Australian Politics Forum - The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal

Bobby.

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #15 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:28pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 8:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 8:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:08pm:

Got no money for fire equipment but plenty for useless submarines Sad

We should have bought proven nuclear submarines from France
not diesel subs.

And we would have lost them for years at a time as they are refitted for refueling. We lack a nuclear industry, so we would need to pay the French considerably more for the subs. Roll Eyes

Diesel subs derive from old WW2 technology.
They are a waste of time and could never survive a modern war.

Sure of that, Bobby? Really? And on what evidence do you base that opinion?

You know that:
they normally resurface very day to draw in air for the
diesel motor to recharge the batteries.
I know they can go for about 5 days underwater in special circumstances.
However - having to surface makes them vulnerable to attack.

Do you deny that?

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Sir lastnail

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #16 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:33pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 8:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:08pm:

Got no money for fire equipment but plenty for useless submarines Sad

We should have bought proven nuclear submarines from France
not diesel subs.

And we would have lost them for years at a time as they are refitted for refueling. We lack a nuclear industry, so we would need to pay the French considerably more for the subs. Roll Eyes

You are at a competitive and military disadvantage with deisel subs so why bother having them at all ?

You are at a disadvantage with no subs which is what is being proposed as the alternative. Nuclear subs require 6-12 months to refit and refuel. Are you prepared for that?

Diesel subs have advantages over nuke subs. They are inherently quieter and have long lifes/range. Must we trade that for nuke subs that spend 50% of their life in dock?

If what you say is true nobody would have nuclear power subs and yet this is the preferred choice for most of the powerful nations. The Russians had them back in the 50's Wink

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Jasin

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #17 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:40pm

So you just have to be a ship that chases them for 5 days and then hit em like a harpoon to a whale?
That's a ridiculous act to allow them to be diesel.
Be like popping carnival ducks every time they come up for a prize to be won.
It kinda negates the true ability of what a Submarine's true potential is meant to be.

We need nuclear submarines that are designed and built by us to our specifications and needs as Australian. Cutting out all 'modifications' and their costs to meet Australian Standards for starters.
We designed and built the submersible to take James Cameron down into the Marianna Trench 11km's worth of water load upon it.
I'm pretty sure we can pay for more such innovators and builders to come up with cost effective submarines.

...or are all Australians just over-inflated buffoons that couldn't change a light bulb?

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #18 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:43pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 8:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 8:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:08pm:

Got no money for fire equipment but plenty for useless submarines Sad

We should have bought proven nuclear submarines from France
not diesel subs.

And we would have lost them for years at a time as they are refitted for refueling. We lack a nuclear industry, so we would need to pay the French considerably more for the subs. Roll Eyes

Diesel subs derive from old WW2 technology.
They are a waste of time and could never survive a modern war.

Sure of that, Bobby? Really? And on what evidence do you base that opinion?

You know that:
they normally resurface very day to draw in air for the
diesel motor to recharge the batteries.
I know they can go for about 5 days underwater in special circumstances.
However - having to surface makes them vulnerable to attack.

Do you deny that?

I think your "special circumstances" might be more common than you appear to think, Bobby... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46487 Gender:	Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal Reply #19 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:47pm Whaddaya mean Brian?
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Brian Ross

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #20 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 3:31pm

Jasin wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:47pm:

Whaddaya mean Brian?

I think that it is obvious that no diesel powered submarine would surface or even SNORT during wartime if there is a possibility that enemy craft would be present, so the supposed "exceptional circumstances" would become normal and it would remain submerged for longer than the estimated 24 hours.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46487 Gender:	Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal Reply #21 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 3:42pm Ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks. So unless these Diesels have better staying power. Then its just Whaling Season.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Brian Ross

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #22 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 4:03pm

Jasin wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 3:42pm:

Ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks.
So unless these Diesels have better staying power.
Then its just Whaling Season.

When? Where? Please be specific with a case of a "ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks."

ASW is much harder than most novels/movies would have you believe. Look at the ASW efforts of the Royal Navy duing the Falklands/Malvinas war in 1982. The RN was supposedly the most experience at ASW in the world and it failed dismally to find and sink any Argentine submarines. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72209 Gender:	Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal Reply #23 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 5:03pm this is another of abbots ill conceived thought bubbles that he rushed through in order to get the sound byte in time for the election
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Bobby.

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #24 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 5:05pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 4:03pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 3:42pm:

Ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks.
So unless these Diesels have better staying power.
Then its just Whaling Season.

When? Where? Please be specific with a case of a "ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks."

ASW is much harder than most novels/movies would have you believe. Look at the ASW efforts of the Royal Navy duing the Falklands/Malvinas war in 1982. The RN was supposedly the most experience at ASW in the world and it failed dismally to find and sink any Argentine submarines. Roll Eyes

They can't even get crews for all the 6 Collins subs.
No one wants to go in their iron coffins.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46487 Gender:	Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal Reply #25 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 7:33pm It's obvious that this nation does not have a Naval Plan.
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Brian Ross

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #26 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 7:42pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 2:33pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 12:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 8:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 15^th, 2020 at 7:08pm:

Got no money for fire equipment but plenty for useless submarines Sad

We should have bought proven nuclear submarines from France
not diesel subs.

And we would have lost them for years at a time as they are refitted for refueling. We lack a nuclear industry, so we would need to pay the French considerably more for the subs. Roll Eyes

You are at a competitive and military disadvantage with deisel subs so why bother having them at all ?

You are at a disadvantage with no subs which is what is being proposed as the alternative. Nuclear subs require 6-12 months to refit and refuel. Are you prepared for that?

Diesel subs have advantages over nuke subs. They are inherently quieter and have long lifes/range. Must we trade that for nuke subs that spend 50% of their life in dock?

If what you say is true nobody would have nuclear power subs and yet this is the preferred choice for most of the powerful nations. The Russians had them back in the 50's Wink

Other countries? They developed Uranium enrichment industries. We abandoned ours' in the 1960s. We lack the ability to refuel any nuclear submarines. Uranium enrichment is not something you wave into being with a magic wand. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #27 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 7:48pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 5:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 4:03pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 3:42pm:

Ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks.
So unless these Diesels have better staying power.
Then its just Whaling Season.

When? Where? Please be specific with a case of a "ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks."

ASW is much harder than most novels/movies would have you believe. Look at the ASW efforts of the Royal Navy duing the Falklands/Malvinas war in 1982. The RN was supposedly the most experience at ASW in the world and it failed dismally to find and sink any Argentine submarines. Roll Eyes

They can't even get crews for all the 6 Collins subs.
No one wants to go in their iron coffins.

No, the crew issue is completely separate and revolves around the mining boom. They never intended to crew, except in emergency all six COLLINS class. Improve their conditions and allow more leave and more crew would be willing to serve. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #28 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 7:50pm

Jasin wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 7:33pm:

It's obvious that this nation does not have a Naval Plan.

It has one and a Naval strategy. Indeed, one of the reasons why they were able to purchase the CANBERRA class LPHs was because the Army supported the Naval decision to purchase them to be a core of the Naval Strategy. What is missiing is large enough "lots" of a class for naval yards to keep those skilled in building them, building them.

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: The $50 Billion French Submarine Deal
Reply #29 - Jan 16^th, 2020 at 8:47pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 7:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 5:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 4:03pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 16^th, 2020 at 3:42pm:

Ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks.
So unless these Diesels have better staying power.
Then its just Whaling Season.

When? Where? Please be specific with a case of a "ships have hunted Subs over long distances for weeks."

ASW is much harder than most novels/movies would have you believe. Look at the ASW efforts of the Royal Navy duing the Falklands/Malvinas war in 1982. The RN was supposedly the most experience at ASW in the world and it failed dismally to find and sink any Argentine submarines. Roll Eyes

They can't even get crews for all the 6 Collins subs.
No one wants to go in their iron coffins.

No, the crew issue is completely separate and revolves around the mining boom. They never intended to crew, except in emergency all six COLLINS class. Improve their conditions and allow more leave and more crew would be willing to serve. Roll Eyes

What about the Collins sub that sunk out of control and was nearly lost with all the crew?
It was a miracle that they got back alive.
3 sailors from that crew left the Navy with PTSD after that.
It's a dangerous job even in peacetime -
that's why they can't find crews.

In a real war I doubt that any crew would come back alive.
I think 70% of the German U boat sailors died in WW2.

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