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symbols for innovation are not the real thing (Read 1701 times)
Bobby.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #30 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:13pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:08pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 9:58pm:
So Bobby thinks Detroit didn't want to make buckets of money, and Nail has somehow been triggered by the mention of real estate agents.

Do either of you have a point?



Freediver,
I don't know if you have worked in industry for a multinational company?
I have - they make absolutely terrible decisions
based on jealousy sometimes -
they don't want the Australian side of their business to show
up the incompetence of their main headquarters business.
They prevent Australia from doing research in areas
to come up with their own products for a whole variety of reasons.
In the end their own product ends up too expensive
and no one buys it so they lose business.
I've seen it so many times - it's heart breaking.
We actually have top engineers here and they
are constantly sabotaged by their overseas office.





freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:11pm:
We are never going to have a conventional auto industry in Australia. We get paid too much - factory workers, engineers, all of them. It's not sabotage, they just cannot afford the best people, because they are all making a killing doing more lucrative things.



I don't know about that.
Ford and Holden cherry picked their best Australian engineers
and they now work overseas for much more money.
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freediver
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #31 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm
 
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?
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Bobby.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #32 - May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.

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crocodile
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #33 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:38pm
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.



It's easy to assume that the loss of certain industries is based on the availability of cheap labour. It isn't a correct view. To entertain such a thought one would have to assume equal rates of productivity. They certainly aren't. Productivity in China for instance is only 1/7 of ours. The higher wages earned are a reflection of this.

Freediver is close without actually saying the words. Nails as usual, demonstrates his ignorance and stupidity. Absolute cost plays only a minor part. Industries relocate primarily due to opportunity cost. They move to where there is a higher comparative advantage rather than a higher absolute advantage.

We focus more today on primary and tertiary industry rather than secondary industry simply because the opportunity cost is lower. A return to making singlets and undies would require giving up an equivalent investment in digging coal and fattening cattle. This is true because capital is not infinite. The opportunity cost of producing undies is the forgone production of fat cattle. Truth is that we make more profit from fat cattle.

It doesn't even matter if we can produce undies and singlets at a lower absolute cost than the imported items. They will still be imported as long as the opportunity cost of forgoing fat cattle is higher than the value obtained from the undies.

David Ricardo had comparative advantage and opportunity cost figured out two centuries ago but still the nonsense of cheap labour pervades.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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rhino
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #34 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:45pm
 
And local companies which outsource labour overseas are shooting themselves in the foot domestically. Lower wages in Australia means lower disposable income, its a race to the bottom.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #35 - May 7th, 2020 at 11:58pm
 
...looks like the pressure is on Australia to come up with its own 'National Innovation' rather than rely on Politics from the UK & USA to keep 'carrying' it.


So what's it going to be?
Become the best Submarine Builder in the World?
...anything but, at the moment.  Roll Eyes

How's it feel Australia - having been the 'Best' at something (Corona Free) for once?
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #36 - May 8th, 2020 at 12:24am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 7:49am:
Bobby, plenty of engineers are using CAD to invent new products right here in Australia. It's one of the more mundane parts of the job.

Nail, we cannot run the entire world economy from inside our borders. But we are in a position to pick and choose the more lucrative and interesting parts of it.


Only if we can get capital to do so. And that requires a government with imagination.

Yes, to develop, you need governments. To some, this is unthinkable.
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freediver
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #37 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:44am
 
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.



By "not on a level playing field" do you mean we are getting paid too much?

Quote:
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.


Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105

Quote:
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.


Should we bring in a billion or so immigrants so we can get a few more?

Quote:
It's easy to assume that the loss of certain industries is based on the availability of cheap labour. It isn't a correct view. To entertain such a thought one would have to assume equal rates of productivity.


No, one wouldn't. If we were willing to work for half as much, Ford and Holden would be expanding their factories here, not pulling out. I don't have to know anything about actual productivity to say this.

Quote:
Absolute cost plays only a minor part. Industries relocate primarily due to opportunity cost. They move to where there is a higher comparative advantage rather than a higher absolute advantage.


What's the difference?

Quote:
It doesn't even matter if we can produce undies and singlets at a lower absolute cost than the imported items. They will still be imported as long as the opportunity cost of forgoing fat cattle is higher than the value obtained from the undies.


Incorrect. If there was money to be made making singlets locally, someone would do it. Whether you think of it in terms of absolute cost or opportunity cost, it still boils down to making a profit. It's just different ways of thinking about the same thing.
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Bobby.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #38 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:56am
 
FD,
Quote:
Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105



Interesting but there's not that much difference.
USA is higher.
I wonder if they take all the 2 hour a week jobs into account?

Germany does well without paying people peanuts.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #39 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:58am
 
And we do even better.

So what is your point? That you can still have a high salary, despite having a high salary? Or that manufacturing shiny symbols for innovation is more important than actual innovation?
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Bobby.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #40 - May 8th, 2020 at 7:59am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 7:58am:
And we do even better.

So what is your point? That you can still have a high salary, despite having a high salary? Or that manufacturing shiny symbols for innovation is more important than actual innovation?



Word games -
why can't we be as good as Germany?

You tell me.
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freediver
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #41 - May 8th, 2020 at 8:01am
 
Because we are better?

Why do you think German is so wonderful? Is it when you see your reflection in the door of a Merc? Or because they have lots of lathes?
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Bobby.
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #42 - May 8th, 2020 at 8:21am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 8:01am:
Because we are better?

Why do you think German is so wonderful? Is it when you see your reflection in the door of a Merc? Or because they have lots of lathes?



Germany is the power house of Europe.
Even with all the compliance cost burden of the European Union
they have outshone everyone else -
their economy is the largest -
their exports of high tech goods are sent all around the world.
Even though their luxury cars are expensive people still buy them in huge quantities.

If we want to do better in Australia we need to look at how winners win.

The days of digging stuff out of the ground and letting other
countries vale add to it by 10,000% are over.
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crocodile
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #43 - May 8th, 2020 at 9:47am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2020 at 7:44am:
Bobby. wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:26pm:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2020 at 10:18pm:
Their best, not the best?

A company not firing all of it's staff doesn't prove anything Bobby.

Was is your point with the auto industry? Is it a symbol of innovation for you? Would you have Australians take lower salaries to prop up a local auto industry just so we can "be innovative"?



Not really - we don't work for a bowl of rice every day
and we have expensive health and safety standards -
it's hard to compete when you're not on a level playing field.
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.



By "not on a level playing field" do you mean we are getting paid too much?

Quote:
Also - Germany does well without paying people peanuts.


Australia ranks 6th in the world by salary. Germany ranks 16th.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=105

Quote:
We still have niche industries where we do well but not enough of them.


Should we bring in a billion or so immigrants so we can get a few more?

Quote:
It's easy to assume that the loss of certain industries is based on the availability of cheap labour. It isn't a correct view. To entertain such a thought one would have to assume equal rates of productivity.


No, one wouldn't. If we were willing to work for half as much, Ford and Holden would be expanding their factories here, not pulling out. I don't have to know anything about actual productivity to say this.

Then you would be wrong. Productivity is the sole consistent driver of wages growth. If wages are halved it doesn't matter a fuuk if productivity is also half. You've missed the point by long shot.


Quote:
Absolute cost plays only a minor part. Industries relocate primarily due to opportunity cost. They move to where there is a higher comparative advantage rather than a higher absolute advantage.


What's the difference?

If you don't know the difference I suggest you purchase a decent textbook. Opportunity cost is generally covered in the first chapter due to it's high importance.


Quote:
It doesn't even matter if we can produce undies and singlets at a lower absolute cost than the imported items. They will still be imported as long as the opportunity cost of forgoing fat cattle is higher than the value obtained from the undies.


Incorrect. If there was money to be made making singlets locally, someone would do it. Whether you think of it in terms of absolute cost or opportunity cost, it still boils down to making a profit. It's just different ways of thinking about the same thing.

Untrue, and grossly untrue. Your suggestion relies on an unlimited supply of capital. Unfortunately, capital is limited and precious. For this reason industry will gravitate to those activities where opportunity cost is the lowest.

It's a bit like Freediver if he had $10 million of spare capital. He may have a choice of making ball stroking machines or making blow updolls. The opportunity cost of choosing blowup dolls is the forgone profit from making ball strokers. The opportunity cost of making ball strokers is the forgone profit from making blowup dolls. The end solution will gravitate to which one presents the lowest opportunity cost.



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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Jasin
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Re: symbols for innovation are not the real thing
Reply #44 - May 8th, 2020 at 10:20am
 
Yes but think of the added bonus to our economy if we had a part of our society who would work for peanuts and be compensated with a right to pump out as many babies as they want, regardless if they can afford to feed them peanuts or not. We can always send them overseas as fleeing refugees and illegal immigrants like Sperms to an Egg.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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