Australian Politics Forum - Blair Cottrell loses appeal

polite_gandalf

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #75 - Jan 7^th, 2020 at 10:19am

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2020 at 7:38pm:

Quote:
The actual law, as we well know, says otherwise.

How so?

The law that was invoked here is specifically about religious discrimination. No one says nazism is a religion, not even you. It is a political ideology. Whereas everyone, (except perhaps you - depending on your level of confusion on any given day), but more importantly the law agrees that Islam is a religion. If Blair Cottrel performed his little stunt to demonize communists or capitalists, or even nazis - he wouldn't have been charged and convicted - certainly not under this particular religious discrimination law, and most probably not under any other law.

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2020 at 7:38pm:

What is the moral difference? That Muslims get butthurt but Nazis don't? Or that Muhammad established his thousand year Reich but Hitler failed?

What nazis FD? You just finished explaining to us all how Nazism no longer exists. "Dead and buried" was the term you used. You mocked the idea that any current day fascists could be considered "nazis". You are clearly implying that apart from "a few clubs on the internet", there are no nazis left to offend. Islam, on the other hand, counts some half a million adherents in Australia alone, and around 2 billion worldwide.

The "moral difference" should be obvious.

If you want to make the hypocricy argument, why would you use as your comparison, the example of a group you yourself don't even believes exists any more? That makes no sense at all. However what does make sense is your insistence of always hysterically comparing Islam to nazis.

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« Last Edit: Jan 7^th, 2020 at 10:31am by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #76 - Jan 7^th, 2020 at 11:06am

Quote:

The law that was invoked here is specifically about religious discrimination. No one says nazism is a religion, not even you. It is a political ideology. Whereas everyone, (except perhaps you - depending on your level of confusion on any given day), but more importantly the law agrees that Islam is a religion.

Most people who look at it objectively consaider Islam to be a religious, political and military movement.

Quote:

What nazis FD? You just finished explaining to us all how Nazism no longer exists. "Dead and buried" was the term you used. You mocked the idea that any current day fascists could be considered "nazis". You are clearly implying that apart from "a few clubs on the internet", there are no nazis left to offend.

Have you ever met one?

Quote:

The "moral difference" should be obvious.

Does it have something to do with the number of followers of the ideology?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #77 - Jan 7^th, 2020 at 2:47pm

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2020 at 11:06am:

Most people who look at it objectively consaider Islam to be a religious, political and military movement.

Ridiculous. But anyway, the only relevant point here is that practically all people (as well as the courts) would agree that this law we are talking about applies to Islam, but not to Nazism. I think even you could not disagree with that.

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2020 at 11:06am:

Have you ever met one?

No. And in case this is your strawman (I can't think of any other reason you would ask such a question), I am not basing my argument on the premise that there definitely are nazis out there.

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2020 at 11:06am:

Does it have something to do with the number of followers of the ideology?

Thats certainly a big part of it. By your own argument (that practically no actual nazis exist), mocking nazism won't actually offend any nazis, whereas mocking Islam does inevitably offend actual real life muslims. Is that the be-all and end-all argument for protecting Islam from any criticism? Of course not, but it spells out a very obvious moral difference which should be taken into account before you start dismissing anyone who supports protecting Islam but not nazis from criticism - as hypocrites.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #78 - Jan 7^th, 2020 at 3:35pm

Quote:

No. And in case this is your strawman (I can't think of any other reason you would ask such a question), I am not basing my argument on the premise that there definitely are nazis out there.

So you acknowledge there might not actually be any Nazis out there, but you are nitpicking on whether Nazism is "dead and buried" as a political force?

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Jasin Moderator Online Posts: 46488 Gender:	Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal Reply #79 - Jan 7^th, 2020 at 4:03pm Nazism against Jews is nothing compared to what the Mafia will do to the Moslems. ...ever been on a construction site in Sydney where the Italians and the Moslems are working? Accidents do happen in the workplace.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #80 - Jan 24^th, 2020 at 3:10pm

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2020 at 3:35pm:

Quote:

No. And in case this is your strawman (I can't think of any other reason you would ask such a question), I am not basing my argument on the premise that there definitely are nazis out there.

So you acknowledge there might not actually be any Nazis out there, but you are nitpicking on whether Nazism is "dead and buried" as a political force?

Where on earth did you get that from? Presumably you are confusing my arguments for someone elses. I never said anything one way or the other about whether I think nazism is "dead and buried" as a political force.

I was trying to interpret your argument. You were the one who brought up the idea that nazism being "dead and buried" is why criticism of nazism should be treated differently to criticism of Islam. Its there in black and white in reply# 68. But then you completely contradicted yourself by confirming you think the two should be equally subject to carte-blanche criticism (reply# 74). So you obviously have some confusion there that you need to clear up.

As for what I actually said, my point was about the moral difference between attacking nazis and attacking muslims. Regardless of whether or not nazism is "dead and buried" as a political force, or whether or not nazis still exist - the relevant point here is that there are unquestionably far more muslims both in Australia and around the world, and unlike Nazism, is universally categorised as a recognised religion. Islam, unlike nazism, is infused in our own culture - we all interact with muslims every day, eat their food and cater for their religious requirements in schools and in the workplace. You *seemed* to agree with me in reply# 68 that this difference actually counts for something in terms of how we criticise Islam compared to how we criticise Nazism. Most people would count this as a moral difference - since criticism of Islam can (and does) have adverse consequences for real life people living in the community. While criticism of nazism affects far fewer people - and according to you affects practically no one.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal Reply #81 - Jan 29^th, 2020 at 2:20pm FD, can you confirm whether or not you have run away from this discussion, or in your favourite style, have you actually responded to this but in another thread that I'm supposed to run around looking for?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #82 - Jan 29^th, 2020 at 2:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 29^th, 2020 at 2:20pm:

FD, can you confirm whether or not you have run away from this discussion, or in your favourite style, have you actually responded to this but in another thread that I'm supposed to run around looking for?

maybe you need to act a bit quicker to catch him gandy...he has jellyfish to worry about....

as a gmod shouldnt you be here more often?????

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47367 At my desk.	Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal Reply #83 - Jan 29^th, 2020 at 7:22pm Quote: You were the one who brought up the idea that nazism being "dead and buried" is why criticism of nazism should be treated differently to criticism of Islam. Can you quote me?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal Reply #84 - Jan 29^th, 2020 at 9:27pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2020 at 2:31pm: So you don't believe that Islam should be treated the same way as nazism when it comes to how much criticism should be allowed against it? freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2020 at 7:11pm: Of course not. Nazism is dead and buried.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47367 At my desk.	Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal Reply #85 - Jan 29^th, 2020 at 9:52pm Yeah sorry about that. I overlooked the "allowed" bit. I think it should be open slather on both for criticism.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal Reply #86 - Jan 29^th, 2020 at 11:05pm freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2020 at 9:52pm: Yeah sorry about that. I overlooked the "allowed" bit. I think it should be open slather on both for criticism. Fine. but how is saying "nazism is dead and buried" relevant to that?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #87 - Feb 1^st, 2020 at 9:34am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 29^th, 2020 at 11:05pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2020 at 9:52pm:

Yeah sorry about that. I overlooked the "allowed" bit. I think it should be open slather on both for criticism.

Fine. but how is saying "nazism is dead and buried" relevant to that?

I think the extent of criticism should reflect the magnitude of the threat. As you already know, Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. People should stop being so shy in criticising it. If they are not afraid to offend Nazis, even the polite ones, why are they afraid of offending Muslims? It's like the opposite of Brian's view, who thinks that every criticism of Islam needs to be carefully wrapped in a similar sounding criticism of Christianity. It's not like the Nazis are ever going to get the upper hand again.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #88 - Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 4:34pm

1. Hardly anyone agrees with you that Islam is the greatest threat to freedom and democracy - So your position is obviously flawed in assuming that everyone starts from the position that Islam is a massive threat - but inexplicably still don't want to offend Islam.

2. The reason that people are hesistant to offend muslims should be obvious to anyone who has even a cursory knowledge the negative impacts of Islamophobia - especially on women.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Blair Cottrell loses appeal
Reply #89 - Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 5:47pm

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Hardly anyone agrees with you that Islam is the greatest threat to freedom and democracy

And yet no-one has suggested a threat they consider to be greater, except for your absurd attempt to group all threats to freedom and democracy, including Islam, together into a vague and meaningless bundle.

Quote:

So your position is obviously flawed in assuming that everyone starts from the position that Islam is a massive threat

Where do I "assume" that?

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but inexplicably still don't want to offend Islam.

It's not inexplicable. Most people, when they find out about Islam are disgusted by it, except for the few spineless apeasers. Everyone else offers platitudes out of ignorance of what Islam is, thanks in part to the turd polishing efforts from people like you, Brian, Abu etc. There are probably also some who think common sense will somehow prevail by remaining silent in the face of what they know is evil - particularly westerners who have had their liberties handed to them on a platter.

Quote:

2. The reason that people are hesistant to offend muslims should be obvious to anyone who has even a cursory knowledge the negative impacts of Islamophobia - especially on women.

Does it make the bruises hurt more?

Seriously, you could not be more hypocritical on this. There are literally millions of women around the world living in abject misery thanks to the dictates of Islam. Some even in Australia. Yet you have the gall to use the plight of women as a token against Islamophobia.

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