Australian Politics Forum - Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency

Jasin

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #165 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 10:03am

aquascoot wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 9:30am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 9:11am:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 8:41am:

Maybe the United States and the United Kingdom
Will have ushered in the utopia
Probably not

BTW, utopias are for children... Like Santa Claus... We tell them about them because it makes them feel good... even if we know its a lie... its a compassionate lie...

so anyway, time for a utopian song... Imagine all the people, sharing all the world...

It's always the left that try to usher in the utopia though
Marx
Pol pot
Mao..... That's interesting because China is now adopting a completely anti-mao strategy

Yes. Mao got them out of trouble from all directions, even from the Soviets. But in the last few decades they seem to now be on top of it. Will be interesting how they go about things. Will they get their deserved justice for all that they've copped from USSR (Russia), Japan, Britain, Nationalists (Taiwan now) and surrounding enemies. Or will they 'over-achieve' and take more than they deserve? Not learning the lesson.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #166 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 10:07am

aquascoot wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 9:30am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 9:11am:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 8:41am:

Maybe the United States and the United Kingdom
Will have ushered in the utopia
Probably not

BTW, utopias are for children... Like Santa Claus... We tell them about them because it makes them feel good... even if we know its a lie... its a compassionate lie...

so anyway, time for a utopian song... Imagine all the people, sharing all the world...

It's always the left that try to usher in the utopia though
Marx
Pol pot
Mao..... That's interesting because China is now adopting a completely anti-mao strategy

Maybe Marx could be accused of utopianism...

Mao and Pol Pot just saw 'Marxism' as a means to power... They never intended to build a 'workers paradise'...

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46487 Gender:	Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency Reply #167 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 10:13am Northern Hemisphere Politics is never about the 'People'. A recent former British PM resigned because she came to the realisation that the 'Industry' comes first, not the people (regarding Brexit). ...this is why Australia has been set up. To represent the 'People' over the Industry. ...soon.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

athos Gold Member Offline Re-educate barbarians Posts: 6353 Hong Kong Gender:	Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency Reply #168 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 11:42am Wasn't Britain the main drug dealer in Hong Kong.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 80205 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency Reply #169 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 2:22pm Chinese President's underling in Oz:-
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #170 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 2:24pm

Jasin wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 10:03am:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 9:30am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 9:11am:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 8:41am:

Maybe the United States and the United Kingdom
Will have ushered in the utopia
Probably not

BTW, utopias are for children... Like Santa Claus... We tell them about them because it makes them feel good... even if we know its a lie... its a compassionate lie...

so anyway, time for a utopian song... Imagine all the people, sharing all the world...

It's always the left that try to usher in the utopia though
Marx
Pol pot
Mao..... That's interesting because China is now adopting a completely anti-mao strategy

Yes. Mao got them out of trouble from all directions, even from the Soviets. But in the last few decades they seem to now be on top of it. Will be interesting how they go about things. Will they get their deserved justice for all that they've copped from USSR (Russia), Japan, Britain, Nationalists (Taiwan now) and surrounding enemies. Or will they 'over-achieve' and take more than they deserve? Not learning the lesson.

Poor little China - hasn't done anything to anyone.... tell it to their neighbours... you reckon the Communists are better than the Nationalists? Like Korea, the differences are minimal..

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Frank

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #171 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 5:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:55pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:47pm:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:33pm:

not at all my friend.

i'm still hoping OZ can turn it around.

you cant seriously be saying we shoould look to the UK or USA as role models.
they are in their death throws.

they have no north star.

what is the purpose of the west nowadays?

500 years ago , they could devote a century to building a beautiful cathederal.

now they build public housing blocks out of besser blocks and fill them with ice addicts .

in china they build beautiful stuff and they put ice addicts up against the wall or send them for re-education

and you are saying we are on the "superior road to success"

surely you jest .

You are absolutely right. Nobody in West stands for the West any more because if they do, the mob will howl them down.
Who stands up to BLM and the SJW hyenas? Nobody dares. Not the universities, not the politicians, especially not 'conservative' politicians, not the 'free' (ie captured, agit prop) media.

Wait, god forbid, if we ever feel the full brunt of totalitarianism... Only then will we truly know what we've lost till its gone...

Cambridge University caved in to demands to de-platform and cancel the visiting fellowship of Jordan Petersen, a white man, because he was talking about personal responsibility, not the approved victimhood-mongering. The same university promoted an assoc prof to full professorship the week after she, an Indian woman, said repeatedly that white lives do not matter. The university barred him on the grounds of 'inclusive culture' but defended her on the basis of free expression.

If you criticise and bar him for not being 'inclusive' enough , you are right-on progressive, on the right side of history, nuanced enough about the limits of free speech.
If you criticise her, you are a 'far right hater' and enemy of free speech.

Totalitarianism has pervaded universities already.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 40524 Gender:	Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency Reply #172 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 5:05pm Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 7:32am: I see merit in all sides of this argument - that is what argument is for.... Classic straddling of the barbed wire fence with a foot in each paddock. Must hurt, pal....
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #173 - Jul 14^th, 2020 at 8:27pm

Frank wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 5:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:55pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:47pm:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:33pm:

not at all my friend.

i'm still hoping OZ can turn it around.

you cant seriously be saying we shoould look to the UK or USA as role models.
they are in their death throws.

they have no north star.

what is the purpose of the west nowadays?

500 years ago , they could devote a century to building a beautiful cathederal.

now they build public housing blocks out of besser blocks and fill them with ice addicts .

in china they build beautiful stuff and they put ice addicts up against the wall or send them for re-education

and you are saying we are on the "superior road to success"

surely you jest .

You are absolutely right. Nobody in West stands for the West any more because if they do, the mob will howl them down.
Who stands up to BLM and the SJW hyenas? Nobody dares. Not the universities, not the politicians, especially not 'conservative' politicians, not the 'free' (ie captured, agit prop) media.

Wait, god forbid, if we ever feel the full brunt of totalitarianism... Only then will we truly know what we've lost till its gone...

Cambridge University caved in to demands to de-platform and cancel the visiting fellowship of Jordan Petersen, a white man, because he was talking about personal responsibility, not the approved victimhood-mongering. The same university promoted an assoc prof to full professorship the week after she, an Indian woman, said repeatedly that white lives do not matter. The university barred him on the grounds of 'inclusive culture' but defended her on the basis of free expression.

If you criticise and bar him for not being 'inclusive' enough , you are right-on progressive, on the right side of history, nuanced enough about the limits of free speech.
If you criticise her, you are a 'far right hater' and enemy of free speech.

Totalitarianism has pervaded universities already.

Yes...

What we are witnessing is cowardice in the face of an enemy for the sins of our fathers...

And show me a former power without sin that can cast the first stone...

We have created democracy as a valve for grievance... But that doesn't mean we must take on the burden of guilt for the past... Only the responsibility to make the future more just than the past... And that is all...

Totalitarianism simply repeats the past (with Chinese characteristics, of course - as if that makes a difference) ...

And, y'know, like they say about the definition of madness...

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aquascoot

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #174 - Jul 15^th, 2020 at 10:26am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 8:27pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 14^th, 2020 at 5:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:55pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:47pm:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 13^th, 2020 at 9:33pm:

not at all my friend.

i'm still hoping OZ can turn it around.

you cant seriously be saying we shoould look to the UK or USA as role models.
they are in their death throws.

they have no north star.

what is the purpose of the west nowadays?

500 years ago , they could devote a century to building a beautiful cathederal.

now they build public housing blocks out of besser blocks and fill them with ice addicts .

in china they build beautiful stuff and they put ice addicts up against the wall or send them for re-education

and you are saying we are on the "superior road to success"

surely you jest .

You are absolutely right. Nobody in West stands for the West any more because if they do, the mob will howl them down.
Who stands up to BLM and the SJW hyenas? Nobody dares. Not the universities, not the politicians, especially not 'conservative' politicians, not the 'free' (ie captured, agit prop) media.

Wait, god forbid, if we ever feel the full brunt of totalitarianism... Only then will we truly know what we've lost till its gone...

Cambridge University caved in to demands to de-platform and cancel the visiting fellowship of Jordan Petersen, a white man, because he was talking about personal responsibility, not the approved victimhood-mongering. The same university promoted an assoc prof to full professorship the week after she, an Indian woman, said repeatedly that white lives do not matter. The university barred him on the grounds of 'inclusive culture' but defended her on the basis of free expression.

If you criticise and bar him for not being 'inclusive' enough , you are right-on progressive, on the right side of history, nuanced enough about the limits of free speech.
If you criticise her, you are a 'far right hater' and enemy of free speech.

Totalitarianism has pervaded universities already.

Yes...

What we are witnessing is cowardice in the face of an enemy for the sins of our fathers...

And show me a former power without sin that can cast the first stone...

We have created democracy as a valve for grievance... But that doesn't mean we must take on the burden of guilt for the past... Only the responsibility to make the future more just than the past... And that is all...

Totalitarianism simply repeats the past (with Chinese characteristics, of course - as if that makes a difference) ...

And, y'know, like they say about the definition of madness...

I don't know that it is so much that we are practicing cowardice
I think it is more that the conservatives side
Of politics has not been
Paying attention

The conservatives side of politics has been enormously successful through the free markets in lifting billions of people out of poverty
It really is an unprecedented miracle

But in the 30 or 40 years in which this has occurred
They were not paying attention to the takeover of the universities by the radical left

The radical left
And let's give them their due
Have taken over the centres of education
And so they had been able to educate an entire generation in the false notion that marxism is a benevolent system

Fully 50% of millennials in America believe that giving up democracy and reverting to a Marxist state would be a possible good for society

Really the conservative side should have been pushing back against this and demanding that people be educated properly for the last three or four decades

To now get to the state where
young people have virtually no gratitude for the miracle that their culture has bestowed upon them
That they thinks that the entire system should be torn up and the baby throwing out with the bathwater

This is an indictment on the conservatives side for not fulfilling their responsibilities

Can the conservatives take over the education system again and teach people about things such as personal responsibility
Contribution
Reverence
Nobility
Patriotism

You better hope so or the West is going to descend into a turmoil which will result in people screaming out for a totalitarian authoritarian regime to re-establish order

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Auggie

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #175 - Jul 15^th, 2020 at 11:04am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 12^th, 2020 at 3:35am:

We've had Chinese here for 170+ years - one of my great-grand mothers may have been Chinese from the look of her.... and my schoolyard nickname of Ming...

Many of them speak the same language and even the same accent..... many years ago as a young officer I had a Chinese bloke over me who spoke like you and me...

It's a funny world - and you need to differentiate between the Chinese CCP government and the Chinese people... they are good folk mostly.

I loathe that government, but I like the people - not their fault that their government has made a jihad out of economic assimilation of the West by providing them with low or interest free loans to buy here...

Not many look a gift horse in the mouth... but that doesn't mean they are all Chinese Supremacists... many want to get out of China proper and take their business interests with them, and women are the prime movers there... they no longer wish to be a traditional Chinese wife, and many business ladies, doctors and lawyers and such are single...

If anything more than the Hong Kong Insurrection will influence the Chinese CCP - the women will, eventually....

Here here.

I agree with everything you've said here.

It's the CCP not the Chinese people.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #176 - Jul 16^th, 2020 at 6:29am

aquascoot wrote on Jul 15^th, 2020 at 10:26am:

Can the conservatives take over the education system again and teach people about things such as personal responsibility
Contribution
Reverence
Nobility
Patriotism

All great virtues, great ideals... And, like all great virtues, they 'exist' only in a Platonic utopia, of which (according to Plato) this world is only a pale reflection.

You can't 'love' an ideal or 'the Chinese people' (or 'the Australian people' for that matter), they way you could, say, you love a person, even if both 'loves' are pack-loaded with the need for a huge dollop of cognitive dissonance.

And belief in utopias, ('workers' paradises' , 'eternal orderliness') are destined to deceive and fail... As is the fate of all utopiam, dopamine-fueled, departures from reality.

Utopia, after all, means 'no place' or nowhere...

Totalitarians (extreme left or right) cynically exploit the human imagination of a place where things are perfect and will never degenerate from that perfection (like, y'know... Heaven) but exploited not for the greater good, but for power and craving for it - the dark human instinct to dominate, and to often make miserable, the lives of others... In that way we're still primates.

Democracy turns away from the enforcement of utopian ideals because it lives in the real world and, by that, takes up the burden of not being perfect and is (or must be) capable of bearing dissent.

Democracy often fails to live up to its own standards, occasionally falls flat on its face and sometimes does not protect us from the 'vicissitudes of life', but nevertheless it must, by definition, face the wrath of those it fails (even if it tries its best to avoid criticism or its errors condemned).

Totalitarianism is relentless. There can be no dissent... How could there be? There can only be death for those who 'do not deserve its promised (but never delivered) utopia'.

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Auggie

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #177 - Jul 16^th, 2020 at 4:23pm

aquascoot wrote on Jul 15^th, 2020 at 10:26am:

The radical left
And let's give them their due
Have taken over the centres of education
And so they had been able to educate an entire generation in the false notion that marxism is a benevolent system

This is just bullshit - a right-wing talking point that has no basis in reality.

aquascoot wrote on Jul 15^th, 2020 at 10:26am:

Fully 50% of millennials in America believe that giving up democracy and reverting to a Marxist state would be a possible good for society

Again bullshit. In America if you ask the average person if they want America to be a socialist country, they'll say no; but then if you ask them:

"Do you support medicare-for-all, tuition-free college, a $15 minimum wage, etc.?"

They say "yes!"

A term like socialism has been bastardised so much that very few people know what it actually means.

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The Progressive President

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 40524 Gender:	Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency Reply #178 - Jul 16^th, 2020 at 7:19pm Conservatives have vacated the field. There is no intellectually credible voice for Western civilisation. Intellectuals have been completely captured by the shietmongers. Some politicians do sand up - metrosexual Macron, and good on him, and latterly Trump.
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aquascoot

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Re: Give every single HK citizen a chance of residency
Reply #179 - Jul 16^th, 2020 at 7:43pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 16^th, 2020 at 6:29am:

aquascoot wrote on Jul 15^th, 2020 at 10:26am:

Can the conservatives take over the education system again and teach people about things such as personal responsibility
Contribution
Reverence
Nobility
Patriotism

All great virtues, great ideals... And, like all great virtues, they 'exist' only in a Platonic utopia, of which (according to Plato) this world is only a pale reflection.

You can't 'love' an ideal or 'the Chinese people' (or 'the Australian people' for that matter), they way you could, say, you love a person, even if both 'loves' are pack-loaded with the need for a huge dollop of cognitive dissonance.

And belief in utopias, ('workers' paradises' , 'eternal orderliness') are destined to deceive and fail... As is the fate of all utopiam, dopamine-fueled, departures from reality.

Utopia, after all, means 'no place' or nowhere...

Totalitarians (extreme left or right) cynically exploit the human imagination of a place where things are perfect and will never degenerate from that perfection (like, y'know... Heaven) but exploited not for the greater good, but for power and craving for it - the dark human instinct to dominate, and to often make miserable, the lives of others... In that way we're still primates.

Democracy turns away from the enforcement of utopian ideals because it lives in the real world and, by that, takes up the burden of not being perfect and is (or must be) capable of bearing dissent.

Democracy often fails to live up to its own standards, occasionally falls flat on its face and sometimes does not protect us from the 'vicissitudes of life', but nevertheless it must, by definition, face the wrath of those it fails (even if it tries its best to avoid criticism or its errors condemned).

Totalitarianism is relentless. There can be no dissent... How could there be? There can only be death for those who 'do not deserve its promised (but never delivered) utopia'.

some of that i agree with.

but democracies are always going to decay into either bitter resentful jealous nihilism (the radical left) or authoritarian hierachies dominated by power and not by merit (the radical right).

that will always be their tendency.

and despite the ccp being a little too far on the dominated by power and not by merit scale.

the west is way way too far on the bitter, resentful, ungrateful, gimme, gimme, gimme scale.

can the western politicians sell "individual responsibility" to the electorate?
probably not.

most people are tired, scared and lazy.

they like the oedipal all smothering mother of the nanny state.

can the CCP transform into a meritocracy ?

if they truly hold sacred the values of contribution, reverence, respect, harmony, patriotism....they might just pull it off.

japan and south korea and singapore seem to aspire to this.

it would seem a mixture of eastern daoism, jainism, confuscian philosophy,

china is not north korea.

pres Xi doesnt grow fat whilst the people eat grass.
their standard of living is on the ascent.

chimp troop leaders spend a lot of time tending to the needs of subordinates. looking after infants, sharing, mutual grooming...it stops them being taken down. it is the idea of an emergent morality.

are the leaders of the CCP a bunch of mussolinis and stalins?

i dont think they are.
they are smarter then that.
they know their only hope is to keep the billion of their fellow citizens feeling nurtured .
i think its a smart move

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