Australian Politics Forum - RIP Ayres Rock

cods

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #615 - Nov 16^th, 2019 at 9:58am

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 9:36am:

I just regard it as an opportunity grabbed by the coons to jam something up the whiteys nose.

"We have the power and we will use it" sort of attitude .

they will be charging to cross a river soon.......

so much for reconciliation Roll Eyes

...

they want separation only they want whitey to pay for it...

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cods

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #616 - Nov 16^th, 2019 at 10:02am

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 9:28am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 15^th, 2019 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2019 at 7:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 12:55pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 11:57am:

It is not private property. The Aborigines do not have private property rights over Ayers rock.

I'm not sure what semantic game you are attempting, but I think you are wrong.

The owners are leasing the land back to the commonwealth. How can they do this if it isn't their 'private property' to start with?

They cannot choose who to lease it to. Or who to sell it to. Nor do they have individual or complete collective control over how to manage it. It is a condition of their "ownership" that they do not own it in any meaningful sense. But they do get money from the government. That fixes everything, apparently.

I'm not sure what your point is FD. You seem to be flailing around in all different directions. First you frame this as an outrageous instance of racism against whites, as well as being mysogonistic - based on the absurd lie that the black owners are keeping the rock climb to themselves, while at the same time excluding all women (in reality, the black owners never climbed it in the first place, and want everyone - irrespective of colour or gender to not climb). Now you seem to be saying that this dictating of the terms of 'ownership' by the government is all terribly belittling to the Aborigines, and presumably racist against them.

You can't seem to work out what you are whinging about.

Who it is "against" is irrelevant to whether it is racist.

My point with the argument that they do not actually own it is that they do not actually own it. This is in response to the argument from just about everyone who supports the ban that it is "merely" an exercise in private property rights.

Quote:

based on the absurd lie that the black owners are keeping the rock climb to themselves

That is exactly what they are doing Gandalf.

maybe its only whitemans feet that do any damage to the rock and aboriginal mens feet are blessed to leave not a trace........as in secret mens business.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #617 - Nov 16^th, 2019 at 12:11pm

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 9:28am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 15^th, 2019 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2019 at 7:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 12:55pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 11:57am:

It is not private property. The Aborigines do not have private property rights over Ayers rock.

I'm not sure what semantic game you are attempting, but I think you are wrong.

The owners are leasing the land back to the commonwealth. How can they do this if it isn't their 'private property' to start with?

They cannot choose who to lease it to. Or who to sell it to. Nor do they have individual or complete collective control over how to manage it. It is a condition of their "ownership" that they do not own it in any meaningful sense. But they do get money from the government. That fixes everything, apparently.

I'm not sure what your point is FD. You seem to be flailing around in all different directions. First you frame this as an outrageous instance of racism against whites, as well as being mysogonistic - based on the absurd lie that the black owners are keeping the rock climb to themselves, while at the same time excluding all women (in reality, the black owners never climbed it in the first place, and want everyone - irrespective of colour or gender to not climb). Now you seem to be saying that this dictating of the terms of 'ownership' by the government is all terribly belittling to the Aborigines, and presumably racist against them.

You can't seem to work out what you are whinging about.

Who it is "against" is irrelevant to whether it is racist.

My point with the argument that they do not actually own it is that they do not actually own it. This is in response to the argument from just about everyone who supports the ban that it is "merely" an exercise in private property rights.

Quote:

based on the absurd lie that the black owners are keeping the rock climb to themselves

That is exactly what they are doing Gandalf.

Oh, there you are. Up for a question yet?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 80333 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: RIP Ayres Rock Reply #618 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 8:03pm Administrative closure by a Gang of Twelve appointed by government, and totally unrepresentative of the entire mass of interest groups... Take a chainsaw to their signs and Free The Rock!! No Indigenisation Without Representation!!
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92409 Gender:	Re: RIP Ayres Rock Reply #619 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes. We won't ask about you, dear.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #620 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:58pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm:

But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes.

We won't ask about you, dear.

Reresentative of how many Boongs exactly? And the tourists have no real choice, do they, unless they want to break out and say NO!

Now as for dismal handful of Boongs - what about the other 25 million people in Australia?

Are you there yet? You believe in Fascism? Rule of the majority by a tiny elite group for whatever reason and the absolute right of that group top dictate to many millions?

Good luck entering the 21st Century...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 46616 Gender:	Re: RIP Ayres Rock Reply #621 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 11:03pm There are 3 main cultures along with minor-multi-cultures. Aboriginal British American Colonialism (free Settlers). We've yet to see an Australian version of Muad'Dib to raise a true Australian umbrella culture for all to turn to. Until then. Get off their Rock!
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #622 - Nov 17^th, 2019 at 11:18pm

Jasin wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 11:03pm:

There are 3 main cultures along with minor-multi-cultures.
Aboriginal
British
American Colonialism (free Settlers).

We've yet to see an Australian version of Muad'Dib to raise a true Australian umbrella culture for all to turn to.

Until then. Get off their Rock! Grin

It's not their rock, meyte... it's closed off and all spirit now... tough on the local Boongs who think they own it now, but hell - that's how it works...

It not being their rock, they can't tell anyone to get off it - and besides - how did it come to be 'their rock'? By public agreement?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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polite_gandalf

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #623 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 10:58am

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 9:28am:

My point with the argument that they do not actually own it is that they do not actually own it. This is in response to the argument from just about everyone who supports the ban that it is "merely" an exercise in private property rights.

All you have demonstrated is that the rock is under a different kind of ownership than the more traditional kind. So there are conditions attached to it - you can 'own it' but you have to lease it back to the government. However the new 'owners' still have the right to ban climbing.

I don't see any problem with this. Its merely another case of the government offering 'ownership' of property by decree, with whatever conditions they want to stipulate. Same as they do with all kinds of property rights all the time. But for once it isn't decreeing property rights to white settlers invading the native's land, but rather decreeing it back to the original owners of the land.

I suspect its the reversal of this 'natural order' in the way property was divied up for most of the past 200+ years of settlement is whats getting up your nose. Its a pretty unsubtle and transparent racist objection. There is certainly no reasonable or legitimate basis to your objection - which would explain your resort to ridiculous lies about the black owners wanting to have the rock for themselves to climb and this being about some misogynistic banning of women.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #624 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 11:37am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:58pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm:

But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes.

We won't ask about you, dear.

Reresentative of how many Boongs exactly? And the tourists have no real choice, do they, unless they want to break out and say NO!

Why, the Boongs of Pitjantjatjara, dear - and all the others around the country who came out to celebrate.

Uluru is significant to ALL the Boongs. Giving it back to the spirit beings restores ancient law. No feminist Boongs have come out to suggest this is sexist, racist or sub-speciesist.

Tourists were allowed to climb the rock until last month. Out of respect, 80% refused to. The only people who want to be allowed to climb are feminists like FD, who'd like to climb the rock one day if they could be bothered driving 3 days through all that boring scenery.

In other words, they won't.

You?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #625 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 12:04pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 11:37am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:58pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm:

But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes.

We won't ask about you, dear.

Reresentative of how many Boongs exactly? And the tourists have no real choice, do they, unless they want to break out and say NO!

Why, the Boongs of Pitjantjatjara, dear - and all the others around the country who came out to celebrate.

Uluru is significant to ALL the Boongs. Giving it back to the spirit beings restores ancient law. No feminist Boongs have come out to suggest this is sexist, racist or sub-speciesist.

Tourists were allowed to climb the rock until last month. Out of respect, 80% refused to. The only people who want to be allowed to climb are feminists like FD, who'd like to climb the rock one day if they could be bothered driving 3 days through all that boring scenery.

In other words, they won't.

You?

What? 20 Boongs? Bloody dictators... Ayers Rock (etc) is significant to AUSTRALIANS, mate - Boongs have no special place there any more... or anywhere else... time to move with the times....

I'd say 'respect' had nothing to do with it - many infirm or older citizens simply wouldn't want to climb it.. twisting it into some myth of 'respect' to suit the agenda is not helping discussion fair and free and open. Many just go to look at it but the climb is for those seriously interested only - maybe 20% of the visitors...

Well - jolly gee gosh - the Boongs came and celebrated.. celebrated what? The illusion that somehow 'they' had taken back 'their ' rock? It was closed by an administrative decision from Whartey - to all climbers - purely for the reasons that it was being worn and tracked and it cost too much to rescue the few who fell ill or even died there - at a far lower rate than the national average...

It was closed by a government appointed body for purported reasons having zero to do with Aboriginals... just to save a few paltry dollars...

Tear Down the Signs! Free The Rock!!

...an old Australian climber lay dying (aaarg) , sighing... as he lay on his death bed, he started to sing... and the words went something like this....

Tie me Ayers Rock down, sport,
Tie me Ayers Rock down.
Climbers are wearin' it down sport,
So tie me Ayers Rock down.

Let me Abos climb loose, Blue,
Let me Abos climb loose...
They're of no spiritual (or insert term) use, Blue,
So let me Abos climb loose..

(everybody sing)

Tear the closure signs down, sport,
Tear the Closure signs down.
Tear the closure signs down, sport,
Tear the Closure signs down.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #626 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 1:54pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 12:04pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 11:37am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:58pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm:

But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes.

We won't ask about you, dear.

Reresentative of how many Boongs exactly? And the tourists have no real choice, do they, unless they want to break out and say NO!

Why, the Boongs of Pitjantjatjara, dear - and all the others around the country who came out to celebrate.

Uluru is significant to ALL the Boongs. Giving it back to the spirit beings restores ancient law. No feminist Boongs have come out to suggest this is sexist, racist or sub-speciesist.

Tourists were allowed to climb the rock until last month. Out of respect, 80% refused to. The only people who want to be allowed to climb are feminists like FD, who'd like to climb the rock one day if they could be bothered driving 3 days through all that boring scenery.

In other words, they won't.

You?

What? 20 Boongs? Bloody dictators... Ayers Rock (etc) is significant to AUSTRALIANS, mate - Boongs have no special place there any more... or anywhere else... time to move with the times....

I'd say 'respect' had nothing to do with it - many infirm or older citizens simply wouldn't want to climb it.. twisting it into some myth of 'respect' to suit the agenda is not helping discussion fair and free and open. Many just go to look at it but the climb is for those seriously interested only - maybe 20% of the visitors...

Well - jolly gee gosh - the Boongs came and celebrated.. celebrated what? The illusion that somehow 'they' had taken back 'their ' rock? It was closed by an administrative decision from Whartey - to all climbers - purely for the reasons that it was being worn and tracked and it cost too much to rescue the few who fell ill or even died there - at a far lower rate than the national average...

It was closed by a government appointed body for purported reasons having zero to do with Aboriginals... just to save a few paltry dollars...

Tear Down the Signs! Free The Rock!!

...an old Australian climber lay dying (aaarg) , sighing... as he lay on his death bed, he started to sing... and the words went something like this....

Tie me Ayers Rock down, sport,
Tie me Ayers Rock down.
Climbers are wearin' it down sport,
So tie me Ayers Rock down.

Let me Abos climb loose, Blue,
Let me Abos climb loose...
They're of no spiritual (or insert term) use, Blue,
So let me Abos climb loose..

(everybody sing)

Tear the closure signs down, sport,
Tear the Closure signs down.
Tear the closure signs down, sport,
Tear the Closure signs down.

Sorry, dear, I should have been more clear.

Have YOU ever climbed the rock?

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freediver

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #627 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 3:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 10:58am:

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2019 at 9:28am:

My point with the argument that they do not actually own it is that they do not actually own it. This is in response to the argument from just about everyone who supports the ban that it is "merely" an exercise in private property rights.

All you have demonstrated is that the rock is under a different kind of ownership than the more traditional kind. So there are conditions attached to it - you can 'own it' but you have to lease it back to the government. However the new 'owners' still have the right to ban climbing.

I don't see any problem with this. Its merely another case of the government offering 'ownership' of property by decree, with whatever conditions they want to stipulate. Same as they do with all kinds of property rights all the time. But for once it isn't decreeing property rights to white settlers invading the native's land, but rather decreeing it back to the original owners of the land.

I suspect its the reversal of this 'natural order' in the way property was divied up for most of the past 200+ years of settlement is whats getting up your nose. Its a pretty unsubtle and transparent racist objection.

This reminds me of Abu's argument that Islam is entirely consistent with democracy. Just a "different type" of democracy, in which only muslims can vote, only Muslims can run for office, and Shariah law is the only platform you can run on.

If you cannot sell it, and you cannot even sell your share of it, and the government still has control over it, and you have no direct personal influence over what happens with it, then you do not own it. The analogy with the exercise of private property rights is entirely misleading, and just another desperate attempt to sweep government sponsored racism, sexism, communism etc under the carpet.

Quote:

There is certainly no reasonable or legitimate basis to your objection - which would explain your resort to ridiculous lies about the black owners wanting to have the rock for themselves to climb and this being about some misogynistic banning of women.

You mean other than the fact that it is racist and sexist? Why is that not a legitimate basis?

What makes these people "owners" of Ayers Rock, other than race?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #628 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 11:56pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 1:54pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 12:04pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 11:37am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:58pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm:

But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes.

We won't ask about you, dear.

Reresentative of how many Boongs exactly? And the tourists have no real choice, do they, unless they want to break out and say NO!

Why, the Boongs of Pitjantjatjara, dear - and all the others around the country who came out to celebrate.

Uluru is significant to ALL the Boongs. Giving it back to the spirit beings restores ancient law. No feminist Boongs have come out to suggest this is sexist, racist or sub-speciesist.

Tourists were allowed to climb the rock until last month. Out of respect, 80% refused to. The only people who want to be allowed to climb are feminists like FD, who'd like to climb the rock one day if they could be bothered driving 3 days through all that boring scenery.

In other words, they won't.

You?

What? 20 Boongs? Bloody dictators... Ayers Rock (etc) is significant to AUSTRALIANS, mate - Boongs have no special place there any more... or anywhere else... time to move with the times....

I'd say 'respect' had nothing to do with it - many infirm or older citizens simply wouldn't want to climb it.. twisting it into some myth of 'respect' to suit the agenda is not helping discussion fair and free and open. Many just go to look at it but the climb is for those seriously interested only - maybe 20% of the visitors...

Well - jolly gee gosh - the Boongs came and celebrated.. celebrated what? The illusion that somehow 'they' had taken back 'their ' rock? It was closed by an administrative decision from Whartey - to all climbers - purely for the reasons that it was being worn and tracked and it cost too much to rescue the few who fell ill or even died there - at a far lower rate than the national average...

It was closed by a government appointed body for purported reasons having zero to do with Aboriginals... just to save a few paltry dollars...

Tear Down the Signs! Free The Rock!!

...an old Australian climber lay dying (aaarg) , sighing... as he lay on his death bed, he started to sing... and the words went something like this....

Tie me Ayers Rock down, sport,
Tie me Ayers Rock down.
Climbers are wearin' it down sport,
So tie me Ayers Rock down.

Let me Abos climb loose, Blue,
Let me Abos climb loose...
They're of no spiritual (or insert term) use, Blue,
So let me Abos climb loose..

(everybody sing)

Tear the closure signs down, sport,
Tear the Closure signs down.
Tear the closure signs down, sport,
Tear the Closure signs down.

Sorry, dear, I should have been more clear.

Have YOU ever climbed the rock?

Not the point.... the point is that if I didn't - it was not for some BS 'respect' nonsense - it was because of other reasons of my own...

Here's how it works:-

Reality - 80% of visitors to Ayers Rock choose not to climb it for a wide variety of reasons - age, infirmity, lack of interest, too hard, etc...

Propagandaspeak - 80% of visitors to Ayers Rock choose not to climb it out of respect for Aboriginal sensitivities...

Catch my drift yet? Don't piss down my back and tell me it's warm rain...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads

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Re: RIP Ayres Rock
Reply #629 - Nov 19^th, 2019 at 6:42am

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 18^th, 2019 at 11:37am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:58pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Nov 17^th, 2019 at 10:27pm:

But totally representative of the Boongs, not to mention the tourists, 80% of whom have respected their wishes.

We won't ask about you, dear.

Reresentative of how many Boongs exactly? And the tourists have no real choice, do they, unless they want to break out and say NO!

Why, the Boongs of Pitjantjatjara, dear - and all the others around the country who came out to celebrate.

Uluru is significant to ALL the Boongs. Giving it back to the spirit beings restores ancient law. No feminist Boongs have come out to suggest this is sexist, racist or sub-speciesist.

Tourists were allowed to climb the rock until last month. Out of respect, 80% refused to. The only people who want to be allowed to climb are feminists like FD, who'd like to climb the rock one day if they could be bothered driving 3 days through all that boring scenery.

In other words, they won't.

You?

What rot.... how could that be?

Up until 200 yrs ago only those living in the vicinity would have known of it's existence.

That's strrrike 3 ........ ya out.

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