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symbols for innovation are not the real thing (Read 1649 times)
freediver
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #45 - May 8th, 2020 at 12:57pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 8:21am:
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 8:01am:
Because we are better?

Why do you think German is so wonderful? Is it when you see your reflection in the door of a Merc? Or because they have lots of lathes?



Germany is the power house of Europe.
Even with all the compliance cost burden of the European Union
they have outshone everyone else -
their economy is the largest -
their exports of high tech goods are sent all around the world.
Even though their luxury cars are expensive people still buy them in huge quantities.

If we want to do better in Australia we need to look at how winners win.

The days of digging stuff out of the ground and letting other
countries vale add to it by 10,000% are over.


So you think the auto industry is more symbolic of innovation than mining, on account of your ability to see your reflection in the door of a Merc but not a haul truck, so we should switch to that? Even though we actually have higher salaries than the Germans?

China's GDP is 3X that of Germany's. Do you think China is 3X the winner that Germany is?

Jasin wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 10:20am:
Yes but think of the added bonus to our economy if we had a part of our society who would work for peanuts and be compensated with a right to pump out as many babies as they want, regardless if they can afford to feed them peanuts or not. We can always send them overseas as fleeing refugees and illegal immigrants like Sperms to an Egg.


We call them backpackers. They are a bit like Mexicans, only better looking.
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freediver
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #46 - May 8th, 2020 at 1:23pm
 
Quote:
Then you would be wrong. Productivity is the sole consistent driver of wages growth. If wages are halved it doesn't matter a fuuk if productivity is also half. You've missed the point by long shot.


So I am wrong because I 'missed your point', not because I am actually wrong?

Quote:
If you don't know the difference I suggest you purchase a decent textbook. Opportunity cost is generally covered in the first chapter due to it's high importance.


Most economic textbooks don't feel the need to mention it. As far as I can tell it is just a slightly different way of thinking about the same concepts. Though the people using the term like to turn it into something reovlutionary.

Quote:
Untrue, and grossly untrue. Your suggestion relies on an unlimited supply of capital.


Not it doesn't.

Quote:
It's a bit like Freediver if he had $10 million of spare capital. He may have a choice of making ball stroking machines or making blow updolls. The opportunity cost of choosing blowup dolls is the forgone profit from making ball strokers. The opportunity cost of making ball strokers is the forgone profit from making blowup dolls. The end solution will gravitate to which one presents the lowest opportunity cost.


You are considering opportunity cost in the absence of an understanding of economics - ie assuming everything else is fixed. If both were profitable, both will be done. If we do not have enough capital or labour to do both, then the value of labour or capital will increase until one ceases to be profitable.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #47 - May 8th, 2020 at 1:33pm
 
I bet it will be Australia's ART Industry (currently the worst affected by international and domestic Lock Down) that will have the greatest Transition after Lock Down. An Industry that has to change in a Big way if it is to survive.

To move away from the Celebrity Media Archibald and such things as 'Old Historic European' works and 'Simple-minded Abstract American' works. To embrace again the Australian style of Dreaming Big from Burley-Griffith's works the size of Cities, to a Continent woven by Aboriginals to become a Garden. The Harbour Bridge, the Opera House.

To discover the true Australian 'Style' beyond just British, Aboriginal, American, etc. Something 'everyone' can share in a take a part of. Something NEW!!!

Politics alas, will Dream Small (like their minds sometimes) and fracture into many small Independent 'Nations' within Australia where their 'wealth' is spread out more across the board of a 'Common' population growth.
Hopefully it doesn't happen like Yugoslavia though.  Shocked
...which is going better now in many ways.
The War was obviously a shedding of the old skin.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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crocodile
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #48 - May 8th, 2020 at 2:38pm
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 1:23pm:
Quote:
Then you would be wrong. Productivity is the sole consistent driver of wages growth. If wages are halved it doesn't matter a fuuk if productivity is also half. You've missed the point by long shot.


So I am wrong because I 'missed your point', not because I am actually wrong?

You are wrong on both counts. The point being that paying someone half the rate has the same cost if their productivity is half also.


Quote:
If you don't know the difference I suggest you purchase a decent textbook. Opportunity cost is generally covered in the first chapter due to it's high importance.


Most economic textbooks don't feel the need to mention it. As far as I can tell it is just a slightly different way of thinking about the same concepts. Though the people using the term like to turn it into something reovlutionary.

On the contrary, just about all decent textbooks will have it addressed in the very first chapter. I don't know where you formulate the idea that it may be revolutionary. Ibn Khaldun described the concept way back in the 14th century and David Ricardo wrote extensively on the topic two centuries ago.


Quote:
Untrue, and grossly untrue. Your suggestion relies on an unlimited supply of capital.


Not it doesn't.

So capital is unlimited is it.


Quote:
It's a bit like Freediver if he had $10 million of spare capital. He may have a choice of making ball stroking machines or making blow updolls. The opportunity cost of choosing blowup dolls is the forgone profit from making ball strokers. The opportunity cost of making ball strokers is the forgone profit from making blowup dolls. The end solution will gravitate to which one presents the lowest opportunity cost.


You are considering opportunity cost in the absence of an understanding of economics - ie assuming everything else is fixed. If both were profitable, both will be done. If we do not have enough capital or labour to do both, then the value of labour or capital will increase until one ceases to be profitable.

Not quite. One will cease because the opportunity cost is too high and the capital will be redeployed at a lower opportunity cost.


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Mattyfisk
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #49 - May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 7:56am:
FD,
Quote:
Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105



Interesting but there's not that much difference.
USA is higher.
I wonder if they take all the 2 hour a week jobs into account?

Germany does well without paying people peanuts.


The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #50 - May 8th, 2020 at 4:19pm
 
Quote:
Not quite. One will cease because the opportunity cost is too high and the capital will be redeployed at a lower opportunity cost.


You are saying the same thing with different words crocodile. But you also made an incorrect assumption about what I was saying in order to pretend you are disagreeing with me.

Quote:
So capital is unlimited is it.


I just told you this is wrong. Why are you asking me again?

Quote:
I don't know where you formulate the idea that it may be revolutionary.


I did not do this. Take the time to read and understand what I actually post.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #51 - May 8th, 2020 at 5:22pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm:
The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.

4 Qatars make a dollar.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #52 - May 8th, 2020 at 6:26pm
 
chimera wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 5:22pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm:
The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.

4 Qatars make a dollar.

Grin Grin
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #53 - May 8th, 2020 at 9:03pm
 
chimera wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 5:22pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 2:59pm:
The Muslim nation of Qatar comes in at number 4.

I'm curious.

4 Qatars make a dollar.


Two Wongs don't make a White, but that's not the point.

How does a Muslim country like Qatar end up as number 4? Higher than Australia?

Higher wages, higher productivity, they even have smart, value-added industries like airlines and global media networks.

Bobby? Is this the sort of small, smart, sustainable country you're talking about?

No auto manufacturers, granted. I don't know about lathes. But is Qatar the sort of country we should aspire to being?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #54 - May 8th, 2020 at 9:13pm
 
Quatarians live in fear of their Royal Leader.
He rules with an iron 'online' grip.
He plays at being a big boy on the international scene.
There is literally no privacy. The establishment knows all.
A state of living under Gestapo, more than Nazi.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #55 - May 8th, 2020 at 10:49pm
 
Jasin wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 9:13pm:
Quatarians live in fear of their Royal Leader.
He rules with an iron 'online' grip.
He plays at being a big boy on the international scene.
There is literally no privacy. The establishment knows all.
A state of living under Gestapo, more than Nazi.


Definitely, but look at the Nazis. Lathes, Volkswagens, autobahns.

Japs too. How do you think all those countries became great again?

Countries industrialise through an "iron", as you say, grip.

An interesting exception is Russia. They're now a resource country, like us, but they developed under Stalin.

What happened to that?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #56 - May 8th, 2020 at 10:59pm
 
This is an interesting discussion, so I don't want to derail it. But at some point, a political question comes into play.

FD has always said it's about Freeedom, but a cold hard look at that proves the opposite to be true.

By FD's reasoning here, the Qatarists - high productivity, high GDP, high average wages, a free media, overcrowded shopping malls filled with stuff - a successful country by all economic measures, bar one.

They're a totalitarian Islamist regime.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #57 - May 9th, 2020 at 7:33am
 
Statistics can be equalised for resource richness.
"Russia has the largest reserves and is the largest exporter of natural gas. It has the second largest coal reserves, the eighth largest oil reserves, and is one of the largest producers of oil."

Qatar has say 3m. people, Saudi 34, Russia 145 and Oz 25m. All have oil /gas/coal/iron resources.

On personal income if all had Qatar's population:
Qatar $3,300 , Saudi $21,000, Russia $18,000 and oz $24,000. 
Maybe this reflects relative personal freedoms . That could be extended to free banking policies and inversely to military costs.

Japan population 127m. , Germany 83m.
On Qatar population Japan is $85,000 , Germany $67,000.
Without gas / coal it's not comparable with oz. And without resources where would oz be placed?   
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« Last Edit: May 9th, 2020 at 7:57am by chimera »  
 
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #58 - May 9th, 2020 at 10:43am
 
chimera wrote on May 9th, 2020 at 7:33am:
Statistics can be equalised for resource richness.
"Russia has the largest reserves and is the largest exporter of natural gas. It has the second largest coal reserves, the eighth largest oil reserves, and is one of the largest producers of oil."

Qatar has say 3m. people, Saudi 34, Russia 145 and Oz 25m. All have oil /gas/coal/iron resources.

On personal income if all had Qatar's population:
Qatar $3,300 , Saudi $21,000, Russia $18,000 and oz $24,000. 
Maybe this reflects relative personal freedoms . That could be extended to free banking policies and inversely to military costs.

Japan population 127m. , Germany 83m.
On Qatar population Japan is $85,000 , Germany $67,000.
Without gas / coal it's not comparable with oz. And without resources where would oz be placed?   


Indeed. Note what Japan.and Germany have that Qatar doesn't.

No, not Freeeeedom.

Population.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #59 - May 9th, 2020 at 11:06am
 
Then China at Qatar population would be $480,000 personal income , India $189,000.
The ultimate jackpot is for Venezuela with largest oil reserves to have a life-president dynasty , with the population gone to Mexico and mercenary army .  The tricky part is taking away the army's freedom to enter the presidential citadel.
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