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SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's (Read 818 times)
Jasin
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SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Sep 22nd, 2019 at 9:36pm
 
60 minutes just did a major special on Australia's SAS role in Afghanistan.

Basically a lot of 'Traitors' to the SAS have gone running to the Media (who is Anti Military/Political anyway) and cried that the Australian SAS are nothing but Murderers of Civilians who just try to boost their 'Kill Numbers' ego.

So we have our own version of the SS Troops of Nazism.
Apparently our big time tall War Hero of many Medals actually thought he was in the movie '300' (Spartans) and kicked a civilian down a hill then shot him. Seems many in the SAS think they are 'Spartans' - the Warrior Code.
Maybe they show the movie on Training Nights?  Cheesy

Besides our Police pointing their guns at each other.
Looks like the Military is too.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #1 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 10:46pm
 
The reaction of Dusty Miller is something I've been struggling to put into words for many years..

The best I can come up with is that while there is a deep personal confidence and pride in having done a job and done things that few can even imagine, there remains, at the heart of every good man, a lasting remorse, regret and even guilt over the necessity of having to do those things (and that is outside of these criminal acts alleged - those are in a different category).

You see that in the interview with Dusty Miller, and also in the interviews with Dick Winter of Band of Brothers and quite a few others.....

Very.. VERY ... few tip so far over the edge that they commit the kind of crimes pointed out - as the interviews with other members will show clearly - they want no part of it and feel it is a disgrace - not only on The Regiment, but on the Australian Army as well... and their view that it goes to the top is a fair one....

The killing of prisoners has always been a part of war, often an under-mentioned and even unspoken one, and the US Army reached its peak with the German massacres in the Ardennes and then the NVA .... and responded largely in kind (as did the British and Canadian armies) ... the difference between 'us' and 'them' is that we view such things as crimes - they did and do not.

Anyway - comparing the SAS and Commandoes and Infantry committed to that war, to the SS etc - ifs fatuous... these actions are not part of policy.... though there can be a tendency to just cover it over if and when it happens, for many reasons, not least of which is the age-old thing of 'obey first - protest later'... which is not really workable, and then there is the SOP of - say - removing hands for clear identification of a fallen Muj when taking the body is too difficult and photos may not be workable ........

Such decisions are easy to criticise from a desk... vision after the event, especially if it becomes public - is always 20/20, but the fact remains it is still going to happen at times, for operational reasons.

On the one hand, I am warming to young Hastie - on the other, he should have said - the blame stops with me over the hand removing incident... which is not as uncommon as you may imagine...  Cool

P.S. I didn't hear any names mentioned... it's sub judice at the moment... in the hands of the AFP...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Bobby.
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #2 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:01pm
 
I switched it off half way through.

When you unleash the dogs of war then evil takes over.
Normal men become murderers.

It has always happened and it will never stop.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #3 - Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:30pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:01pm:
I switched it off half way through.

When you unleash the dogs of war then evil takes over.
Normal men become murderers.

It has always happened and it will never stop.


I nearly turned it off but felt I had to go to the end... for fairness' sake.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Bobby.
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #4 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 6:21am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:30pm:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:01pm:
I switched it off half way through.

When you unleash the dogs of war then evil takes over.
Normal men become murderers.

It has always happened and it will never stop.


I nearly turned it off but felt I had to go to the end... for fairness' sake.



War is evil - it's that simple.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #5 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 9:22am
 
There is more - that guilt at not doing something positive at the time - moral judgements become blurred, the battlefield has its own morality, and that is part of the guilt carried for life by some ....

As I said - I've been grappling with the concept for many years now... never quite catch hold of it... just when you think you've got it by the balls, it slips away ...but I'm sure I know how Dusty Miller feels - why did I do nothing?  Why did I let it happen?  Did I escape my moral obligation to do right by saying:- 'This can't be real'... he's not really going to kill this guy!", all the while knowing that he is.... and now... am I right or wrong to implicate someone else after the event?

What happened to the inner person that I know myself to be.. that I allow such things and then find justifications for it?

No wonder people crack up... the army doesn't employ psychopaths...... they choose intelligent, thinking people and then wonder why they have psych issues ...

You're right Bobby - war is no place for human beings.

P.S.  Oliver Stone tried to approach this dichotomy in the final speech in Platoon.. the 'son of two fathers'  bit ...
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« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2019 at 9:58am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Brian Ross
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #6 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 1:55pm
 
The problem I believe is that the SASR nowadays is very different from the SASR of my youth.  I served with several ex-SASR members.  They were top blokes and while as hard as nails, were human as well.  The SASR of today has come to believe it's own legend, it's own myths and holds itself as being superior to all others.

In part they are but in part they aren't.  They are ordinary men who have been given the opportunity to do extraordinary things.  They don't need special weapons for the most part.  They don't need super-special training for the most part.  Their role was originally, in the Australian Army, that of long range reconnaissance and they were very good at that.  They have now become super-soldiers

Field Marshal Wavell did not like specialist forces, private armies.  He felt that normal infantry units were capable of doing the same job, if properly trained and led.  He allowed the creation of the SAS in the Western Desert, primarily to shut Stirling and his backers up.  When you read up the history of such units, they invariably spend an awful of time training and only occasionally performing as advertised on the battlefield.  I'm presently reading Bob Yunnies', "Fighting with Popski's Private Army."   Just as the original "Popski's Private Army" book showed, this specialist bunch didn't actually do much fighting.  They spent most of their time haring 'round and playing at soldiers.  In fact they held the record for the slowest crossing of the Sahara during the fighting in the Western Desert.  In Italy they spent most of their time trying to get behind the German lines and failing dismally.  They were like a bunch of kids playing at soldiers.

Is war meant to be an adventure or is it meant to be "politics by other means", as Clausewitz put it?  Are we meant to be funding a bunch of yahoos having fun or are they meant to be trying to achieve something of value to the nation as a whole?  War is both sometimes.   Playing soldier can be loads of fun.  War though is meant to be much more serious.  I believe that the SASR has gone too far to the fun side for the participants who hold themselves above the Rules (and yes, there are rules in wartime and they are reinforced by Military Law).   I don't think that means they, like the Canadian  Airborne Regiment that they need to be disbanded but they need to come down off their high horses.   Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #7 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 4:46pm
 
Aussie prediction.....Ben Roberts-Smith is going to be charged and will be convicted, despite his very powerful, influential Father (who is a QC in the Army) and Employer, Stokes.

I wonder who else goes down with him.  Hastie?
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Jasin
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #8 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 11:11am
 
The early role of the 'soldier' was as a 'warrior' - the Protector of the Tribe and its Lands (livelihood). He would hunt the game and now in this day and age - he/she must Protect it also. We have now 'conquered' the Animal Kingdom, but now we have to not let it get destroyed.

The Warrior/Soldier had for the few thousand years plus being forced to serve the whims of religion and politics too.
(N. Hemisphere: Emperors, Generals. S.Hemisphere: Army, Soldiers, Warriors)

The Military and Conservation are the 'Marriage'.
Like Art and Aviation, Religion and Fashion (Spirituality),
like Farming & Maths (money grows on trees).
Music and Science.
Cooking and Medicine.
etc, etc

Military and Conservation: Green as the Serpent that guides them.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #9 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 12:10pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:30pm:
Bobby. wrote on Sep 22nd, 2019 at 11:01pm:
I switched it off half way through.

When you unleash the dogs of war then evil takes over.
Normal men become murderers.

It has always happened and it will never stop.


I nearly turned it off but felt I had to go to the end... for fairness' sake.


You're part of the problem.

If nobody watched bullshit shows like 60 Minutes, they wouldn't make them anymore.

It's just sensationalist bullshit used to sell soap powder.

Turn it off!
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Jasin
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Re: SAS = SS-Troops, Nazi's
Reply #10 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 12:27pm
 
Here starts the Corruption of Evil in the Australian Military.
Where 'power' murders like a gutless sniper, hidden from its victim.

Even if he is found entirely guilty. Because the Australian Military would be found Guilty by Association. It will all be 'quietly dismissed' to the forgotten pile with all the atrocities committed against Aboriginals in the past.
Can't have them abos primatively eating Yams and Bogon Moths when they should be eating McDonalds and over-priced hipster dishes of minimalist displays.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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