freediver wrote on Nov 18
th, 2019 at 3:05pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17
th, 2019 at 2:57pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 17
th, 2019 at 2:28pm:
Quote:The answer to both questions is China's top-down decision to implement capitalist practices WITHOUT democracy.
How does that, rather than the ability of party members to vote in changes without massive bloodshed, explain their ability to achieve "seismic purges" without massive bloodshed? Are you suggesting capitalism prevents violence?
Also, the CPC's internal democracy came prior to the transition to capitalism. The transition would not have been possible without it. So not only does your answer not make sense, it rests on a refusal to acknowledge reality.
Quote:That is one of the central lessons of the early 21st century.
You never got round to explaining what the lesson is. Is the lesson nothing more than a bunch of stuff that happened? That we must hide the wood with lots of trees?
Quote:Democracy is one thing, free trade is another. Technological innovation and improved human conditions is another thing too. The Chinese have been able to improve their living standards without democracy or a free economy, just as the Soviets once did under Stalin.
So you are literally using Russia to disprove the link between democracy, capitalism and wealth? Do you realise how stupid that looks?
Are you still denying that the Chinese communist party is internally democratic? And adding to that a denial that they are transitioning to capitalism?
When does reality ever creep in to your world view?
The CPC's transition to capitalism was preceded by the Cultural Revolution, dear.
If you're trying to win an argument by referring to the internal structure of the Chinese Communist Party, you've missed the entire point of democracy.
That's about voters choosing between
multiple parties.
Karnal you are dumbing this down to the point where democracy is a binary transition. But none of these transitions are. No country has ever flicked a switch from dictatorship to democracy, capitalism, liberalism etc. You are still arguing with a person in your head who does not exist anywhere else, countering an argument that no-one is making. You have missed the entire point of Acemoglu's argument, by replacing it with your own idiotic strawman. I can win the argument by referring to the CPC's internal democracy, because that is what my point is.
China is different from North Korea. It's transition to capitalism (and the relatively bloodless purges your refer to) is only possible because the internal democracy of the Chinese Communist Party made this extraordinary hypocrisy possible. And the granting of economic freedoms to the people is causing and will continue to cause many other changes, including an increase in wealth and greater demands for other types of rights and freedoms.
You have a choice now. You can continue the idiotic argument of countering that this is not happening unless it all happens overnight, or you can respond to what I actually posted. Third time lucky eh?
Or I can make this easy on myself and agree with you, eh?
Pretending China is democratic to win an argument about capitalism is pretty short-sighted, FD. Of course China has developed in the past 30 years - it's the fastest economic transition we've yet seen. What's interesting about this is that it's been done with no form of democracy whatsoever. A prosperous middle class has arisen in China with no free media, no political opposition and no consistent rule of law beyond the will of the party.
At least Britain and America had a free press during capitalism's "golden age". In China, even the internet's censored.
Now I know you want to hold onto your old uni essay argument until grim death, but the purpose of our discussions here are to learn new things. China has certainly applied capitalism, and done very nicely with it, but it has not democratised one iota since Deng Xiou Peng's reforms.
You may recall the anniversary of Tienanmen Square passing recently in silence, and no wonder. Just putting the words Tienenmen Square massacre in a Chinese search engine could see a visit from the cops.
So stop playing dumb. China is the very proof that democracy and capitalism do not go hand in hand. Learn from this and move on. The rest of us, once living in hope just like you, have.
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