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symbols for innovation are not the real thing (Read 1648 times)
freediver
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symbols for innovation are not the real thing
May 6th, 2020 at 12:43pm
 
This seems like a perennial issue that reactionaries like to bring up.

Sir lastnail wrote on May 5th, 2020 at 10:24pm:
freediver wrote on May 5th, 2020 at 10:20pm:
Bobby. wrote on May 5th, 2020 at 10:08pm:
freediver wrote on May 5th, 2020 at 9:59pm:
Innovation. Liberty. And sending mountains of dirt over to China. Basically, doing the jobs that pay buckets of money and letting the Chinese make our shirts for us.

All these past symbols of our prestige that you feel compelled to return to, or at least, make your fellow countrymen return to, are the things that used to be innovative, but are not any more.



What Innovation?

We're not like Germany that invests money into industry
to make the best lathes, tools, cars, robots and other devices
that sell at premium prices throughout the world.
We don't value add.
There is nothing to be proud of spending most of
our money getting into more and more debt over houses.


You are still thinking in symbols of innovation, not actual innovation. We can take a pile of dirt and turn it into $100000 plus salaries.

Who gives a bugger who has the bast lathe?


And you must still think the imported finished good is less than the raw materials it is made from Cheesy LOL


I think money talks, BS walks. Swapping dirt for cars sounds like a good idea to me.

Again, you are thinking in symbols. To you, shiny cars are a symbol of modern technology. I see a technology that has been around for over a century and is now being taken over by developing countries with cheap labour.

Why do you envy the people who are willing to work hard for a quarter of your salary to give you cheap goods? You should pity them, not seek to emulate them, or force others to emulate them.
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Sir lastnail
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #1 - May 6th, 2020 at 9:44pm
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 12:43pm:
I think money talks, BS walks. Swapping dirt for cars sounds like a good idea to me.

Again, you are thinking in symbols. To you, shiny cars are a symbol of modern technology. I see a technology that has been around for over a century and is now being taken over by developing countries with cheap labour.

Why do you envy the people who are willing to work hard for a quarter of your salary to give you cheap goods? You should pity them, not seek to emulate them, or force others to emulate them.


The problem is you are not swapping dirt for cars. If it was you wouldn't be going into massive amounts of debt to pay for the cars. So much for swapping cars for dirt Cheesy LOL
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #2 - May 6th, 2020 at 10:01pm
 
That's what people are complaining about. We give them dirt. They give us cars. And people complain that we don't turn the dirt into cars ourselves, as if 14 hours a day on a factory floor earning a pittance is some birthright the Chinese stole from us.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2020 at 11:00pm
 
No Freediver,
it's not the way you portray it at all.
Go to Germany and see scientists and engineers
inventing new products using computer aided design -
making top quality items in factories -
employing people in good jobs -
working 8 hour days not 14 hours.
See Germany exporting their products to an eagerly awaiting world -
even China uses their robots and technology in their industries.
Lots of it is computer controlled with software and firmware written in Germany.

Compare it to what we're doing - mining
and getting involved in housing ponzi schemes.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2020 at 11:05pm
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 10:01pm:
That's what people are complaining about. We give them dirt. They give us cars. And people complain that we don't turn the dirt into cars ourselves, as if 14 hours a day on a factory floor earning a pittance is some birthright the Chinese stole from us.


It is not a one-to-one exchange. Somehow you mistakenly believe that the finished good is less valuable than the raw materials use to make it and the debt that you used to pay for it is creating wealth for the country Cheesy LOL



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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #5 - May 7th, 2020 at 7:49am
 
Bobby, plenty of engineers are using CAD to invent new products right here in Australia. It's one of the more mundane parts of the job.

Nail, we cannot run the entire world economy from inside our borders. But we are in a position to pick and choose the more lucrative and interesting parts of it.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #6 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:07am
 
Many South American 'Workers' OWN the Companies they work within with still Wages much lower than the Managers and CEO's THEY EMPLOY.
What this does is keep the workers 'employed'.
Sunrice Aust is 'almost' like that with the Farmers owning the power, not the Management. I worked there once, the Farmers keep the bastards honest.

As for 'innovation', I know from experience that Australia only supports innovation only as far as having to sell out the  innovations to overseas, not manufacturing etc. Australian Innovation only goes as far as the 10 steps out of 30 steps needed to fulfill its full potential.

China buys up 80% of Trade Marks to shove them away for the 4 year legal duration of 'non-use', so only their 'products' are made and produced. After 4 years, most innovations become 'dated' and surpassed.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:10am
 


On a more basic level, the miner extracts iron ore from a mine.

And then he engages in trade, with a metal worker/blacksmith, for the iron ore.

In his furnace, the metal worker/blacksmith uses [his] specialised skills, to extract the iron [metal] from that ore.

Later he will fashion, things from the iron, into a plough tongue, a hammer, and knives and perhaps swords.

I'm talking about a society of men, maybe 1,000 years ago.



Of the two, the miner and metal worker/blacksmith, who had the higher level of skills ?

And who would have been more valued within his community ?

The laborer/miner ?

Or the metal worker/blacksmith ?



I would argue, that now, in 2020 not a lot has changed.

Among a group of persons [or nations], it is those with the higher skill levels which will always be viewed, within a society, as being more valued, as being more beneficial to the group.

The ability to innovate ?    Or the possession of useful skills ?

Aren't those two, more or less the same thing ?


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #8 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:24am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2020 at 12:43pm:

I think money talks, BS walks.

Swapping dirt for cars sounds like a good idea to me.




FD,

Usually when a person goes into a showroom, to buy a shiny new car, he has to exchange money for it, if he buys it.

Not dirt.



But sure, if someone wants to buy some dirt off of you [today], for money, that is convenient to you.

But just 'look around', there is an awful lot of 'dirt', spread over this earth.

And the person who is buying yours today, may choose to buy dirt off someone else tomorrow.

And he will still be making those shiny new cars.

And you could still be holding your bucket of dirt.




Resources can be valuable.

But 'skill sets' can be more valuable, ultimately.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #9 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:32am
 
Wow, I agree with Yadda!

Dirt always runs out, skills need not.

Except we are going to run out of both.
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Get the vaxx! 💉💉

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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #10 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:36am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 7:49am:
Bobby, plenty of engineers are using CAD to invent new products right here in Australia. It's one of the more mundane parts of the job.

Nail, we cannot run the entire world economy from inside our borders. But we are in a position to pick and choose the more lucrative and interesting parts of it.



FD,
I know a German engineer who does just that in Australia.
Unfortunately there just aren't enough of them.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #11 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:51am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:32am:

Wow, I agree with Yadda!





Get over it.

It isn't contagious.


Smiley



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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #12 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:32am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:36am:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 7:49am:
Bobby, plenty of engineers are using CAD to invent new products right here in Australia. It's one of the more mundane parts of the job.

Nail, we cannot run the entire world economy from inside our borders. But we are in a position to pick and choose the more lucrative and interesting parts of it.



FD,
I know a German engineer who does just that in Australia.
Unfortunately there just aren't enough of them.


There isn't 'enough' of any type of person in Australia, hence the high wages.

Quote:
But just 'look around', there is an awful lot of 'dirt', spread over this earth.

And the person who is buying yours today, may choose to buy dirt off someone else tomorrow.


The countries that make cars have completely changed over the last few decades, and will completely change again. But we have been making a packet from mining since the first gold rush, and will continue to do so into the future.

Why is everyone so jealous of the modern basket weaver?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:40am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 11:32am:
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:36am:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 7:49am:
Bobby, plenty of engineers are using CAD to invent new products right here in Australia. It's one of the more mundane parts of the job.

Nail, we cannot run the entire world economy from inside our borders. But we are in a position to pick and choose the more lucrative and interesting parts of it.



FD,
I know a German engineer who does just that in Australia.
Unfortunately there just aren't enough of them.


There isn't 'enough' of any type of person in Australia, hence the high wages.




He is in one of the few business ventures that innovates and sells
custom designed products all over the world.
It is an Australian success story and stands as a beacon
of guiding light to all the property developers,
real estate agents, and other useless lying parasites
who are wrecking our country and have put us into
debt for the next 100 years.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:54am
 
Property development and estate agency are the types of jobs we cannot farm out to cheap foreign labour. Car manufacturing is. No matter how advanced we get, you are still going to have an Australian offering you fries with that.

But they will be paid more than foreigners doing the same job.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #15 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:59am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 11:40am:
He is in one of the few business ventures that
innovates and sells custom designed products all over the world.
It is an Australian success story and stands as a beacon
of guiding light to all the property developers,
real estate agents, and other useless lying parasites
who are wrecking our country and have put us into
debt for the next 100 years.



freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 11:54am:
Property development and estate agency are the types of jobs we cannot farm out to cheap foreign labour. Car manufacturing is. No matter how advanced we get, you are still going to have an Australian offering you fries with that.

But they will be paid more than foreigners doing the same job.



The type of work that the business I refer to does -
is not something that can be done by cheap foreign labor.
That is a highly skilled engineering job -
the type we need have more investment in -
in Australia -
real jobs - good jobs.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #16 - May 7th, 2020 at 12:02pm
 
Do you think subsidising Holden and Ford would get us those jobs?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #17 - May 7th, 2020 at 12:03pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 11:54am:
Property development and estate agency are the types of jobs we cannot farm out to cheap foreign labour. Car manufacturing is. No matter how advanced we get, you are still going to have an Australian offering you fries with that.

But they will be paid more than foreigners doing the same job.


You could train a monkey to be a real estate agent. The only criteria is that it just needs to tell lies Wink Honestly if you think that is some sort of valuable skill set then no wonder you have the attitude that you have !
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #18 - May 7th, 2020 at 12:04pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 12:02pm:
Do you think subsidising Holden and Ford would get us those jobs?



There was no point in subsidising a company where
there are no strings attached.
Holden and Ford needed to be making something
different and better than anyone else.
Perhaps electric cars?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #19 - May 7th, 2020 at 12:07pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 12:02pm:
Do you think subsidising Holden and Ford would get us those jobs?


The real question you need to ask is why Germany has so many of its OWN car manufacturers that make cars and keep the profits in the country instead of sending them over to Detroit at the tax payers expense ? Perhaps it's because the German government and private banking sector does not prioritize non productive real-estate over productive engineering industries like they do here !
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #20 - May 7th, 2020 at 12:10pm
 
... symbol for Chinese government

...
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #21 - May 7th, 2020 at 2:30pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 12:03pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 11:54am:
Property development and estate agency are the types of jobs we cannot farm out to cheap foreign labour. Car manufacturing is. No matter how advanced we get, you are still going to have an Australian offering you fries with that.

But they will be paid more than foreigners doing the same job.


You could train a monkey to be a real estate agent. The only criteria is that it just needs to tell lies Wink Honestly if you think that is some sort of valuable skill set then no wonder you have the attitude that you have !


My point is that it is a skill that is needed. We cannot outsource burger flipping.

Quote:
There was no point in subsidising a company where
there are no strings attached.
Holden and Ford needed to be making something
different and better than anyone else.
Perhaps electric cars?


If you give them enough money, they will make anything you want, and also make it really shiny so you can call it innovation.

Quote:
The real question you need to ask is why Germany has so many of its OWN car manufacturers that make cars and keep the profits in the country instead of sending them over to Detroit at the tax payers expense ? Perhaps it's because the German government and private banking sector does not prioritize non productive real-estate over productive engineering industries like they do here !


Are you suggesting the German government subsidises the auto industry?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #22 - May 7th, 2020 at 6:49pm
 
FD
Quote:
If you give them enough money, they will make anything you want,
and also make it really shiny so you can call it innovation.



It's called - "running a successful modern business."
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #23 - May 7th, 2020 at 7:03pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 2:30pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 12:03pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 11:54am:
Property development and estate agency are the types of jobs we cannot farm out to cheap foreign labour. Car manufacturing is. No matter how advanced we get, you are still going to have an Australian offering you fries with that.

But they will be paid more than foreigners doing the same job.


You could train a monkey to be a real estate agent. The only criteria is that it just needs to tell lies Wink Honestly if you think that is some sort of valuable skill set then no wonder you have the attitude that you have !


My point is that it is a skill that is needed. We cannot outsource burger flipping.



That's if they possessed a skill which they do not ! Real estate agents have nothing to offer at all. Everything they offer can easily be duplicated online via ebay etc No different than auctioning an expensive car online etc. At least we won't have to put up with their photo-shopped images of some old dump made to look like a palace Wink
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #24 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:34pm
 
People don't buy houses online. Not even cars.

Do you have a point, or do you just really dislike real estate agents?

Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 6:49pm:
FD
Quote:
If you give them enough money, they will make anything you want,
and also make it really shiny so you can call it innovation.



It's called - "running a successful modern business."


Just like Ford and Holden did, until we cut off the handouts.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #25 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:44pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:34pm:
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 6:49pm:
FD
Quote:
If you give them enough money, they will make anything you want,
and also make it really shiny so you can call it innovation.



It's called - "running a successful modern business."


Just like Ford and Holden did, until we cut off the handouts.



Holden & Ford Australia couldn't run the business here the way they wanted to -
they were dictated to by Detroit -
and the Govt. put no conditions on the free handouts.

As I said - If they would have been allowed to make the best electric car in the world
at a price below $20k with a 10 year warranty on the
battery they might have achieved world domination.

Detroit didn't want that - they sabotaged the Australian companies.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #26 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:56pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:34pm:
People don't buy houses online. Not even cars.

Do you have a point, or do you just really dislike real estate agents?

Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 6:49pm:
FD
Quote:
If you give them enough money, they will make anything you want,
and also make it really shiny so you can call it innovation.



It's called - "running a successful modern business."


Just like Ford and Holden did, until we cut off the handouts.


Why do people need to listen to a real estate lying to them and doctored up pictures on their websites ?

Is that because the real estate institute are powerful government lobbyists and stamp out any competition ?

Tell me one person beside yourself that likes real estate agents - one of the most untrustworthy professions next to car salesmen !

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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #27 - May 7th, 2020 at 9:58pm
 
So Bobby thinks Detroit didn't want to make buckets of money, and Nail has somehow been triggered by the mention of real estate agents.

Do either of you have a point?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #28 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:08pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:58pm:
So Bobby thinks Detroit didn't want to make buckets of money, and Nail has somehow been triggered by the mention of real estate agents.

Do either of you have a point?



Freediver,
I don't know if you have worked in industry for a multinational company?
I have - they make absolutely terrible decisions
based on jealousy sometimes -
they don't want the Australian side of their business to show
up the incompetence of their main headquarters business.
They prevent Australia from doing research in areas
to come up with their own products for a whole variety of reasons.
In the end their own product ends up too expensive
and no one buys it so they lose business.
I've seen it so many times - it's heart breaking.
We actually have top engineers here and they
are constantly sabotaged by their overseas office.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #29 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:11pm
 
We are never going to have a conventional auto industry in Australia. We get paid too much - factory workers, engineers, all of them. It's not sabotage, they just cannot afford the best people, because they are all making a killing doing more lucrative things.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #30 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:13pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:08pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:58pm:
So Bobby thinks Detroit didn't want to make buckets of money, and Nail has somehow been triggered by the mention of real estate agents.

Do either of you have a point?



Freediver,
I don't know if you have worked in industry for a multinational company?
I have - they make absolutely terrible decisions
based on jealousy sometimes -
they don't want the Australian side of their business to show
up the incompetence of their main headquarters business.
They prevent Australia from doing research in areas
to come up with their own products for a whole variety of reasons.
In the end their own product ends up too expensive
and no one buys it so they lose business.
I've seen it so many times - it's heart breaking.
We actually have top engineers here and they
are constantly sabotaged by their overseas office.





freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:11pm:
We are never going to have a conventional auto industry in Australia. We get paid too much - factory workers, engineers, all of them. It's not sabotage, they just cannot afford the best people, because they are all making a killing doing more lucrative things.



I don't know about that.
Ford and Holden cherry picked their best Australian engineers
and they now work overseas for much more money.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #31 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm
 
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #32 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.

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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #33 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:38pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.



It's easy to assume that the loss of certain industries is based on the availability of cheap labour. It isn't a correct view. To entertain such a thought one would have to assume equal rates of productivity. They certainly aren't. Productivity in China for instance is only 1/7 of ours. The higher wages earned are a reflection of this.

Freediver is close without actually saying the words. Nails as usual, demonstrates his ignorance and stupidity. Absolute cost plays only a minor part. Industries relocate primarily due to opportunity cost. They move to where there is a higher comparative advantage rather than a higher absolute advantage.

We focus more today on primary and tertiary industry rather than secondary industry simply because the opportunity cost is lower. A return to making singlets and undies would require giving up an equivalent investment in digging coal and fattening cattle. This is true because capital is not infinite. The opportunity cost of producing undies is the forgone production of fat cattle. Truth is that we make more profit from fat cattle.

It doesn't even matter if we can produce undies and singlets at a lower absolute cost than the imported items. They will still be imported as long as the opportunity cost of forgoing fat cattle is higher than the value obtained from the undies.

David Ricardo had comparative advantage and opportunity cost figured out two centuries ago but still the nonsense of cheap labour pervades.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #34 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:45pm
 
And local companies which outsource labour overseas are shooting themselves in the foot domestically. Lower wages in Australia means lower disposable income, its a race to the bottom.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #35 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:58pm
 
...looks like the pressure is on Australia to come up with its own 'National Innovation' rather than rely on Politics from the UK & USA to keep 'carrying' it.


So what's it going to be?
Become the best Submarine Builder in the World?
...anything but, at the moment.  Roll Eyes

How's it feel Australia - having been the 'Best' at something (Corona Free) for once?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #36 - May 8th, 2020 at 12:24am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 7:49am:
Bobby, plenty of engineers are using CAD to invent new products right here in Australia. It's one of the more mundane parts of the job.

Nail, we cannot run the entire world economy from inside our borders. But we are in a position to pick and choose the more lucrative and interesting parts of it.


Only if we can get capital to do so. And that requires a government with imagination.

Yes, to develop, you need governments. To some, this is unthinkable.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #37 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:44am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.



By "not on a level playing field" do you mean we are getting paid too much?

Quote:
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.


Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105

Quote:
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.


Should we bring in a billion or so immigrants so we can get a few more?

Quote:
It's easy to assume that the loss of certain industries is based on the availability of cheap labour. It isn't a correct view. To entertain such a thought one would have to assume equal rates of productivity.


No, one wouldn't. If we were willing to work for half as much, Ford and Holden would be expanding their factories here, not pulling out. I don't have to know anything about actual productivity to say this.

Quote:
Absolute cost plays only a minor part. Industries relocate primarily due to opportunity cost. They move to where there is a higher comparative advantage rather than a higher absolute advantage.


What's the difference?

Quote:
It doesn't even matter if we can produce undies and singlets at a lower absolute cost than the imported items. They will still be imported as long as the opportunity cost of forgoing fat cattle is higher than the value obtained from the undies.


Incorrect. If there was money to be made making singlets locally, someone would do it. Whether you think of it in terms of absolute cost or opportunity cost, it still boils down to making a profit. It's just different ways of thinking about the same thing.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #38 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:56am
 
FD,
Quote:
Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105



Interesting but there's not that much difference.
USA is higher.
I wonder if they take all the 2 hour a week jobs into account?

Germany does well without paying people peanuts.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #39 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:58am
 
And we do even better.

So what is your point? That you can still have a high salary, despite having a high salary? Or that manufacturing shiny symbols for innovation is more important than actual innovation?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #40 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:59am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 7:58am:
And we do even better.

So what is your point? That you can still have a high salary, despite having a high salary? Or that manufacturing shiny symbols for innovation is more important than actual innovation?



Word games -
why can't we be as good as Germany?

You tell me.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #41 - May 8th, 2020 at 8:01am
 
Because we are better?

Why do you think German is so wonderful? Is it when you see your reflection in the door of a Merc? Or because they have lots of lathes?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #42 - May 8th, 2020 at 8:21am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 8:01am:
Because we are better?

Why do you think German is so wonderful? Is it when you see your reflection in the door of a Merc? Or because they have lots of lathes?



Germany is the power house of Europe.
Even with all the compliance cost burden of the European Union
they have outshone everyone else -
their economy is the largest -
their exports of high tech goods are sent all around the world.
Even though their luxury cars are expensive people still buy them in huge quantities.

If we want to do better in Australia we need to look at how winners win.

The days of digging stuff out of the ground and letting other
countries vale add to it by 10,000% are over.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #43 - May 8th, 2020 at 9:47am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 7:44am:
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.



By "not on a level playing field" do you mean we are getting paid too much?

Quote:
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.


Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105

Quote:
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.


Should we bring in a billion or so immigrants so we can get a few more?

Quote:
It's easy to assume that the loss of certain industries is based on the availability of cheap labour. It isn't a correct view. To entertain such a thought one would have to assume equal rates of productivity.


No, one wouldn't. If we were willing to work for half as much, Ford and Holden would be expanding their factories here, not pulling out. I don't have to know anything about actual productivity to say this.

Then you would be wrong. Productivity is the sole consistent driver of wages growth. If wages are halved it doesn't matter a fuuk if productivity is also half. You've missed the point by long shot.


Quote:
Absolute cost plays only a minor part. Industries relocate primarily due to opportunity cost. They move to where there is a higher comparative advantage rather than a higher absolute advantage.


What's the difference?

If you don't know the difference I suggest you purchase a decent textbook. Opportunity cost is generally covered in the first chapter due to it's high importance.


Quote:
It doesn't even matter if we can produce undies and singlets at a lower absolute cost than the imported items. They will still be imported as long as the opportunity cost of forgoing fat cattle is higher than the value obtained from the undies.


Incorrect. If there was money to be made making singlets locally, someone would do it. Whether you think of it in terms of absolute cost or opportunity cost, it still boils down to making a profit. It's just different ways of thinking about the same thing.

Untrue, and grossly untrue. Your suggestion relies on an unlimited supply of capital. Unfortunately, capital is limited and precious. For this reason industry will gravitate to those activities where opportunity cost is the lowest.

It's a bit like Freediver if he had $10 million of spare capital. He may have a choice of making ball stroking machines or making blow updolls. The opportunity cost of choosing blowup dolls is the forgone profit from making ball strokers. The opportunity cost of making ball strokers is the forgone profit from making blowup dolls. The end solution will gravitate to which one presents the lowest opportunity cost.



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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #44 - May 8th, 2020 at 10:20am
 
Yes but think of the added bonus to our economy if we had a part of our society who would work for peanuts and be compensated with a right to pump out as many babies as they want, regardless if they can afford to feed them peanuts or not. We can always send them overseas as fleeing refugees and illegal immigrants like Sperms to an Egg.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #45 - May 8th, 2020 at 12:57pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 8:21am:
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 8:01am:
Because we are better?

Why do you think German is so wonderful? Is it when you see your reflection in the door of a Merc? Or because they have lots of lathes?



Germany is the power house of Europe.
Even with all the compliance cost burden of the European Union
they have outshone everyone else -
their economy is the largest -
their exports of high tech goods are sent all around the world.
Even though their luxury cars are expensive people still buy them in huge quantities.

If we want to do better in Australia we need to look at how winners win.

The days of digging stuff out of the ground and letting other
countries vale add to it by 10,000% are over.


So you think the auto industry is more symbolic of innovation than mining, on account of your ability to see your reflection in the door of a Merc but not a haul truck, so we should switch to that? Even though we actually have higher salaries than the Germans?

China's GDP is 3X that of Germany's. Do you think China is 3X the winner that Germany is?

Jasin wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 10:20am:
Yes but think of the added bonus to our economy if we had a part of our society who would work for peanuts and be compensated with a right to pump out as many babies as they want, regardless if they can afford to feed them peanuts or not. We can always send them overseas as fleeing refugees and illegal immigrants like Sperms to an Egg.


We call them backpackers. They are a bit like Mexicans, only better looking.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #46 - May 8th, 2020 at 1:23pm
 
Quote:
Then you would be wrong. Productivity is the sole consistent driver of wages growth. If wages are halved it doesn't matter a fuuk if productivity is also half. You've missed the point by long shot.


So I am wrong because I 'missed your point', not because I am actually wrong?

Quote:
If you don't know the difference I suggest you purchase a decent textbook. Opportunity cost is generally covered in the first chapter due to it's high importance.


Most economic textbooks don't feel the need to mention it. As far as I can tell it is just a slightly different way of thinking about the same concepts. Though the people using the term like to turn it into something reovlutionary.

Quote:
Untrue, and grossly untrue. Your suggestion relies on an unlimited supply of capital.


Not it doesn't.

Quote:
It's a bit like Freediver if he had $10 million of spare capital. He may have a choice of making ball stroking machines or making blow updolls. The opportunity cost of choosing blowup dolls is the forgone profit from making ball strokers. The opportunity cost of making ball strokers is the forgone profit from making blowup dolls. The end solution will gravitate to which one presents the lowest opportunity cost.


You are considering opportunity cost in the absence of an understanding of economics - ie assuming everything else is fixed. If both were profitable, both will be done. If we do not have enough capital or labour to do both, then the value of labour or capital will increase until one ceases to be profitable.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #47 - May 8th, 2020 at 1:33pm
 
I bet it will be Australia's ART Industry (currently the worst affected by international and domestic Lock Down) that will have the greatest Transition after Lock Down. An Industry that has to change in a Big way if it is to survive.

To move away from the Celebrity Media Archibald and such things as 'Old Historic European' works and 'Simple-minded Abstract American' works. To embrace again the Australian style of Dreaming Big from Burley-Griffith's works the size of Cities, to a Continent woven by Aboriginals to become a Garden. The Harbour Bridge, the Opera House.

To discover the true Australian 'Style' beyond just British, Aboriginal, American, etc. Something 'everyone' can share in a take a part of. Something NEW!!!

Politics alas, will Dream Small (like their minds sometimes) and fracture into many small Independent 'Nations' within Australia where their 'wealth' is spread out more across the board of a 'Common' population growth.
Hopefully it doesn't happen like Yugoslavia though.  Shocked
...which is going better now in many ways.
The War was obviously a shedding of the old skin.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #48 - May 8th, 2020 at 2:38pm
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 1:23pm:
Quote:
Then you would be wrong. Productivity is the sole consistent driver of wages growth. If wages are halved it doesn't matter a fuuk if productivity is also half. You've missed the point by long shot.


So I am wrong because I 'missed your point', not because I am actually wrong?

You are wrong on both counts. The point being that paying someone half the rate has the same cost if their productivity is half also.


Quote:
If you don't know the difference I suggest you purchase a decent textbook. Opportunity cost is generally covered in the first chapter due to it's high importance.


Most economic textbooks don't feel the need to mention it. As far as I can tell it is just a slightly different way of thinking about the same concepts. Though the people using the term like to turn it into something reovlutionary.

On the contrary, just about all decent textbooks will have it addressed in the very first chapter. I don't know where you formulate the idea that it may be revolutionary. Ibn Khaldun described the concept way back in the 14th century and David Ricardo wrote extensively on the topic two centuries ago.


Quote:
Untrue, and grossly untrue. Your suggestion relies on an unlimited supply of capital.


Not it doesn't.

So capital is unlimited is it.


Quote:
It's a bit like Freediver if he had $10 million of spare capital. He may have a choice of making ball stroking machines or making blow updolls. The opportunity cost of choosing blowup dolls is the forgone profit from making ball strokers. The opportunity cost of making ball strokers is the forgone profit from making blowup dolls. The end solution will gravitate to which one presents the lowest opportunity cost.


You are considering opportunity cost in the absence of an understanding of economics - ie assuming everything else is fixed. If both were profitable, both will be done. If we do not have enough capital or labour to do both, then the value of labour or capital will increase until one ceases to be profitable.

Not quite. One will cease because the opportunity cost is too high and the capital will be redeployed at a lower opportunity cost.


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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #49 - May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 7:56am:
FD,
Quote:
Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105



Interesting but there's not that much difference.
USA is higher.
I wonder if they take all the 2 hour a week jobs into account?

Germany does well without paying people peanuts.


The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #50 - May 8th, 2020 at 4:19pm
 
Quote:
Not quite. One will cease because the opportunity cost is too high and the capital will be redeployed at a lower opportunity cost.


You are saying the same thing with different words crocodile. But you also made an incorrect assumption about what I was saying in order to pretend you are disagreeing with me.

Quote:
So capital is unlimited is it.


I just told you this is wrong. Why are you asking me again?

Quote:
I don't know where you formulate the idea that it may be revolutionary.


I did not do this. Take the time to read and understand what I actually post.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #51 - May 8th, 2020 at 5:22pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm:
The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.

4 Qatars make a dollar.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #52 - May 8th, 2020 at 6:26pm
 
chimera wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 5:22pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm:
The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.

4 Qatars make a dollar.

Grin Grin
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #53 - May 8th, 2020 at 9:03pm
 
chimera wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 5:22pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm:
The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.

4 Qatars make a dollar.


Two Wongs don't make a White, but that's not the point.

How does a Muslim country like Qatar end up as number 4? Higher than Australia?

Higher wages, higher productivity, they even have smart, value-added industries like airlines and global media networks.

Bobby? Is this the sort of small, smart, sustainable country you're talking about?

No auto manufacturers, granted. I don't know about lathes. But is Qatar the sort of country we should aspire to being?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #54 - May 8th, 2020 at 9:13pm
 
Quatarians live in fear of their Royal Leader.
He rules with an iron 'online' grip.
He plays at being a big boy on the international scene.
There is literally no privacy. The establishment knows all.
A state of living under Gestapo, more than Nazi.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #55 - May 8th, 2020 at 10:49pm
 
Jasin wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 9:13pm:
Quatarians live in fear of their Royal Leader.
He rules with an iron 'online' grip.
He plays at being a big boy on the international scene.
There is literally no privacy. The establishment knows all.
A state of living under Gestapo, more than Nazi.


Definitely, but look at the Nazis. Lathes, Volkswagens, autobahns.

Japs too. How do you think all those countries became great again?

Countries industrialise through an "iron", as you say, grip.

An interesting exception is Russia. They're now a resource country, like us, but they developed under Stalin.

What happened to that?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #56 - May 8th, 2020 at 10:59pm
 
This is an interesting discussion, so I don't want to derail it. But at some point, a political question comes into play.

FD has always said it's about Freeedom, but a cold hard look at that proves the opposite to be true.

By FD's reasoning here, the Qatarists - high productivity, high GDP, high average wages, a free media, overcrowded shopping malls filled with stuff - a successful country by all economic measures, bar one.

They're a totalitarian Islamist regime.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #57 - May 9th, 2020 at 7:33am
 
Statistics can be equalised for resource richness.
"Russia has the largest reserves and is the largest exporter of natural gas. It has the second largest coal reserves, the eighth largest oil reserves, and is one of the largest producers of oil."

Qatar has say 3m. people, Saudi 34, Russia 145 and Oz 25m. All have oil /gas/coal/iron resources.

On personal income if all had Qatar's population:
Qatar $3,300 , Saudi $21,000, Russia $18,000 and oz $24,000. 
Maybe this reflects relative personal freedoms . That could be extended to free banking policies and inversely to military costs.

Japan population 127m. , Germany 83m.
On Qatar population Japan is $85,000 , Germany $67,000.
Without gas / coal it's not comparable with oz. And without resources where would oz be placed?   
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #58 - May 9th, 2020 at 10:43am
 
chimera wrote on May 9th, 2020 at 7:33am:
Statistics can be equalised for resource richness.
"Russia has the largest reserves and is the largest exporter of natural gas. It has the second largest coal reserves, the eighth largest oil reserves, and is one of the largest producers of oil."

Qatar has say 3m. people, Saudi 34, Russia 145 and Oz 25m. All have oil /gas/coal/iron resources.

On personal income if all had Qatar's population:
Qatar $3,300 , Saudi $21,000, Russia $18,000 and oz $24,000. 
Maybe this reflects relative personal freedoms . That could be extended to free banking policies and inversely to military costs.

Japan population 127m. , Germany 83m.
On Qatar population Japan is $85,000 , Germany $67,000.
Without gas / coal it's not comparable with oz. And without resources where would oz be placed?   


Indeed. Note what Japan.and Germany have that Qatar doesn't.

No, not Freeeeedom.

Population.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #59 - May 9th, 2020 at 11:06am
 
Then China at Qatar population would be $480,000 personal income , India $189,000.
The ultimate jackpot is for Venezuela with largest oil reserves to have a life-president dynasty , with the population gone to Mexico and mercenary army .  The tricky part is taking away the army's freedom to enter the presidential citadel.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #60 - May 9th, 2020 at 11:19am
 
chimera wrote on May 9th, 2020 at 11:06am:
Then China at Qatar population would be $480,000 personal income , India $189,000.
The ultimate jackpot is for Venezuela with largest oil reserves to have a life-president dynasty , with the population gone to Mexico and mercenary army .  The tricky part is taking away the army's freedom to enter the presidential citadel.


The trickiest part, I think, would be taking away Uncle's freedom to enter the presidential citadel.

Ask Karzai for details.
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chimera
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #61 - May 9th, 2020 at 11:41am
 
Karzai says he spent $.17bn. on freedom weapons.

Venezuela GDP if spent on the army is $482bn while Uncle spends $748bn . However all is not lost , with China-India-Iran as back-up , then it's $733 bn. in Mexican stand-off at the Venezuela bad-lands.
The diplomacy may be beyond the Venezuela generals and colonels and so keeps them in line.   

Of course , Venezuela's GDP-defences are about 65% of US total defence and US won't commit that much for regime change.  Venezuela personal income should remain at No. 1 position. 

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« Last Edit: May 9th, 2020 at 2:06pm by chimera »  
 
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #62 - May 9th, 2020 at 9:30pm
 
chimera wrote on May 9th, 2020 at 11:41am:
Karzai says he spent $.17bn. on freedom weapons.

Venezuela GDP if spent on the army is $482bn while Uncle spends $748bn . However all is not lost , with China-India-Iran as back-up , then it's $733 bn. in Mexican stand-off at the Venezuela bad-lands.
The diplomacy may be beyond the Venezuela generals and colonels and so keeps them in line.   

Of course , Venezuela's GDP-defences are about 65% of US total defence and US won't commit that much for regime change.  Venezuela personal income should remain at No. 1 position. 



Good point, Chimera. No one's saying you can't do it cheaper. Uncle saved a packet on the money Mother was spending on her empire by giving them all nylon stockings and chewing gum.

The Chows hope to do the same with Belts and Roads.

That's the good thing about empires.They just keep getting cheaper and cheaper - as long as you've got the surplus population to march in with their boots and their guns.

Increased productivity, innit.

The Chows don't even do that, they just march in to work. Not unlike the Seven Little Dwarves with their shovel and a pick and a walking stick, yes?

If only Qatar had a few more of them, no?
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« Last Edit: May 9th, 2020 at 9:41pm by Mattyfisk »  
 
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chimera
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #63 - May 10th, 2020 at 6:56am
 
Naturally , Uncle would have thrown in Venezuela for mother's finest hour if she had only asked. Russia would understand and just talk to the lawyers, not Rudi but quid pro quo is what talks.  Still , freedom is the bottom-line and Venezuela is better off per capita being a US state.
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