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Unions want to kill non-Union industries (Read 10513 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #315 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:35pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:04pm:
Industries that don't abide by the rules and law of the land are committing suicide.... there endeth the lesson...


Except of course when they have sympathetic right wing governments in charge who are likely to turn a blind eye -  and/or when unions are barred from getting involved - like what FD wants.
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #316 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:47pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:35pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:04pm:
Industries that don't abide by the rules and law of the land are committing suicide.... there endeth the lesson...


Except of course when they have sympathetic right wing governments in charge who are likely to turn a blind eye -  and/or when unions are barred from getting involved - like what FD wants.


Merely slows down the rate of death... amazing how the very same ones who break the rules and seek to exploit massively are the ones who complain most bitterly when nobody wants to be exploited.  That is a form of suiciding your own business... but you can't tell fools.... they always know far better than you how to be totally stupid.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ayn Marx
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #317 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:48pm
 
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:04pm:
Industries that don't abide by the rules and law of the land are committing suicide.... there endeth the lesson...

The lesson isn’t that simple. Consult any half competent tax avoidance accountant/investment consultant. Not everyone is as blatent as James Packer in just asking to get caught.
On a simpler level I’m always amazed those who avoid paying tax are happy to use roads, public hospitals etc supported by gov’t finance.
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« Last Edit: Dec 1st, 2020 at 7:10pm by Ayn Marx »  

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Gnads
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #318 - Dec 2nd, 2020 at 7:05am
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:48pm:
Ye Grappler wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 1:04pm:
Industries that don't abide by the rules and law of the land are committing suicide.... there endeth the lesson...

The lesson isn’t that simple. Consult any half competent tax avoidance accountant/investment consultant. Not everyone is as blatent as James Packer in just asking to get caught.
On a simpler level I’m always amazed those who avoid paying tax are happy to use roads, public hospitals etc supported by gov’t finance.


Yes capitalists - who use socialism when it suits them.

Hypocrites the lot.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #319 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:05pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 12:18pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 8:38am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 19th, 2020 at 1:43pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 12th, 2020 at 6:29pm:
Basically, you assumed it was a random sample, for no reason whatsoever, other than your own ignorance and you inability to think about that the point of the "sampling" process was. I'll give you a hint, they were not conducting a scientific experiment.


Or perhaps it was because I actually read it?

From the report:

Quote:
The majority of employers involved in the Inquiry were selected randomly.  A smaller number of employers were selected on the basis of intelligence gathered from industry stakeholders, other government agencies and departments, media, community members and workplace participants. The FWO revisited noncompliant employers in subsequent seasons to assess compliance.
(page 4)

Do you have any more bullshit left to continue your deflection?

Or would you like to address the actual issue for once?

- Do you concede the report refutes your BS claim that farmers were complying with the law?

- Do you think this report vindicates the union's insistence on getting involved in this matter, and that it demonstrates that they were interested in something other than simply "wanting to kill non-union industries"?


Are you now claiming you weren't assuming?

Does it say how many of the randomly sampled employers broke the rules, and how?


Grasping much FD? What I "assumed" was that it is a reliable and robust report that accurately demonstrates widespread non-compliance of workplace law by employers in the fruit picking industry. I see nothing in it that indicates to me that this assumption is wrong. Do you? Oh thats right, you haven't read it.


So you present evidence. You finally realise that the evidence does not say what you think it says. So you declare it to be irrelevant.

I have no need to read your evidence. Your inability to make something of it is sufficient.

Are you now claiming you weren't assuming? Are you criticising me for not reading the evidence that you also did not read?

Quote:
Really FD, none of this makes a scrap of difference to the actual issue here - namely the fact that you were wrong to say "farmers are obeying the law"


If I said that Muslims obey our anti-terrorism laws, would you conclude that I am lying? Or are you a hypocrit?
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Gnads
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #320 - Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:06pm
 
Simply you are a no principles lying to get what you icehole.
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Politicians are like nappies; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
The most difficult choice a politician must ever make is whether to be a hypocrite or a liar.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #321 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 2:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:05pm:
So you present evidence. You finally realise that the evidence does not say what you think it says. So you declare it to be irrelevant.


The evidence says exactly what I've been saying it says all along - namely that there is widespread ripping off of fruit picking workers, in violation of our workplace laws. And it directly contradicts your BS claim.

What exact part of that are you still having difficulty with FD?

freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:05pm:
I have no need to read your evidence.


Of course you don't. Just like you have no need to read any evidence regardless of what BS claim you come up with next. Thats what you do FD - avoid evidence, and then endlessly deflect when its pointed out to you that the evidence refutes your BS claim.

freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:05pm:
Are you criticising me for not reading the evidence that you also did not read?


I read it FD. Thats why I know its relevant and it refutes your BS claim that farmers are obeying the law and that unions have no justification to get involved other than wanting to destroy non-union industries. You on the other hand ridiculed the idea that it was random (when it mostly was), after assuming a report on seasonal harvesting employers would include ship builders. So I wouldn't be ranting to much about not knowing the facts if I were you. Though I do amire your chutzpah.

freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2020 at 6:05pm:
If I said that Muslims obey our anti-terrorism laws, would you conclude that I am lying? Or are you a hypocrit?


Stupid and nonsensical analogy. I would obviously conclude nothing until I saw some actual evidence one way or the other.

But I can tell you this - if a survey was presented from a government body suggesting that disobeying of the laws was widespread, I wouldn't be trying to deflect the blame off muslims by demanding you declare whether or not you assumed it was a random sample, after assuming it was really a survey of ship builders.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #322 - Dec 9th, 2020 at 7:23pm
 
non-Union industries that do not abide by the rules are already dead - they are on life support and on death row waiting for the regulators to come strap them into their electric chair....

...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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freediver
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #323 - Dec 14th, 2020 at 7:16pm
 
Quote:
The evidence says exactly what I've been saying it says all along - namely that there is widespread ripping off of fruit picking workers, in violation of our workplace laws.


How widespread?

Quote:
I read it FD.


After several pages of telling lies about what was in there, you read it, then criticised me for not reading it. Right?

Quote:
You on the other hand ridiculed the idea that it was random (when it mostly was)


You lied about it being a random selection. Then you argued you had no reason not to believe it was random. Then you actually read it, and it turned out it was not random. Now you are still trying to polish the turd, and you have the hypocrisy to criticise me for not reading it.

Quote:
Stupid and nonsensical analogy. I would obviously conclude nothing until I saw some actual evidence one way or the other.


You just finished explaining how the evidence on this topic was beside the point. Does the evidence matter or not?
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #324 - Dec 15th, 2020 at 10:37am
 
.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #325 - Dec 15th, 2020 at 11:37am
 
.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #326 - Dec 16th, 2020 at 10:46am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2020 at 7:16pm:
Quote:
The evidence says exactly what I've been saying it says all along - namely that there is widespread ripping off of fruit picking workers, in violation of our workplace laws.


How widespread?

Quote:
I read it FD.


After several pages of telling lies about what was in there, you read it, then criticised me for not reading it. Right?

Quote:
You on the other hand ridiculed the idea that it was random (when it mostly was)


You lied about it being a random selection. Then you argued you had no reason not to believe it was random. Then you actually read it, and it turned out it was not random. Now you are still trying to polish the turd, and you have the hypocrisy to criticise me for not reading it.

Quote:
Stupid and nonsensical analogy. I would obviously conclude nothing until I saw some actual evidence one way or the other.


You just finished explaining how the evidence on this topic was beside the point. Does the evidence matter or not?


I'll just ignore your confused, incoherent rantings and redirect you, once again, to the actual point:

the report clearly demonstrates that you were wrong to claim 1. farmers are obeying the law, and 2. the unions only got involved too kill non-union industries (as if there was no justifiable reason, like standing up for ripped off workers).

I'm no longer posing the above as a question expecting, (as I did about 10 times) you to actually answer it - since its clear you won't. So I'll just put it there as clear, indisputable fact that you can feel free to tapdance around and make more incoherent deflections of.

On the other hand, if you want to actually have a go at addressing it, and even disputing it, feel free. But it would require you for the first time in months of tapdancing to address an actual topic. I won't hold my breath.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #327 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 9:06am
 
Quote:
the report clearly demonstrates that you were wrong


And yet you cannot even tell us what the report *actually* shows.

Why is that Gandalf?

Have you been lying to us about what the report says?
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Ye Grappler
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #328 - Dec 19th, 2020 at 11:28am
 
Taking back the 'industrial relations' asylum is a long and slow process - one at a time... until only the viable businesses are left.... as should be.

Met a couple who worked on a farm years ago - on holiday they were - they said their boss couldn't afford a pay rise for them, but had to settle for only $300,00 pa then after deducting his Land Cruiser and private school for the daughter etc.... poor old farmers..... the dairy farmer across the road and his family spent $100 a week on groceries.... his wife worked at Woolies in town as well.... so every cent of profit was pure gold.... and they were raking it in while crying poor....

Poor old farmers.....
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« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2020 at 1:01pm by Ye Grappler »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Unions want to kill non-Union industries
Reply #329 - Dec 23rd, 2020 at 9:03am
 
freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2020 at 9:06am:
Quote:
the report clearly demonstrates that you were wrong


And yet you cannot even tell us what the report *actually* shows.

Why is that Gandalf?

Have you been lying to us about what the report says?


What it "actually" shows is that your claim about unions and farmers "obeying the law" is complete bullshit. You don't even disagree with this. Instead you deflect with idiotic irrelevancies like this.

The report is there, I've linked it for you, it is so easy to find. I've invited you so many times to read it for yourself.

Why won't you FD?

Is it because when you do you will no longer be able to pretend that the report doesn't rubbish your BS claim about farmers obeying the laws and there being no reason for the unions to get involved other than wanting to kill non-union industries?

Can you explain why court action by the Fair Work Ombudsman succeeded in recovering over $1 million dollars from employers in owed wages for around 2500 workers (as a result of the report) - if those employers were, as you claimed, "obeying the law" - and the unions had no good justification to get involved?
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« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2020 at 9:20am by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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