freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:51am:


That's just the standard Hegelian/Fukuyama End of History thesis. The Western-led Washington consensus, the one propagated in all those glorious BBC documentaries and good news development stories, the one sold on CNN and MSNBC, the big wide world being liberated and brought together by free trade. And from this, democracy would organically arise. Why?

Just because.

There is no historical force driving China towards democracy, no internal momentum, and no sign of change. The CCP is not internally democratic, as you put it. It's led completely from above. China is now undergoing a siezmic purge of its enemies within - and without, including Australian citizens. Hong Kong just turned authoritarian. It's resistors are losing.

Terrible news, I know, but the tides are turning as China gets heavier. No Chinese I know believe things will ever change, power-wise - and this from a generation that has seen nothing but change.

The conflict in Hong Kong is over its rule of law. Beijing wants to indict anyone it sees fit to detain. Hong Kong merely wants its justice system to determine that. In one stroke of a pen, China has ended centuries-old legal principles in Hong Kong, and there's no stopping it.

The world's woken up from the quaint Clintonesque view that free markets would bring freedom and democracy. They haven't, and they don't look likely to. Trump and Brexit are signs the West is going backwards - you yourself have latched on to the cause.

China has never promised or indicated that it was moving, inevitably, teleologically, towards a Western model. This is what we're now discovering. We've accepted China's economic growth, its military expansion, its move into our region, even its move into our own political system, and now what? China's not getting more democratic. We're waking up. The Fukuyama thesis was a con. China has fundamentally different social and political values to our own.

And in accordance, we too must change, just as we moved from Mother to Uncle. We had to. Australia has survived by moving from one economic hegemony to another. We're now facing a choice: go down with the US, or join China. All through our region, the smaller states, and even big ones like the Philippines, have made that decision. Why? Because China pays them to, just as the US paid to keep the Soviets out during the Cold War.

Democracy and capitalism have gone through stages, often in direct contradiction to each other. The French never had an empire or led the global economy, despite being the first to become a republic. After Britain, this was left to America, but the "golden age" of capitalism really existed during British colonialism. There was no democracy then. Only wealthy landowners got a vote.

It's possible that we're moving back to those times. The Trump/Brexit crowd are definitely on board. Fixed currencies, trade blocs, tariffs and competing - rather than economically integrated - states and economies.

I don't think this is inevitable. It's possible that a third way will arise, one that allows China to lead the global economy from the shadows, perhaps. But the reason for China's ongoing success, if it continues, will be the same as it was for Mother and Uncle: integrated global markets, free trade and movement.

Forget democracy. That's a different ballgame. A Chinese proverb says that they don't mind who holds the head of the cow as long as they get to milk it.

Pity this doesn't apply in China, eh?

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:33pm:


FD's belief is that free markets will determine this, and there is some truth to it, it's just not absolute.

The West is hardly going down, dear. With the exception of China, the G7 are still the most advanced economies.

So far, all that's happening is that China is growing up. And it's doing so under a different political system.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:47pm:


You'll always be free to return to New Zealand.

Many of us don't have that choice.

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 12:46pm:

The west is going down dear. It's definitely in decline. Our country is way more wealthy but many people are miserable.

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 1:37pm:


Great. Do you want to cite your criteria and research?

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:25pm:
So you are a boomer right. Would you say Australia is happier from what you remeber as a kid?

Mr Hammer wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 2:30pm:


Aquascoot's capitalism argument isn't about happiness, it's about human living conditions and economic prosperity.

Happiness is a different thing altogether. I know of rich people who are miserable.

My own economic conditions have massively improved from those of my childhood. My real wages are probably double what my father's were in a similar profession. I can buy more, travel more, there's more choice at the supermarket, workplace health and safety is vastly improved, medication's better, the roads are better and planes are cheap to fly on. I recently flew to Europe in a day rather than spending 2 weeks at sea.

There's one criteria that's gone backwards - house prices. Apart from that, we live in a healthier, more prosperous society than we ever had. Unappiness?

I blame capitalism. It's funny how some things are good and bad at the same time, no?

Unlike FD, I'm allowed to hold conflicting, non-absolutist views.

You?

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 10:21am:


Yes - but it is always a system that benefits the 'few' over the 'many'. A system that is known mostly as a Northern Hemisphere style now, in the modern world.
Where both Politically and Militarily - the 'few' (or even the 'individual' like Caesar) are empowered by it.

The only way 'people' (the many) get empowered is through Art or Religion (up there).

North America
Politics: Individual - Winner
            Mass - Loser
Art : Individual - Loser
        Mass - Winner

...its a simple equation and law of balance where everything is 'equal', in the end.


Australia could never adopt a UK/USA method of Capitalism or Democracy. As you can see currently - it is not working here. It fails to gain any foothold in the future of this country.

Australia will become a Privatised work of Art soon.