Brian Ross wrote on Sep 16^th, 2020 at 11:04pm:



So Menzies and Frazer were socialists, Hawke and Keating then lurched to the right. And having a hereditary monarch as a head of state all along is no problem for 'socialism'. Saudi Arabia must also be a socialist state, then, where almost everything  in health and education and the like is paid for by the state, with a hereditary monarch at its head.
Having a social security safety net doesn't make a country socialist.

"A socialist state, socialist republic, or socialist country, sometimes referred to as a workers' state or workers' republic, is a sovereign state constitutionally dedicated to the establishment of socialism." Wiki.  And what is socialism? Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources.

But countries that call themselves socialist and include socialism and public ownership in their constitution - like North Korea - are actually fascist dictatorships, according to some other learned person here.

Super Nova wrote on Sep 16^th, 2020 at 11:26pm:


I think what you may not be factoring in is the consequences of the Govt just letting these businesses fail. And the hint lies in the label they use to justify the bail outs; "too big to fail". Consider the GFC and now the far bigger crisis, Covid 19. Now I do agree that this constant cycle of crash and bail-out will eventually make people fed up and "eventually" cause the whole system (political as well as economic) to fail big time. But thats not the immediate threat the Power Elite is concerbned about. What they're rightly more concerned about is the immediate and far more certain danger that the system will collapse in the very near future if they don't bailout right now.

Now IMO what we're witnessing is exactly what capitalism is (and corporatism - same thing). I'm not a Marxist but I think his observation that Capitalism is inherently unstable and constantly going from boom to bust is spot on. And being Capitalists what are they going to do when the disaster is so all encompassing that they stand to lose everything. They're going to pressure the Govt to bail them out & hang what the  Purests may says about that not being real capitalism. They don't care about that and nor does the Govt because the Govt's head is on the block too.

Now is this constant bailing out of failed capitalists, "Socialism". No I agree with you. Not yet. But only because the ownership of these businesses are not transferred into the peoples hands. (turns out there are free lunches after all - for some). But the solution used to fix the crisis is undeniably the socialist solution. That's all it could be. The market has collapsed, it cant help and if we leave it that way everything else will collapse (Govt, Courts, Political institutions etc). The dog eat dog world wont save us anymore. Suddenly they're reminding us that we're a community again & we need to act together & collectively and everyone needs to chip in because this thing is too big to fail for all our sake's.

So how many of these bailout will there be until the community says; Hey wait a minute, we're sick of this. If we bail you out we get the asset and we keep it. Now thats socialism.

Last point. The socialism that these endless bailouts may eventually bring is something that we can shape ourselves. The Neoliberals want us to believe that the only way we can have socialism is if its authoritarian. When the Marcos Govt in the Philippines was overthrown by People Power, they didn't say it was a failure of capitalism but a failure of authoritarianism (notwithstanding that Marcos regularly had elections and his system had democratic features in varying degrees). But when the Berlin wall went down they told us it was a failure of socialism not authoritarianism.

Democratic socialism has regularly succeeded around the world. Recently in Portugal the Socialist Govt was re-elected for a 2nd time (or perhaps a 3rd - I don't remember). Contrary to what they want us to believe we don't have to have a Chinese Socialist Govt just as we don't have to have a Capitalist Pinochet Militarily junta Govt. I personally cant think of a better more natural mix than real democracy and socialism.    

freediver wrote on Sep 17^th, 2020 at 6:52pm:


Actually Communists hated social fascists because they stood in the way of dictators.

Gnads wrote on Sep 17^th, 2020 at 6:09am:


Well - the bailout of stimulus packaging is designed to ultimately benefit business and keep it solvent... it's not as if the peasants are hiding the lovely in their mattresses...  to the contrary - they spend it at the shops and such and thus not only do the peasants remains solvent, but most businesses do.

People seem to think that everything government pays for is from 'tax revenue' - hardly - governments borrow, like a mortgage etc, and they also play the stock market with your money... the Offshored Future Fund is a precise example.... it plays the stock market etc, and the only REAL difference is that the $130Bn stolen from the treasury and all of its future earnings are dedicated to preserving the lifestyle and income of SOME - and this out of public money!!

Suddenly the government, in times of crisis, can see that priming the economy by paying the peasants instead of feeding the capitalists actually works.... of course, the limit is reached once the peasants reach 'tip-over' point, where they no longer need to buy microwaves except when their current one wears out...

Slash & burn running up to an election?

Who gets the chop? 

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 18^th, 2020 at 4:27pm:

That sounds like magic.

Would you put your own lifesavings into such government bonds?
Of course you wouldn't. 

The UK government is to repay part of the nation’s first world war debt – 100 years since the start of the war.

As Europe marks the centenary of the Great War, the Treasury said it would pay off £218m from a 4% consolidated loan next February, as part of a redemption of bonds stretching as far back as the 18th century. They also relate to the South Sea Bubble crisis of 1720, the Napoleonic and Crimean wars and the Irish potato famine.

Almost £2bn of first world war debt remains, and the government said it was looking into the practicalities of repaying it in full.

The “4% consols” were issued in 1927 by Winston Churchill, then chancellor, to refinance national war bonds originating from the first world war. The government’s Debt Management Office (DMO) estimates that the nation has paid £1.26bn in interest on these bonds since 1927.