with the broken legs won't need any blood today."

"OK - so that means the guy who attempted seppuku doesn't need any either - I'll cancel the order."
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #35 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 1:09pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 9:43am:
Jest wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 8:51am:
Gnads wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 7:02am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism have it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Ohhhhhh please spare me  Roll Eyes
Yes! How could anyone really believe this?



Dunno what you blokes are going on about. Not every bank wanted bailout money


https://scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/25/banks-forced-to-take-bailout/

and ...

https://money.cnn.com/2009/09/11/markets/thebuzz/index.htm


There is a big difference b/w being forced to take bailout money and being offered but refusing to take bailout money.The second article makes it clear that Banks could and some did refuse the bailout money (because it came with an interest cost and they felt able to weather the storm) and these were mainly small local banks and some middling sized banks (which I assume were commercial not the financial banks that dabbled into derivatives and share trading). If you read the first article closely you will also see that it's implicit that if the banks chose they could refuse the bailout money. This article puts their reluctance to take the money down to not wanting to be stigmatized by the treasury (whatever that means) but I think if I was a bank with lots of nervous customers at that time, I would also be saying "We dont need the money, our bank is strong but hey, if you insist!". A lot of that went down Im sure.   
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #36 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:38pm
 

Quote:
........During a state visit to the US in 1989, former Russian president Boris Yeltsin made an unscheduled stop at a Randall’s grocery. When he saw the abundance of produce on offer he was astounded. In his autobiography, Yeltsin wrote:

When I saw those shelves crammed with hundreds, thousands of cans, cartons and goods of every possible sort, for the first time I felt quite frankly sick with despair for the Soviet people. That such a potentially super-rich country as ours has been brought to a state of such poverty! It is terrible to think of it.

Two years later, Yeltsin left the Communist Party and began a reform process that would see him become the first democratically elected Russian leader and preside over the demise of the Soviet Union.

The centrally planned communist Soviet economy based on the Marxist Labour Theory of Value, simply could not compete with the abundance that we take for granted in modern capitalist societies. ..........


https://quillette.com/2018/03/01/capitalism-ever-done-us/
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #37 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:40pm
 
...
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #38 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:42pm
 
Quote:
........6. Creative destruction

J. Schumpeter argued a powerful influence in capitalism was the idea of ‘creative destruction’. If firms become inefficient and outdated, they go out of business. This leads to short-term problems – unemployment. However, it allows resources – capital and labour to shift to new, more innovative and efficient industries.   ...........


https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1259/economics/advantages-of-capitalism/
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #39 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm
 
...

Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #40 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 6:03pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 8:48am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:30pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:12pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:06pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 7:53pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again



So please are you saying that if we let capitalism run its course, without giving the bankrupt (ie dead) financial institutions any bail out money the economy would come back to life.

If you are saying that, how long do you think that would take to get back to pre crisis levels. Think about the GFC when they were talking about institutions "Too Big To fail" (meaning for the social good - ie Socialism- we can't let them fail). How long? Take a guess and please be realistic & dont start at anything less than decades. With all those major institutions collapsing in every country one after the other, each dependent on each other, the economy would be starting from almost scratch. Thats why they had to inject the people's money. It wasn't a choice. For them it was a necessity or else every nation on earth would have collapsed under the pressure of people carrying pitchforks demanding that those whose greed cause the crisis be brought to justice. Do you really think our nation states would have survived more than a week or two, let alone decades if the Govts of the world didn't bring those banks and financial institutions back to life quick smart?   


Crikey I've touched a nerve

I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating some facts

How did you touch a nerve? I asked you a question for clarification. So are you going to answer?


I've already said - it takes longer than if bailouts were offered and used

I'm not arguing that capitalism is great or not. I'm saying that capitalism doesn't need bailouts to survive. Some companies fail, some succeed, but capitalism just keeps going by it's own momentum, if it's allowed to

Yes I understand but how much longer? That's the crucial question you need to answer b/c your response suggests that there's not much in it time wise when in reality that's far from the truth IMO. Again, consider the GFC. Every Bank and every Financial institution in every country, interlocked with each other depending on the other to pay them the money they're owed so that they can pay the money they owe. And thats just a very small segment of the Financial sector, not to mention the businesses, big, small and multinational, in hock to their necks, not even able to pay the next weeks wages let alone all their other bills, including the money they owed to the banks.

Every country on Earth knew that it was not an option not to inject taxpayer money (or print money and get the taxpayer to pay it back later) because it would take the world decades to recover. And they also knew that people wouldn't wait weeks let alone decades before they took matters into their own hands.   



They are not dependent on each other. They are trying to send each other bankrupt.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #41 - Sep 14th, 2020 at 6:08pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 9:43am:
Jest wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 8:51am:
Gnads wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 7:02am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 10:17pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 8:26pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 5:24pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years


It doesn't need socialism to bail it out. I gets bailouts because politicians want minimal unemployment, so it's to save jobs and keep money circulating. Bailouts can achieve this in a shorter time than waiting for the near collapsed businesses to build up a again




Ah - so it does need bailouts.. thanks....


No, only the politicians think it needs bailouts. Capitalism have it's own way of repairing itself, but it's just not quick enough for the socialist politicians, so they offer public money to help keep the economy going, even if the companies don't want the money


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Ohhhhhh please spare me  Roll Eyes
Yes! How could anyone really believe this?



Dunno what you blokes are going on about. Not every bank wanted bailout money


https://scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/25/banks-forced-to-take-bailout/

and ...

https://money.cnn.com/2009/09/11/markets/thebuzz/index.htm


So it's only banks now?

Besides in the GFC most of the big banks in the US- your Bear Sterns, Lehmann Brothers, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, took taxpayer bailout money & paid it out to their executives.


Read the lists as to who got bailout money in the US -   Grin

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list


https://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/bankbailout/

The GFC was caused by unchecked rabid capitalistic fraud & greed but the bastards all took the socialism & taxpayer bailouts ..... all these corporations that spend millions to avoid paying tax.

The hypocrisy is monumentally large.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #42 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #43 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #44 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:15pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 4:15pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:22pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 12:18pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:19am:
.......why does it need socialism to bail it out every 10 years

Where does this supposed 'socialism' get the bailout money from?




If you look at the US they recently threw 2 trillion dollars of socialist support to bail out big business and the failed market. They took it from tax payer's money but did virtually nothing for the tax payers - no socialist support for the average person, just corporate socialism.



Obama and pelosi


Yes 2 names ?

A little different.

Pelosi is a corporate democrat financed and owned by big business, Obama too but not as bad.

Particularly Pelosi isn't politically left at all. Obama is around the centre mark of a centre right political party.

I really don't know what you were trying to say but I bet it wasn't clever.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #45 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:20pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.




It seems to work in the US ?

Capitalism only survives when socialism bails it out every decade or so. In fact every time that capitalism gets itself into trouble.

Capitalism seems to be at its best just after socialism bails it out and stays strong again till capitalism fails. Every time the going gets tough the US turn to social policy for the wealthy. 
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #46 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 8:21pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.



Your entirely wrong and your cold war propaganda wont make you right. The Chinese have endured famine for their whole history including their pre WW2 capitalist history exacerbated by the fact that their population is huge. Even in small countries like Ireland under British rule (Britain being the most developed capitalist country of the day) saw over a million people die from starvation during the potato blight.

And this is what Wikipedia says about india "Famine had been a recurrent feature of life the Indian sub-continental countries of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, most notoriously during British rule. Famines in India resulted in more than 60 million deaths over the course of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Famines in British India were severe enough to have a substantial impact on the long-term population growth of the country in the 19th and early 20th centuries." . And in America I see there are claims that 7 million people died of starvation during the Great Depression and one of your so called "Think Tanks" say "No, no it wasn't starvation but malnutrition". Really? Im sure they don't make that distinction when they give us their China numbers. 

I have no doubt that mistakes and bad judgments were made along the way in Britain, China (eg the Great Leap forward, though that was not the only reason but the propaganda machine pretends it was), India and the rest of the Capitalist/Socialist world. Is it the fault of the respective systems. Well you'll get a different answer depending on which ideology they're pushing. The other thing you have to remember is that China didnt start developing until after WW2 when socialism developed the country and underdeveloped countries are a lot more vulnerable to famine esp when they have huge populations like China and India).   

China is where China is (overtaking America in prosperity) because of socialism. Thats because a planned economy works much better than a haphazard, shot in the dark market economy riddled by continuous boom and bust cycles. Of course once the Country started getting rich those in the party decided that an easing of socialist principles (Communism with Chinese characteristics) was a good thing because it made Party officials Rich. But most of china's infrastructure and facilities are still Govt owned and run. India, like Australia, went through a process of private enterprise plundering the richest and best Public Assets in the 90s but there's no denying (though you will deny it) that it was the public sector that put the Australian and Indian economies on their feet in the first place (Esp India)
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #47 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:23pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:20pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.




It seems to work in the US ?

Capitalism only survives when socialism bails it out every decade or so. In fact every time that capitalism gets itself into trouble.

Capitalism seems to be at its best just after socialism bails it out and stays strong again till capitalism fails. Every time the going gets tough the US turn to social policy for the wealthy. 

Duckie, you are confusing government intervention with socialism.

That's  how ignorant you are.  Not surprising from a mere duck, of course. Do you poo as you waddle? Don't  answer that.

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #48 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 8:21pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.



Your entirely wrong and your cold war propaganda wont make you right. The Chinese have endured famine for their whole history including their pre WW2 capitalist history exacerbated by the fact that their population is huge. Even in small countries like Ireland under British rule (Britain being the most developed capitalist country of the day) saw over a million people die from starvation during the potato blight.

And this is what Wikipedia says about india "Famine had been a recurrent feature of life the Indian sub-continental countries of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, most notoriously during British rule. Famines in India resulted in more than 60 million deaths over the course of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Famines in British India were severe enough to have a substantial impact on the long-term population growth of the country in the 19th and early 20th centuries." . And in America I see there are claims that 7 million people died of starvation during the Great Depression and one of your so called "Think Tanks" say "No, no it wasn't starvation but malnutrition". Really? Im sure they don't make that distinction when they give us their China numbers. 

I have no doubt that mistakes and bad judgments were made along the way in Britain, China (eg the Great Leap forward, though that was not the only reason but the propaganda machine pretends it was), India and the rest of the Capitalist/Socialist world. Is it the fault of the respective systems. Well you'll get a different answer depending on which ideology they're pushing. The other thing you have to remember is that China didnt start developing until after WW2 when socialism developed the country and underdeveloped countries are a lot more vulnerable to famine esp when they have huge populations like China and India).   

China is where China is (overtaking America in prosperity) because of socialism. Thats because a planned economy works much better than a haphazard, shot in the dark market economy riddled by continuous boom and bust cycles. Of course once the Country started getting rich those in the party decided that an easing of socialist principles (Communism with Chinese characteristics) was a good thing because it made Party officials Rich. But most of china's infrastructure and facilities are still Govt owned and run. India, like Australia, went through a process of private enterprise plundering the richest and best Public Assets in the 90s but there's no denying (though you will deny it) that it was the public sector that put the Australian and Indian economies on their feet in the first place (Esp India)      

Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #49 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #50 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:51pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



So what is a nonsocialist country then?  If Australia is a socialist country then all western countries are socialist. We are all China and north korea and cuba. No diff.  But you are an idiot, Dewek, you ALWAYS lurch for the stupid equivocation, the spineless idiocy.


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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #51 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:04pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 8:21pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
[quote author=Jest link=1599959981/42#42 date=1600229423][quote author=sprintcyclist link=1599959981/39#39 date=1600069485]

[quote]

The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.



Your entirely wrong and your cold war propaganda wont make you right. The Chinese have endured famine for their whole history including their pre WW2 capitalist history exacerbated by the fact that their population is huge. Even in small countries like Ireland under British rule (Britain being the most developed capitalist country of the day) saw over a million people die from starvation during the potato blight.

And this is what Wikipedia says about india "Famine had been a recurrent feature of life the Indian sub-continental countries of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, most notoriously during British rule. Famines in India resulted in more than 60 million deaths over the course of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Famines in British India were severe enough to have a substantial impact on the long-term population growth of the country in the 19th and early 20th centuries." . And in America I see there are claims that 7 million people died of starvation during the Great Depression and one of your so called "Think Tanks" say "No, no it wasn't starvation but malnutrition". Really? Im sure they don't make that distinction when they give us their China numbers. 

I have no doubt that mistakes and bad judgments were made along the way in Britain, China (eg the Great Leap forward, though that was not the only reason but the propaganda machine pretends it was), India and the rest of the Capitalist/Socialist world. Is it the fault of the respective systems. Well you'll get a different answer depending on which ideology they're pushing. The other thing you have to remember is that China didnt start developing until after WW2 when socialism developed the country and underdeveloped countries are a lot more vulnerable to famine esp when they have huge populations like China and India).   

China is where China is (overtaking America in prosperity) because of socialism. Thats because a planned economy works much better than a haphazard, shot in the dark market economy riddled by continuous boom and bust cycles. Of course once the Country started getting rich those in the party decided that an easing of socialist principles (Communism with Chinese characteristics) was a good thing because it made Party officials Rich. But most of china's infrastructure and facilities are still Govt owned and run. India, like Australia, went through a process of private enterprise plundering the richest and best Public Assets in the 90s but there's no denying (though you will deny it) that it was the public sector that put the Australian and Indian economies on their feet in the first place (Esp India)      


You didnt answer my first post. Just made a few old cold war assertions. But I answered your reply anyway so now you got 2 of my posts (which clearly address your claims) to respond to. Thats OK Ill wait!
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #52 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:09pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:23pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:20pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.




It seems to work in the US ?

Capitalism only survives when socialism bails it out every decade or so. In fact every time that capitalism gets itself into trouble.

Capitalism seems to be at its best just after socialism bails it out and stays strong again till capitalism fails. Every time the going gets tough the US turn to social policy for the wealthy. 

Duckie, you are confusing government intervention with socialism.

That's  how ignorant you are.  Not surprising from a mere duck, of course. Do you poo as you waddle? Don't  answer that.


You know it is possible to have these discussions without being abusive. Why dont you give it a try. It will be a lot more pleasant and we might find that we actually have a useful and informative discussion with some common ground.
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #53 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:35pm
 
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:09pm:
..............  You know it is possible to have these discussions without being abusive. Why dont you give it a try. It will be a lot more pleasant and we might find that we actually have a useful and informative discussion with some common ground.   


That would be a pleasant change
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #54 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:04pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:51pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So what is a nonsocialist country then?  If Australia is a socialist country then all western countries are socialist. We are all China and north korea and cuba. No diff.  But you are an idiot, Dewek, you ALWAYS lurch for the stupid equivocation, the spineless idiocy.


Australia used to, until the election of the Hawke/Keating Governments, the second or third most socialist country in the world, Soren.  Under Hawke/Keating we saw a sudden lurch towards the right unfortunately.  You appear not to understand that Medicare, public hospitals, schools, roads, bridges, etc. are all aspects of that socialism.   Your antipathy towards me blinds you to the reality of the country you live in.  Your own hated of anything that is marked "socialism" blinds you to a history that most Australians are glad of, Soren.  Of course, that might be because you flew here, rather than grew here, like myself...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #55 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:26pm
 
IMO.

Capitalism can onlywork if you are prepared to let thse that fail, actually fail an go bankrupt.

Now we have banks and institutions too big to fail. So now we are no longer capitalist, we have turned into something ese.

I don't know the label for it but it's not capitalism. It's not socialism. It's not even corporatism. It is government paying for failed businesses not to fail. That will lead to an unhealthy structure that will fail eventually. That will be the biggest bang ever. We need them to fail at the time they are due to fail. The investors must lose their money. Now they are taking no risk as the government will not let them fail. Corporate governance will not get corrected. Bad practices will continue. No consequences will lead to ita ll going to shi*t at some point. Then other forms of government will take over, like socialism and we will go backwards.

if the government is going to bail them out, they should be given a share of the banks and companies so they can get a return later. Now that would be correct capitalist approach. I give you many, you give me shares... I will sell when it is good for me to do so. Just handing out free cash is not the way to go.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #56 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:33pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:51pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So what is a nonsocialist country then?  If Australia is a socialist country then all western countries are socialist. We are all China and north korea and cuba. No diff.  But you are an idiot, Dewek, you ALWAYS lurch for the stupid equivocation, the spineless idiocy.


Australia used to, until the election of the Hawke/Keating Governments, the second or third most socialist country in the world, Soren.  Under Hawke/Keating we saw a sudden lurch towards the right unfortunately.  You appear not to understand that Medicare, public hospitals, schools, roads, bridges, etc. are all aspects of that socialism.   Your antipathy towards me blinds you to the reality of the country you live in.  Your own hated of anything that is marked "socialism" blinds you to a history that most Australians are glad of, Soren.  Of course, that might be because you flew here, rather than grew here, like myself...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




we not only pay for all of those with our taxes  but also if and when we use them. we pay even more....

not sure what socialism has to do with that..


as for depending on the govt.. which is what I think make up socialism.....I will wait and see what happens in Nth Korea...as from what little I have heard   they do not move without the govt say so..
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #57 - Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:41pm
 
Roll Eyes  Oh, god - the old 'North Korea is a socialist state' furphy - wrong - it is a Fascist dictatorship.  Roll Eyes
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #58 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 3:35am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:35pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 10:09pm:
..............  You know it is possible to have these discussions without being abusive. Why dont you give it a try. It will be a lot more pleasant and we might find that we actually have a useful and informative discussion with some common ground.   


That would be a pleasant change
Yes, we can only hope sprint.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #59 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:09am
 
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:23pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:20pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.




It seems to work in the US ?

Capitalism only survives when socialism bails it out every decade or so. In fact every time that capitalism gets itself into trouble.

Capitalism seems to be at its best just after socialism bails it out and stays strong again till capitalism fails. Every time the going gets tough the US turn to social policy for the wealthy. 

Duckie, you are confusing government intervention with socialism.

That's  how ignorant you are.  Not surprising from a mere duck, of course. Do you poo as you waddle? Don't  answer that.



Grin What is Govt. intervention?

It's using taxpayer dollars to bail out companies  corporations

No matter how you try & paint it as being different ......

that's socialism.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #60 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:18am
 
cods wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:33pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:51pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So what is a nonsocialist country then?  If Australia is a socialist country then all western countries are socialist. We are all China and north korea and cuba. No diff.  But you are an idiot, Dewek, you ALWAYS lurch for the stupid equivocation, the spineless idiocy.


Australia used to, until the election of the Hawke/Keating Governments, the second or third most socialist country in the world, Soren.  Under Hawke/Keating we saw a sudden lurch towards the right unfortunately.  You appear not to understand that Medicare, public hospitals, schools, roads, bridges, etc. are all aspects of that socialism.   Your antipathy towards me blinds you to the reality of the country you live in.  Your own hated of anything that is marked "socialism" blinds you to a history that most Australians are glad of, Soren.  Of course, that might be because you flew here, rather than grew here, like myself...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




we not only pay for all of those with our taxes  but also if and when we use them. we pay even more....

not sure what socialism has to do with that..


as for depending on the govt.. which is what I think make up socialism.....I will wait and see what happens in Nth Korea...as from what little I have heard   they do not move without the govt say so..


The use of societies taxes for programs that benefit all citizens is socialism.

For those that have nothing, Medicare, Unemployment benefits, Disability pensions & pensions for the aged who have no super etc etc....

all socialism.

There is a difference to the communism of China & Nth Korea.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #61 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 3:56pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:51pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So what is a nonsocialist country then?  If Australia is a socialist country then all western countries are socialist. We are all China and north korea and cuba. No diff.  But you are an idiot, Dewek, you ALWAYS lurch for the stupid equivocation, the spineless idiocy.


Australia used to, until the election of the Hawke/Keating Governments, the second or third most socialist country in the world, Soren.  Under Hawke/Keating we saw a sudden lurch towards the right unfortunately.  You appear not to understand that Medicare, public hospitals, schools, roads, bridges, etc. are all aspects of that socialism.   Your antipathy towards me blinds you to the reality of the country you live in.  Your own hated of anything that is marked "socialism" blinds you to a history that most Australians are glad of, Soren.  Of course, that might be because you flew here, rather than grew here, like myself...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



So Menzies and Frazer were socialists, Hawke and Keating then lurched to the right. And having a hereditary monarch as a head of state all along is no problem for 'socialism'. Saudi Arabia must also be a socialist state, then, where almost everything  in health and education and the like is paid for by the state, with a hereditary monarch at its head.
Having a social security safety net doesn't make a country socialist.

"A socialist state, socialist republic, or socialist country, sometimes referred to as a workers' state or workers' republic, is a sovereign state constitutionally dedicated to the establishment of socialism." Wiki.  And what is socialism? Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources.

But countries that call themselves socialist and include socialism and public ownership in their constitution - like North Korea - are actually fascist dictatorships, according to some other learned person here.




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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #62 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 3:58pm
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:18am:
cods wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:33pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:04pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:51pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:30pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:27pm:
Waffle.
Show us a successful socialism by way of disproving my point.


Australia   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So what is a nonsocialist country then?  If Australia is a socialist country then all western countries are socialist. We are all China and north korea and cuba. No diff.  But you are an idiot, Dewek, you ALWAYS lurch for the stupid equivocation, the spineless idiocy.


Australia used to, until the election of the Hawke/Keating Governments, the second or third most socialist country in the world, Soren.  Under Hawke/Keating we saw a sudden lurch towards the right unfortunately.  You appear not to understand that Medicare, public hospitals, schools, roads, bridges, etc. are all aspects of that socialism.   Your antipathy towards me blinds you to the reality of the country you live in.  Your own hated of anything that is marked "socialism" blinds you to a history that most Australians are glad of, Soren.  Of course, that might be because you flew here, rather than grew here, like myself...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




we not only pay for all of those with our taxes  but also if and when we use them. we pay even more....

not sure what socialism has to do with that..


as for depending on the govt.. which is what I think make up socialism.....I will wait and see what happens in Nth Korea...as from what little I have heard   they do not move without the govt say so..


The use of societies taxes for programs that benefit all citizens is socialism.

For those that have nothing, Medicare, Unemployment benefits, Disability pensions & pensions for the aged who have no super etc etc....

all socialism.

There is a difference to the communism of China & Nth Korea.


Having a social security safety net doesn't make a country socialist. Some of the countries with the most robust social safety nets are hereditary monarchies, established hundreds of years ago.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #63 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 5:54pm
 
Super Nova wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:26pm:
IMO.

Capitalism can onlywork if you are prepared to let thse that fail, actually fail an go bankrupt.

Now we have banks and institutions too big to fail. So now we are no longer capitalist, we have turned into something ese.

I don't know the label for it but it's not capitalism. It's not socialism. It's not even corporatism. It is government paying for failed businesses not to fail. That will lead to an unhealthy structure that will fail eventually. That will be the biggest bang ever. We need them to fail at the time they are due to fail. The investors must lose their money. Now they are taking no risk as the government will not let them fail. Corporate governance will not get corrected. Bad practices will continue. No consequences will lead to ita ll going to shi*t at some point. Then other forms of government will take over, like socialism and we will go backwards.

if the government is going to bail them out, they should be given a share of the banks and companies so they can get a return later. Now that would be correct capitalist approach. I give you many, you give me shares... I will sell when it is good for me to do so. Just handing out free cash is not the way to go.


I think what you may not be factoring in is the consequences of the Govt just letting these businesses fail. And the hint lies in the label they use to justify the bail outs; "too big to fail". Consider the GFC and now the far bigger crisis, Covid 19. Now I do agree that this constant cycle of crash and bail-out will eventually make people fed up and "eventually" cause the whole system (political as well as economic) to fail big time. But thats not the immediate threat the Power Elite is concerbned about. What they're rightly more concerned about is the immediate and far more certain danger that the system will collapse in the very near future if they don't bailout right now.

Now IMO what we're witnessing is exactly what capitalism is (and corporatism - same thing). I'm not a Marxist but I think his observation that Capitalism is inherently unstable and constantly going from boom to bust is spot on. And being Capitalists what are they going to do when the disaster is so all encompassing that they stand to lose everything. They're going to pressure the Govt to bail them out & hang what the  Purests may says about that not being real capitalism. They don't care about that and nor does the Govt because the Govt's head is on the block too.

Now is this constant bailing out of failed capitalists, "Socialism". No I agree with you. Not yet. But only because the ownership of these businesses are not transferred into the peoples hands. (turns out there are free lunches after all - for some). But the solution used to fix the crisis is undeniably the socialist solution. That's all it could be. The market has collapsed, it cant help and if we leave it that way everything else will collapse (Govt, Courts, Political institutions etc). The dog eat dog world wont save us anymore. Suddenly they're reminding us that we're a community again & we need to act together & collectively and everyone needs to chip in because this thing is too big to fail for all our sake's.

So how many of these bailout will there be until the community says; Hey wait a minute, we're sick of this. If we bail you out we get the asset and we keep it. Now thats socialism.

Last point. The socialism that these endless bailouts may eventually bring is something that we can shape ourselves. The Neoliberals want us to believe that the only way we can have socialism is if its authoritarian. When the Marcos Govt in the Philippines was overthrown by People Power, they didn't say it was a failure of capitalism but a failure of authoritarianism (notwithstanding that Marcos regularly had elections and his system had democratic features in varying degrees). But when the Berlin wall went down they told us it was a failure of socialism not authoritarianism.

Democratic socialism has regularly succeeded around the world. Recently in Portugal the Socialist Govt was re-elected for a 2nd time (or perhaps a 3rd - I don't remember). Contrary to what they want us to believe we don't have to have a Chinese Socialist Govt just as we don't have to have a Capitalist Pinochet Militarily junta Govt. I personally cant think of a better more natural mix than real democracy and socialism.    
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #64 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:52pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:41pm:
Roll Eyes  Oh, god - the old 'North Korea is a socialist state' furphy - wrong - it is a Fascist dictatorship.  Roll Eyes


Most socialist states are fascist dictatorships. You realise they aren't mutually exclusive, right?
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #65 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 10:20pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:52pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 11:41pm:
Roll Eyes  Oh, god - the old 'North Korea is a socialist state' furphy - wrong - it is a Fascist dictatorship.  Roll Eyes


Most socialist states are fascist dictatorships. You realise they aren't mutually exclusive, right?


Actually Communists hated social fascists because they stood in the way of dictators.
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #66 - Sep 17th, 2020 at 10:52pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 13th, 2020 at 11:30pm:
I'm not arguing that capitalism is great or not. I'm saying that capitalism doesn't need bailouts to survive. Some companies fail, some succeed, but capitalism just keeps going by it's own momentum, if it's allowed to


"It survives" is a very low standard. Feudalism survived for over a millennium but it was oppressive for most of the people who lived in it. Free-market capitalism naturally goes through cycles of boom and bust. Things are generally good for everyone during the boom times, but the busts lead to widespread misery and suffering. Economics figured out decades ago that this boom-bust cycle can be mitigated, and almost eliminated, with fiscal and monetary policy. Seems silly to want to go back to a system prone to regular collapses.


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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #67 - Sep 18th, 2020 at 12:06am
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:09am:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:23pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:20pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.




It seems to work in the US ?

Capitalism only survives when socialism bails it out every decade or so. In fact every time that capitalism gets itself into trouble.

Capitalism seems to be at its best just after socialism bails it out and stays strong again till capitalism fails. Every time the going gets tough the US turn to social policy for the wealthy. 

Duckie, you are confusing government intervention with socialism.

That's  how ignorant you are.  Not surprising from a mere duck, of course. Do you poo as you waddle? Don't  answer that.



Grin What is Govt. intervention?

It's using taxpayer dollars to bail out companies  corporations

No matter how you try & paint it as being different ......

that's socialism.


Well - the bailout of stimulus packaging is designed to ultimately benefit business and keep it solvent... it's not as if the peasants are hiding the lovely in their mattresses...  to the contrary - they spend it at the shops and such and thus not only do the peasants remains solvent, but most businesses do.

People seem to think that everything government pays for is from 'tax revenue' - hardly - governments borrow, like a mortgage etc, and they also play the stock market with your money... the Offshored Future Fund is a precise example.... it plays the stock market etc, and the only REAL difference is that the $130Bn stolen from the treasury and all of its future earnings are dedicated to preserving the lifestyle and income of SOME - and this out of public money!!

Suddenly the government, in times of crisis, can see that priming the economy by paying the peasants instead of feeding the capitalists actually works.... of course, the limit is reached once the peasants reach 'tip-over' point, where they no longer need to buy microwaves except when their current one wears out...

P.S.  I bought a K-Mart microwave over seven years ago - it is still working and is actually better than the high priced one in the kitchen... the K-Mart has been relegated to the granny flat, but works better.

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #68 - Sep 18th, 2020 at 7:45am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 12:06am:
Gnads wrote on Sep 17th, 2020 at 6:09am:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 9:23pm:
Dnarever wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 7:20pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 6:44pm:
Jest wrote on Sep 16th, 2020 at 2:10pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 14th, 2020 at 5:44pm:
Quote:
10. Rising living standards.

Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty. Since China and other countries of south-east Asia became more ‘capitalist and free market, their economies have grown leading to a rise in living standards and a fall in levels of poverty.


The so called private enterprise "Think Tanks"/"Institutes" (for which you should really substitute the words "Propaganda Cells") spend a mottza putting stats and graphs like this together for dissemination all over the web. And its very much like the stats and graphs you get from the Feminist Movement and Race Activist Movements. They selectively choose the factors which they say make out their case so that, for example, within a few days of the Covid epidemic surfacing they tell us that Covid disproportionately hurts women/black people/Trans people. The other day I even saw an all female science study claim that micro plastics in the Oceans disproportionately hurts women.  Truth is self serving interest groups like the IPA make this sh*t up. 

And most importantly note that the caption states "Capitalism has contributed to rising living standards and fall in absolute poverty..." Of course you got to ask; What does "contributed" mean and more importantly again, which economic system was the other "contributor" in all this.China and India accounts for over  half the worlds population & their socialist & mixed socialist economies are the major reason for bring their peoples out of poverty. Just imagine the level of poverty that we would  have in China and India today if after WW2 China and India were neoliberal capitalist countries. The misery would be unfathomable to us 


It is the wrong end of the stick you are hanging onto there, pal, rather desperately. You are completely wrong.  There was famine and misery in both China and India - and everywhere else - while they were pursuing 'scientific socialist' and Marxist policies in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.  Only when they turned away from 'scientific socialism' did they start turning things around. Socialism is a guaranteed failure, economically and culturally and socially.

Socialism is Orwellian Newspeak for 'we are completely fcvked, how do we get out of this godawful mess '. every evidence from history supports that assessment.

Show us successful socialism by way of disproving my point.




It seems to work in the US ?

Capitalism only survives when socialism bails it out every decade or so. In fact every time that capitalism gets itself into trouble.

Capitalism seems to be at its best just after socialism bails it out and stays strong again till capitalism fails. Every time the going gets tough the US turn to social policy for the wealthy. 

Duckie, you are confusing government intervention with socialism.

That's  how ignorant you are.  Not surprising from a mere duck, of course. Do you poo as you waddle? Don't  answer that.



Grin What is Govt. intervention?

It's using taxpayer dollars to bail out companies  corporations

No matter how you try & paint it as being different ......

that's socialism.


Well - the bailout of stimulus packaging is designed to ultimately benefit business and keep it solvent... it's not as if the peasants are hiding the lovely in their mattresses...  to the contrary - they spend it at the shops and such and thus not only do the peasants remains solvent, but most businesses do.

People seem to think that everything government pays for is from 'tax revenue' - hardly - governments borrow, like a mortgage etc, and they also play the stock market with your money... the Offshored Future Fund is a precise example.... it plays the stock market etc, and the only REAL difference is that the $130Bn stolen from the treasury and all of its future earnings are dedicated to preserving the lifestyle and income of SOME - and this out of public money!!

Suddenly the government, in times of crisis, can see that priming the economy by paying the peasants instead of feeding the capitalists actually works.... of course, the limit is reached once the peasants reach 'tip-over' point, where they no longer need to buy microwaves except when their current one wears out...

P.S.  I bought a K-Mart microwave over seven years ago - it is still working and is actually better than the high priced one in the kitchen... the K-Mart has been relegated to the granny flat, but works better.



Ultimately what govts. borrow has to be repaid

who repays it?

Taxpayers?

or is it slight of hand & rubbery figures?

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #69 - Sep 18th, 2020 at 7:50am
 
Slash & burn running up to an election?

Who gets the chop?  Grin

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #70 - Sep 18th, 2020 at 4:27pm
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 7:45am:

Ultimately what govts. borrow has to be repaid

who repays it?

Taxpayers?

or is it slight of hand & rubbery figures?



Actually no

After WW2 the national debt was astronomical. They didn't even try and pay it back.
They let inflation and a growing economy reduce the relative Debt to GDP ratio until it was manageable

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #71 - Sep 18th, 2020 at 9:17pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 4:27pm:
Gnads wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 7:45am:

Ultimately what govts. borrow has to be repaid

who repays it?

Taxpayers?

or is it slight of hand & rubbery figures?



Actually no

After WW2 the national debt was astronomical. They didn't even try and pay it back.
They let inflation and a growing economy reduce the relative Debt to GDP ratio until it was manageable


That sounds like magic.

Would you put your own lifesavings into such government bonds?
Of course you wouldn't. 

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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #72 - Sep 19th, 2020 at 8:34am
 
Bertie wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 9:17pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 4:27pm:
Gnads wrote on Sep 18th, 2020 at 7:45am:

Ultimately what govts. borrow has to be repaid

who repays it?

Taxpayers?

or is it slight of hand & rubbery figures?



Actually no

After WW2 the national debt was astronomical. They didn't even try and pay it back.
They let inflation and a growing economy reduce the relative Debt to GDP ratio until it was manageable


That sounds like magic.

Would you put your own lifesavings into such government bonds?
Of course you wouldn't. 



Why? People make a lot of money putting money into Govt bonds.  Maybe the real problem is the way we think about money. They used to tell us it doesn't grow on trees but if the GFC and Covid has taught us anything its that when they want money does grow on trees, or even better, they just snap their fingers and there it is. One thing I think is certain is that the way money works in a household is way way different to the way money works in a world economy and that maybe they can just print it when they need it. 

I dont remember anyone in the history books saying; "Where's the money coming from. How we going to afford this war, we should surrender".  And yet magically they came up with the money and although we're told we finished up with an astronomical debt nobody felt it. Time to start asking if we've been fed a lot of BS about money.   
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #73 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 3:53pm
 
The UK government is to repay part of the nation’s first world war debt – 100 years since the start of the war.

As Europe marks the centenary of the Great War, the Treasury said it would pay off £218m from a 4% consolidated loan next February, as part of a redemption of bonds stretching as far back as the 18th century. They also relate to the South Sea Bubble crisis of 1720, the Napoleonic and Crimean wars and the Irish potato famine.

Almost £2bn of first world war debt remains, and the government said it was looking into the practicalities of repaying it in full.

The “4% consols” were issued in 1927 by Winston Churchill, then chancellor, to refinance national war bonds originating from the first world war. The government’s Debt Management Office (DMO) estimates that the nation has paid £1.26bn in interest on these bonds since 1927.


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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #74 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 4:10pm
 
Bertie wrote on Sep 21st, 2020 at 3:53pm:
The UK government is to repay part of the nation’s first world war debt – 100 years since the start of the war.

As Europe marks the centenary of the Great War, the Treasury said it would pay off £218m from a 4% consolidated loan next February, as part of a redemption of bonds stretching as far back as the 18th century. They also relate to the South Sea Bubble crisis of 1720, the Napoleonic and Crimean wars and the Irish potato famine.

Almost £2bn of first world war debt remains, and the government said it was looking into the practicalities of repaying it in full.

The “4% consols” were issued in 1927 by Winston Churchill, then chancellor, to refinance national war bonds originating from the first world war. The government’s Debt Management Office (DMO) estimates that the nation has paid £1.26bn in interest on these bonds since 1927.



2 billion pounds is nothing.
The current UK national debt is more than 1 trillion pounds
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #75 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 6:00pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 21st, 2020 at 4:10pm:
Bertie wrote on Sep 21st, 2020 at 3:53pm:
The UK government is to repay part of the nation’s first world war debt – 100 years since the start of the war.

As Europe marks the centenary of the Great War, the Treasury said it would pay off £218m from a 4% consolidated loan next February, as part of a redemption of bonds stretching as far back as the 18th century. They also relate to the South Sea Bubble crisis of 1720, the Napoleonic and Crimean wars and the Irish potato famine.

Almost £2bn of first world war debt remains, and the government said it was looking into the practicalities of repaying it in full.

The “4% consols” were issued in 1927 by Winston Churchill, then chancellor, to refinance national war bonds originating from the first world war. The government’s Debt Management Office (DMO) estimates that the nation has paid £1.26bn in interest on these bonds since 1927.



2 billion pounds is nothing.
The current UK national debt is more than 1 trillion pounds


Were you an early employee at one of the first Ten Pin bowling alleys?

Rack 'em up Solley.  Roll Eyes
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #76 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 6:15pm
 
Indeed - all Western nations - the successful ones anyway, are socialist to some degree..... nothing to see here... including the US.....
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Re: If Capitalism is so great........
Reply #77 - Sep 21st, 2020 at 7:03pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 21st, 2020 at 4:10pm:
Bertie wrote on Sep 21st, 2020 at 3:53pm:
The UK government is to repay part of the nation’s first world war debt – 100 years since the start of the war.

As Europe marks the centenary of the Great War, the Treasury said it would pay off £218m from a 4% consolidated loan next February, as part of a redemption of bonds stretching as far back as the 18th century. They also relate to the South Sea Bubble crisis of 1720, the Napoleonic and Crimean wars and the Irish potato famine.

Almost £2bn of first world war debt remains, and the government said it was looking into the practicalities of repaying it in full.

The “4% consols” were issued in 1927 by Winston Churchill, then chancellor, to refinance national war bonds originating from the first world war. The government’s Debt Management Office (DMO) estimates that the nation has paid £1.26bn in interest on these bonds since 1927.



2 billion pounds is nothing.
The current UK national debt is more than 1 trillion pounds



It's 2 billion pounds of debt still outstanding AFTER 100 YEARS.  In other words they had a huge debt for 100 ears and HAD to service it and it is still not paid off. So money doe not grow on trees.
Sure, you can cancel foreign debt - but it is very detrimental to your credit rating as a country - but not debt to your own people.
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