Whitenight has been posting a lot of union propaganda about backpackers picking fruit lately. I'm not sure if this is a new union focus or the result of random copying and pasting. A lot of our fruit farmers would go broke if they had to compete against the mines and gas companies to mobilise a large workforce each picking season, while also competing against foreign farms that either have dirt cheap labour or massive government subsidies.

At first I thought they just wanted to send farmers bankrupt because they are "evil corporations" like all the rest. But it appears there is an even more sinister reasoning. The entire farm labour industry is largely non-unionised. If the unions got what they wanted, it would not become unionised, it would disappear because it would be unprofitable. But this is apparently a better outcome from the union perspective.

Whitenight has also been posting propaganda targeting similar workforces in rural areas, such as backpackers working in outback pubs.

Keep in mind that most of these backpackers spend more money locally than they earn. They get a job to extend their holidays. And many return a decade or two later for another holiday, with a lot more cash in their pockets. So if the unions destroyed their ability to find work, it would also be a blow to our tourism industry.

Most of all, the unions would kill a lot of good times for young people who may not be union members and who may not even be citizens, but who still contribute greatly to our country. Everybody wins and has a good time, but unless the unions get their cut they prefer to destroy it all and replace it with an army of miserable minimum wage union drones.

I spent a summer picking watermelons once. It was hard work, and I'm pretty sure I got paid below minimum wage.

cods wrote on Aug 13^th, 2020 at 10:31am:


We use backpackers and Pacific Islanders to pick fruit because Aussies prefer to stay on the dole.

Without these people picking fruit it would be left to rot on the ground.

cods wrote on Aug 13^th, 2020 at 10:44am:


I picked apples and pears for a holiday job, partly to fund of a gap OS holiday.

The farmers would put you on wages for first pick when the trees were loaded then put you on $/bin when there was less fruit on the tree, usually ended up making the same.

Can honestly say that was one of the best times of my life...working hard, partying with backpackers from all over the world at night and I'm still in contact with some of the people I met.

Actually, I have better memories of the picking than the OS holiday 

Never thought fruit picking was an industry.... but hell...

cods wrote on Aug 13^th, 2020 at 10:31am:


They have for decades .... the lifestyle suits some

not all. 

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 13^th, 2020 at 2:18pm:


There are just as many Pacific Islanders/Kiwis on the aussie dole proportionally for population.

There's nothing wrong with using PI's & backpackers to do this work ......

but the main reason Aussies wont do it .... is because traditionally the farmers pay shyte wages .. below minimum wage & they still do

even FD has admitted that he was paid like that when he picked watermelons.

And making people live in squalor on farm doesn't help.

Gnads wrote on Aug 14^th, 2020 at 9:00am:




they dont queue for the wages thats for sure....I have never heard of aussies  being relied upon to do this hard work.....seriously I havent!

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2020 at 9:38am:



thats why the govt allowed farmers to bring in o/seas  pickers for the season....there are no laws that say if you do not take these jobs you will not get unemployment funds..........and aussies are well aware of that.

Gnads wrote on Aug 14^th, 2020 at 9:01am:



Of course he got paid below minimum wage. Every worker in the industry does. That's why farmers and the industry are fighting so hard against unionization to make sure their cash cow stays open so they can keep paying exploitative wages to improve their profit margins. AND of course, because it puts downward pressure on Australian wages. And make no mistake no matter how low wages goes down farmers and the industry will always cry wolf that they'll go broke if they have to pay decent wages. 

I also think its important that we expose the real propaganda here, which is what we see in the opening post. Farmers have led the charge since the 90s to break down Australia's trade barriers so they could get free and lucrative access to foreign markets (especially China) knowing that (1) it would decimate our manufacturing industry (which it did), (2) permanently destroy the jobs that went with those industries (3) destroy many other jobs connected to businesses that jumped to relocate offshore to access slave wages overseas and (4) it would put downward pressure on Australian wages (they want a good living for themselves but everyone else must stay on poverty wages).   

This is what farmers and the Business class did for their own self interest but for some reason its never OK for Workers to protect their interests. "Oh poor farmers will go broke if they have to pay fair wage". But workers will lose their homes and go without necessities if they're not paid a livable wage, well of course that doesn't count to these cheap propagandists.

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Nothing is stopping farm workers joining the union, except common sense. That's why the unions want to destroy the industry and the lifestyle.

That just means there's more of them.

Hey FD, do watermelon pickers get fingers up their bums like Aussie's strawberry pickers?

Gordon wrote on Aug 14^th, 2020 at 12:06pm:


So are you suggesting that there is a correlation between the seedlessness of the watermelons and freediver?

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2020 at 10:46am:


First I don't believe the claims we always hear from farmers that they will go broke if they don't get their way and everybody else must sacrifice their own interests to make the farmer's business a success for them. Second the situation we are in is thanks to farmers who wanted to make a killing at both ends. Lower the trade barriers so they could have access to foreign markets (esp the billion+ population China market) and then argue that they need to pay poverty wages to local workers or they wont be able to compete. Wages have stagnated and fallen across the board since the 90s because of that argument and it will get worse until we attack the real problem, the trade barriers that farmers deliberately destroyed knowing that it would savage working families but make them a mottzza. 

But this is not a problem just in Australia. Its all over the developed world deliberately created by the Business Class and farmers to gain access to foreign markets and most importantly to gain access to a labour force compelled to work for slave wages. This new system works great for them. The only trouble is it screws the country and everyone else in the country royally.

How to fix it. (1) Employ Australians first (its the only policy that makes sense for anyone who really cares for the people of this country instead of just themselves), (2) tariffs on all cheap imported goods manufactured by foreign and local businesses that pay slave wages and or use child labour (3) Apply a hefty tariff on all local businesses who relocate their workforce overseas and then send their goods back to Australia so that they can take advantage of the higher wages that for the time being exist here, but which they are destroying. Unemployment, underemployment and poverty wages are only going to get worse if we keep buying into the farmers propaganda that they will go broke if they dont have a ready source of workers to give them charity work. Farmers need to stop pulling out their begging bowls and thank this country for the many benefits they receive gratis but never are enough to them.    

                         Employer (Gay)
                  ^             I                   V       
                                 I
    Unions (Yobbo) -----I----- Super Industry (Wanker)
                                 I
                  ^             I                   V
                      Employee (Redneck)

One takes a fee from the Employee, the other takes a intake from the Employer

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2020 at 12:59pm:


The overwhelming historical and current evidence has shown this to be true.Where's your evidence? Unions arose precisely because of these excessive employer practices that saw Workers underpaid and overworked in appalling conditions that often resulted in maimings and death and just as often for children. The only reason things improved is because Workers formed Unions and we see now in the 3rd world the same employer abuses occurring including the appalling abuse of children. And here's the clincher. Big name brands from the 1st world (eg Nike, Apple) are flocking to underdeveloped countries to get their piece of the Slave Labour action and they would do the same in Aust and the rest of the developed world if given half the chance.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2020 at 12:59pm:


Of course they are. Australia has created a specific category of visa for them and at the behest of the Farmer's Union to accommodate their wish for a ready group of people to overwork for poverty wages. And clearly the Unions dont think everyone benefits and nor do a huge proportion of Australians, if not the majority. Australian workers are missing out on jobs because farmers are being allowed to pay substandard wages for long grueling hours. And thats only what we see. Scratch under the surface and most the foreign workers get no money in the hand after food and the excessive cost of a bed is deducted. Indeed most those foreign students wouldn't accept that treatment in their own country. Its only because they're here for a lark that they do. But what they do is destroy jobs for Australians and drive down the pay fore those jobs. All because farmers have pulled out their begging bowl again asking for special exemptions for themselves.      

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2020 at 12:59pm:


Again, tell the rest of the developed world that so called "free trade" is a good thing. Good for who? Just for starters, this country lost its manufacturing industries and all the jobs that went with it because of cuts to the trade barriers. And that's just one of a whole raft of downsides Working families have had to bear so that Farmer's profits could saw with access to foreign markets etc

And no, falling wages is a consequence of the deliberate policy pursued by Farmers, the Business Class and their Farmer/Business Unions (who are all invited to the trade agreement talks) to give themselves access to foreign markets, cheap foreign slave labour (including child labour) and to put downward pressure on domestic wages. And it worked a treat for them. Pity about the rest of the country who, as always, had to pay the price for the Farmer's increased fortunes.
   
freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2020 at 12:59pm:

No, Im saying that farmer through their Farmers Union deliberately brought about this situation because it overall benefited them. And history has proved that to be true. But of course farmers being farmers are now pulling out their begging bowls because they want to be insulated from even that small bit of disadvantage to them and again they want everyone else to pay the price for them.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 9:36am:

(1) The historical evidence. As I outlined, or are you pretending its not so, and (2) the current evidence in non unionised underdeveloped countries where our big employers are off shoring to so they can happily engage in the abuse of workers for higher profits.  Its in the "Private Enterprise" DNA. They can't help it. Squeeze every morsel of profit you can get no matter the misery it causes

Jest wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 9:41am:


What historical evidence?

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 10:41am:


I think you're the one that's delusional FD.

Just because you first worked in a 40 hour environment doesn't mean that it was always like that.

People died to get the entitlements that you've become accustom to since joining the work force.

And the oligarchy have been trying to wither these rites away ever since they were made law.

You like your holiday pay you like your sickies, you like going out and staying at home with the family on weekends.

Blood was spilt so you can enjoy these and more in your working life.

What can i say FD.

The only thing i can say is have a look at that age old mirror called history.

greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 11:18am:


It's complete BS.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 11:23am:


No, it's true.

The Unions are the ones responsible for most of our workplace benefits.

Annual leave, sick leave, 38 hour week, long service leave, meal breaks, etc.

ALL thanks to the Unions.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 2:08pm:


Absolutely.

100%

In fact, it would probably be worse.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 2:12pm:


Nope, I'm right on the money, as was Ajax.

Unions had and still have their place, but unions are also run by people who are often corrupt and have self interest at heart and put the existence of unions over what they were created to actually do.

A unions goals should be to not have to exist.

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 2:15pm:


Corporations had and still have their place, but corporations are also run by people who are often corrupt and have self interest at heart and put the existence of corporations over what they were created to actually do.

Dnarever wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 2:16pm:


I don't believe 16 hours a day is an exaggeration.

Without the good work of unions, it would have been a real possibility.

freediver wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 9:58am:


The historical evidence that everyone knows about except you because they went to school and you didn't. Yes its that well known. Only propagandists would pretend thats not true. BUT again, there is also the current evidence that in non unionized underdeveloped countries today Workers are paid slave wages for long grueling hours and often its child labour.  AND the clincher; Corporations from Developed countries have relocated in droves to those countries to take advantage of the slave labour pay and conditions.      

greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 3:32pm:


I dont believe 16 hours a day is an exaggeration either.As you pointed out earlier. Its because we have the luxury of working in favourable conditions thanks to unions that we find it hard to believe that it could have been as bad as we know from history that it was.    

Jest wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 9:49pm:


Did I have an inferior education if my school didn't teach me how to mindlessly parrot union propaganda then screech hysterically when given the opportunity to present evidence?

Be no problem as long as an awards system was in place and upheld by all, and things were better when an industrialised Australia was full Union.

Why would any honest employer have any issue with being held to the rules??  Cowboys and short-changers are the reason why awards and Unions need to be in place, same as Highway Patrol needs to be in place to control cowboys on the roads.

You won't get me into some full Yankee Unionised Australia.
Us Confederates were a superior force at the 'worker' level than the Yanks. Only their Generals were better than ours and won by tactics more than man-power.
So at the most, we were the more 'empowered' worker (soldier) by not being in the Union.
We non-Unionised are the better workers. We get more pussy in the work place. This time, tactics won't help them here. Rebel Bikers already itchin for a fight.

We Confederates (of the Federation Star of Australia) aren't workers for nothing. You ain't a 'worker', if you have a love of money over women. Ever see a rich 'worker'? Letting a Union parasite upon you in offerings of workplace conditions and pay - makes you think you'll win the lotto one day.

Jest wrote on Aug 16^th, 2020 at 10:50pm:


You know that genders exist, yet you actually expect others to look up scientific journals for proof for you. You know that the actions of unions cost jobs, but still you parrot their nonsense.

Quote:


This is not the claim I asked for evidence of.

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This would carry more weight if you knew what "it" was.

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2020 at 10:39am:


The watermelons I picked were at the bottom of a valley next to a stream, it was about 150 mtrs below the road level and maybe 1/2 K. Heavy buggers all uphill and 40 degrees. That was work, couldn't do it today.

We should ban weekends altogether so people can work 7 days for their businesses. Workers working away for their own businesses. No penalty rate rort for working another 2 days. Harder workers make better businesses. Weekends are for pussy Unionist workers.

Captain Caveman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2020 at 8:57am:


My employment conditions are far better than any union could get me.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 19^th, 2020 at 6:42pm:


Everyone has choices when it comes to work. It is a classic piece of union propaganda that your current job is the only one you could possibly have.

Any real absence of choice is the result of unions commodifying human labour.

Quote:


We had at least 3 members proudly standing by this claim not long ago. Now they have all gone silent. Why?

It isn't the Unions trying to kill non-Union industries - the non-Union industries are imploding for one simple reason - you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Even the backpackers picking fruit submit an endless array of complaints over treatment, conditions and return for work.

Once more - what honest business would have any issue with a Union ensuring it paid the correct rates and offered the correct legislated conditions?

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2020 at 8:59pm:


What about piece rate?  What about casual? 

So you are now saying the Bossy Bigheart is doing the workers a favour by only offering them part-time casual - sometimes for sixteen hours a day...

The point is - without the Union movement past, the old days of open-ended hours and seven day weeks would still apply - times have changed, and the bosses need to catch up with the 21st Century, the one in which they do not get to ill-treat their workers as serfs and slaves.  People would be itinerant shearers on piece work .... and we all know where that lead - to repeated shearer's strikes for better wages and conditions.

Unions do NOT decide on wage rates and conditions...... they may seek to negotiate over above award pay or extra conditions relating to a specific workplace - but that's about it.  The government sets the wage rates, and even Howard's Work'choices' required that no worker be paid less than Award under any agreement.

Things run better when everyone is in agreement on a contraact of employment - whether it be Award pure or simply Award-driven, as industrial agreements are required to be.

Yours is but one agreement..... but without the Union annual presentation to the wage deciders (whoever they may be on any given day these days - at the moment Liberal flunkies), there would be zero baseline on which to determine how much you should be paid or under what conditions you should work.

Are you prepared to say that whatever remuneration you get is not based on a baseline and some negotiated plus if possible?  Do you imagine that your boss simply decided to give you a good spot because of the kindness of his/her heart?  If they could get you for $10 a day they would..... but they can't as long as there are strong people prepared to hold the line on industrial conditions and wages - which directly affect all other wages and salaries, including the public service, which falls under the national wage case the same as everyone else on wages and salary... including you.

Get used to it.

Quote:


I'm saying I have no idea what you are rambling about. Do you have any evidence for this:

Quote:


?

Quote:


You are being irrational here Graps. Are you crediting the unions with facilitating the passage of time?

Quote:


They can't because someone else would offer me $20. And not being a union drone, I would take it instead of whinging and demanding my current boss pays me $10.13 a day.

Quote:


So you agree that the unions want to send farmers broke? But it is not killing the industry because you support killing the industry and destroying a way of life for backpackers?

Do you hate them because they have more fun than you?

This isn't a negotiation. You are wrong.

Do you have any evidence for this:

Quote:


?

https://www.australianunions.org.au/union_achievements

P.S.  for the thinking man, reading through this and other relevant documents clearly gives the lie and runs the wood right through the fantastic plastic lies put about by the 'feminists', their running dogs and their lap dogs such as populate the Labrador Party these days - about how men stole their birthright to some fabulous career.... sure - there were anomalies such as lower pay for the same work - that put them in the same boat in reality as the vast majority of men......... and careers were as rare as hen's teeth in Antarctica for the majority.....

Now you know the truth .... just reading The Boy Colonel, a story of a very young Battalion commander in WWI - and remain struck, to this day, at the incredible way in which the relatively deprived ordinary men went about their volunteered-for duties with dedication and loyalty and comradeship involving often supreme sacrifice.... and did it time and again.

I believe such men are becoming rare in these days of darkness upon the land wrought by Isms left and right.... and why would they be any other way given their lot in life under the frankly insane feminism/gynocentrism that has infected the nation, culture and society of the West?

So despite so many people parroting the same line about unions changing the course of history, all they have is bluster to support their absurd claims?

freediver wrote on Aug 25^th, 2020 at 6:53pm:


I've posted support for that view time and time again.... yes - we would have been riding horses to work without the union movement as it once was - for the simple reason that robber baron bosses would have made sure the workers were paid so low they couldn't afford a car.  The fact that in doing so they would have reduced their own market for manufacturing cars would have escaped them in their microeconomic miasma.

Can't help those who don't want to read, FD.

Try again:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_labour_movement

I take it this is the kind of Australia you'd like to see:-

"By 1902, the Master and Servant Act 1823 had been modified to include forfeit of wages if the written or unwritten contract for work was unfulfilled. Absence from place of work was punishable by imprisonment of up to three months with or without hard labour. There were also penalties of up to £10 for anyone who harboured, concealed or re-employed a 'servant' who had deserted or absconded or absented himself from his duty implied in the 'contract'.[5] The Act was used against workers organising for better conditions from its inception until well after the first United Kingdom Trade Union Act 1871 was implemented, which secured the legal status of trade unions.

Under the Master and Servant Acts enacted in the Australian colonies in the 1840s, employees who left their employment without permission were subject to being hunted down under the Bushrangers Act. As little as one hour's absence by a free servant without permission could precipitate a punishment of prison or the treadmill. In the Melbourne jurisdiction, between 1835 and 1845, when labour shortages were acute, over 20% of prison inmates were convicted under the New South Wales Master and Servant Act for offences including leaving place of work without permission and being found in hotels. "

Reminiscent of the Old South and of Nazi Germany, eh?

It was a hard uphill struggle - but your children don't have to endure those conditions now.... of course, left to his own devices, Bossy would have come around like any good slave master... and made life a Utopia.    

If the unions aren't there - how are they seeking to destroy any industry?

Mysterious Ooga-Booga Voodoo?  Rigid control over the economy and over legislation?  Hordes of Storm Troopers?  A few Harsh Words in public about scabs and bad business practices that exploit people?  Having the damned gall to listen to complaints from exploited Outlanders who had the misfortune to work in one of those 'industries'?

You're not seeing Unionists under the beds, are you?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 25^th, 2020 at 9:28pm:


Aren't where Graps?

freediver wrote on Aug 25^th, 2020 at 8:10pm:


rubbish ... every right Ive listed was fought for by the unions here.

freediver wrote on Aug 26^th, 2020 at 6:13pm:


so they're not rights that exist in a non unionised country ... wanna try again?

freediver wrote on Aug 26^th, 2020 at 6:19pm:


Australia has lots of unions, even if membership is in decline ...

Now name one country with no unions where workers have the same or better work conditions?

freediver wrote on Aug 26^th, 2020 at 6:52pm:


It would be the first factual support to your argument ?

Because I won't go on pointless errands for you?

Quote:


Can anyone back this up?

https://www.fairwork.gov.au/about-us/legislation/the-fair-work-system/australias...

https://www.australianunions.org.au/union_achievements


Are you studying again, FD?  Are you Auggie in disguise?

You know full well that without group bargaining - i.e. Unions - these changes would not have come about.  Why would bossy jump in and say:- "I'm going to guarantee you pay rates and conditions of work, and these will steadily improve!"  unless forced to the negotiating table?

John Smith wrote on Aug 26^th, 2020 at 6:36pm:



Er... France. Union membership - under 8%.

Quote:


Doesn't surprise me. Being ignorant of economics seems to be a universal theme among those who parrot union propaganda.