Australian Politics Forum - Capitalism....so awesome

Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46595 Gender:	Re: Capitalism....so awesome Reply #30 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:38pm freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 1:01pm: China is embracing capitalism. China is just taking back what is theirs. As is Islam.
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 57172 Here Gender:	Re: Capitalism....so awesome Reply #31 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46595 Gender:	Re: Capitalism....so awesome Reply #32 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm: Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism. Communism would work splendidly in Australia - unlike Russia, where it failed. Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism. www.COM...munism .
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Mr Hammer

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #33 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

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Jasin

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #34 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:10pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

You're right Hammer. The slate would be wiped clean - everyone made equal and the Aboriginals would loose all their benefits over others. There would no longer be any page in paperwork where you tick the box [!] "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?"
This is where the Chairman (who will serve Australia) would replace the power of the Governor-General (who serves the UK) and the Prime Minister (who serves the USA).
But the office of the Chairman is purely Ceremonial with the main duty being the 'Welcoming of every New Australian Citizen' (well as much as possible).
The Political Power would be in the hands of the Common-Wealth of the Common-People entirely.

[edit]
You will find that the true Political Power will be in the hands of your local 'Council' and 'together' with every other Council in their Provincials, who in turn pass on the decisions made with every other Provincial (The USA 'state' system would be abolished).

...in other words - the local Council would in turn be held accountable by their 'locals', who would cast their votes on every issue made public.

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« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:15pm by Jasin »

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #35 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:11pm

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:10pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

You're right Hammer. The slate would be wiped clean - everyone made equal and the Aboriginals would loose all their benefits over others. There would no longer be any page in paperwork where you tick the box [!] "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?"
This is where the Chairman (who will serve Australia) would replace the power of the Governor-General (who serves the UK) and the Prime Minister (who serves the USA).
But the office of the Chairman is purely Ceremonial with the main duty being the 'Welcoming of every New Australian Citizen' (well as much as possible).
The Political Power would be in the hands of the Common-Wealth of the Common-People entirely.

What would happen to freedom of speech do you think?

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Jasin

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #36 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:15pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:10pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

You're right Hammer. The slate would be wiped clean - everyone made equal and the Aboriginals would loose all their benefits over others. There would no longer be any page in paperwork where you tick the box [!] "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?"
This is where the Chairman (who will serve Australia) would replace the power of the Governor-General (who serves the UK) and the Prime Minister (who serves the USA).
But the office of the Chairman is purely Ceremonial with the main duty being the 'Welcoming of every New Australian Citizen' (well as much as possible).
The Political Power would be in the hands of the Common-Wealth of the Common-People entirely.

What would happen to freedom of speech do you think?

Political speech will be even 'freer' here by the Common folk, more than the Industry (especially the positions of Gov-Gen, PM, etc).
I don't know about 'Media' speech though? Maybe they would be better off 'singing' for their supper?

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Dnarever

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #37 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 6:48pm

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Rubbish we have been moving further and further to the right for decades now.

In the 50's and 60's we had a good well balance combination of the best aspects of both systems however greed and power has pushed us further and further towards the capitalist model year after year. We have gone backwards.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #38 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:10pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:04pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 3:09pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:30pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:25pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 1:37pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:46pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:33pm:

The Chinese are pretty much a monoculture so they are socially strong. The west is going down because we are growing more socially divided by the day. If you work together you have a strong country no matter what. If you rip yourself apart then you will only get more trouble. Instead of bankers running our countries we need people who understand people. That's our problem.

FD's belief is that free markets will determine this, and there is some truth to it, it's just not absolute.

The West is hardly going down, dear. With the exception of China, the G7 are still the most advanced economies.

So far, all that's happening is that China is growing up. And it's doing so under a different political system.

The west is going down dear. It's definitely in decline. Our country is way more wealthy but many people are miserable.

Great. Do you want to cite your criteria and research?

So you are a boomer right. Would you say Australia is happier from what you remeber as a kid?

Aquascoot's capitalism argument isn't about happiness, it's about human living conditions and economic prosperity.

Happiness is a different thing altogether. I know of rich people who are miserable.

My own economic conditions have massively improved from those of my childhood. My real wages are probably double what my father's were in a similar profession. I can buy more, travel more, there's more choice at the supermarket, workplace health and safety is vastly improved, medication's better, the roads are better and planes are cheap to fly on. I recently flew to Europe in a day rather than spending 2 weeks at sea.

There's one criteria that's gone backwards - house prices. Apart from that, we live in a healthier, more prosperous society than we ever had. Unappiness?

I blame capitalism. It's funny how some things are good and bad at the same time, no?

Unlike FD, I'm allowed to hold conflicting, non-absolutist views.

You?

I'll tell you what has taken a dive. "Our pride" because of people like you making people feel guilty for everything. And our social cohesiveness and as a result we are heavily divided. Poor moral can bring down a army and it's affecting our country.

An army eh, son?

What the fck would you know about that?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #39 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:14pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:10pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

You're right Hammer. The slate would be wiped clean - everyone made equal and the Aboriginals would loose all their benefits over others. There would no longer be any page in paperwork where you tick the box [!] "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?"
This is where the Chairman (who will serve Australia) would replace the power of the Governor-General (who serves the UK) and the Prime Minister (who serves the USA).
But the office of the Chairman is purely Ceremonial with the main duty being the 'Welcoming of every New Australian Citizen' (well as much as possible).
The Political Power would be in the hands of the Common-Wealth of the Common-People entirely.

What would happen to freedom of speech do you think?

Freedom of speech requires the ability to speak.

You?

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Setanta

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #40 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:18pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:14pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:10pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

You're right Hammer. The slate would be wiped clean - everyone made equal and the Aboriginals would loose all their benefits over others. There would no longer be any page in paperwork where you tick the box [!] "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?"
This is where the Chairman (who will serve Australia) would replace the power of the Governor-General (who serves the UK) and the Prime Minister (who serves the USA).
But the office of the Chairman is purely Ceremonial with the main duty being the 'Welcoming of every New Australian Citizen' (well as much as possible).
The Political Power would be in the hands of the Common-Wealth of the Common-People entirely.

What would happen to freedom of speech do you think?

Freedom of speech requires the ability to speak.

You?

Speech requires the use of the mouth and tongue? How do you manage that with miam miam filling your mouth? Perhaps it can also be accomplished with fingers and keyboards? How do the deaf talk?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #41 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:59pm

Setanta wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:18pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 9:14pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:10pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 5:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Wouldn't that mean aborigines would be the same as everybody else? There's no identity politics in communism. It's pretty close to nationalism jasin.

You're right Hammer. The slate would be wiped clean - everyone made equal and the Aboriginals would loose all their benefits over others. There would no longer be any page in paperwork where you tick the box [!] "Are you Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?"
This is where the Chairman (who will serve Australia) would replace the power of the Governor-General (who serves the UK) and the Prime Minister (who serves the USA).
But the office of the Chairman is purely Ceremonial with the main duty being the 'Welcoming of every New Australian Citizen' (well as much as possible).
The Political Power would be in the hands of the Common-Wealth of the Common-People entirely.

What would happen to freedom of speech do you think?

Freedom of speech requires the ability to speak.

You?

Speech requires the use of the mouth and tongue? How do you manage that with miam miam filling your mouth? Perhaps it can also be accomplished with fingers and keyboards? How do the deaf talk?

Those too, Setanta. Primarily, it's the ability to think.

I won't ask if you agree. You most certainly do.

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Jasin

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #42 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 11:15pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 6:48pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

Capitalism marginally less flawed than communism.

Communism would work splendidly in Australia
- unlike Russia, where it failed.

Our 'working class' Egalitarianism is just the same turd with a different smell to Communism.

www.COM...munism

.

Rubbish we have been moving further and further to the right for decades now.

In the 50's and 60's we had a good well balance combination of the best aspects of both systems however greed and power has pushed us further and further towards the capitalist model year after year. We have gone backwards.

Oh, you're so right too.

One Nation is a good example of the backwards generalisation of Australian culture where the States were developing their own separate identities.
Once Victoria and NSW were very different, now they - like the other States are all the same boring 'One Nation'.
Ok if you are 'unifying' States like in the 'United' States - that rise to unison.
But Australia was mean't to go the other way.

...currently, we have 'back-tracked' like being caught in a Rip.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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freediver

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #43 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 3:05pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:57pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:28pm:

Quote:

The answer to both questions is China's top-down decision to implement capitalist practices WITHOUT democracy.

How does that, rather than the ability of party members to vote in changes without massive bloodshed, explain their ability to achieve "seismic purges" without massive bloodshed? Are you suggesting capitalism prevents violence?

Also, the CPC's internal democracy came prior to the transition to capitalism. The transition would not have been possible without it. So not only does your answer not make sense, it rests on a refusal to acknowledge reality.

Quote:

That is one of the central lessons of the early 21st century.

You never got round to explaining what the lesson is. Is the lesson nothing more than a bunch of stuff that happened? That we must hide the wood with lots of trees?

Quote:

Democracy is one thing, free trade is another. Technological innovation and improved human conditions is another thing too. The Chinese have been able to improve their living standards without democracy or a free economy, just as the Soviets once did under Stalin.

So you are literally using Russia to disprove the link between democracy, capitalism and wealth? Do you realise how stupid that looks?

Are you still denying that the Chinese communist party is internally democratic? And adding to that a denial that they are transitioning to capitalism?

When does reality ever creep in to your world view?

The CPC's transition to capitalism was preceded by the Cultural Revolution, dear.

If you're trying to win an argument by referring to the internal structure of the Chinese Communist Party, you've missed the entire point of democracy.

That's about voters choosing between multiple parties.

Karnal you are dumbing this down to the point where democracy is a binary transition. But none of these transitions are. No country has ever flicked a switch from dictatorship to democracy, capitalism, liberalism etc. You are still arguing with a person in your head who does not exist anywhere else, countering an argument that no-one is making. You have missed the entire point of Acemoglu's argument, by replacing it with your own idiotic strawman. I can win the argument by referring to the CPC's internal democracy, because that is what my point is.

China is different from North Korea. It's transition to capitalism (and the relatively bloodless purges your refer to) is only possible because the internal democracy of the Chinese Communist Party made this extraordinary hypocrisy possible. And the granting of economic freedoms to the people is causing and will continue to cause many other changes, including an increase in wealth and greater demands for other types of rights and freedoms.

You have a choice now. You can continue the idiotic argument of countering that this is not happening unless it all happens overnight, or you can respond to what I actually posted. Third time lucky eh?

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freediver

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Re: Capitalism....so awesome
Reply #44 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 3:07pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 3:09pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:30pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:25pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 1:37pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:46pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:33pm:

The Chinese are pretty much a monoculture so they are socially strong. The west is going down because we are growing more socially divided by the day. If you work together you have a strong country no matter what. If you rip yourself apart then you will only get more trouble. Instead of bankers running our countries we need people who understand people. That's our problem.

FD's belief is that free markets will determine this, and there is some truth to it, it's just not absolute.

The West is hardly going down, dear. With the exception of China, the G7 are still the most advanced economies.

So far, all that's happening is that China is growing up. And it's doing so under a different political system.

The west is going down dear. It's definitely in decline. Our country is way more wealthy but many people are miserable.

Great. Do you want to cite your criteria and research?

So you are a boomer right. Would you say Australia is happier from what you remeber as a kid?

Aquascoot's capitalism argument isn't about happiness, it's about human living conditions and economic prosperity.

Happiness is a different thing altogether. I know of rich people who are miserable.

My own economic conditions have massively improved from those of my childhood. My real wages are probably double what my father's were in a similar profession. I can buy more, travel more, there's more choice at the supermarket, workplace health and safety is vastly improved, medication's better, the roads are better and planes are cheap to fly on. I recently flew to Europe in a day rather than spending 2 weeks at sea.

There's one criteria that's gone backwards - house prices. Apart from that, we live in a healthier, more prosperous society than we ever had. Unappiness?

I blame capitalism. It's funny how some things are good and bad at the same time, no?

Unlike FD, I'm allowed to hold conflicting, non-absolutist views.

You?

How much would the house you live in now have cost your father?

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 4:34pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 10:21am:

Historically, capitalism has gone hand in hand with democracy, freedom and wealth.

Yes - but it is always a system that benefits the 'few' over the 'many'.

Crap. Just because we don't all have the same wage does not mean the poor have not benefited, unless your only measure of wealth is how jealous you are.

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