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Got Milk? (Read 5961 times)
freediver
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #90 - Sep 15th, 2019 at 10:39am
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 15th, 2019 at 10:35am:
It seems some think they are entitled to make a profit by any means possible.... especially when it's at someone elses expense.

The Royal Commission into Banking was a good example ....

The GFC was another.

Your response to what should be a fair go .. is telling.


Are you equating entitlement with a fair go?
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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #91 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:45am
 
It's a chain of production & supply

are you saying that one end of the chain is entitled to make more than the other by predatory pricing & controlling/reducing the price it pays the supplier?

With all factors/variables it should be assumed that the farmer needs to make something above his cost of production.
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #92 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:11am
 
"Predatory pricing" is an emotive term with no real meaning. I am against anti-competitive behaviour, but I suspect that is not what you are on about.

There is no need to assume the farmer 'needs' to get more than the cost of production. You can safely assume that he is.
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #93 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:57am
 
I think the price paid to producers needs to be looked at because supermarkets use milk as a loss leader and producers get screwed to selling for a paper thin margin.

I also suspect the large producers may be operating at a loss to drive out competition.

The price of all other rural products rise and fall with demand and production costs yet milk stays the same, that's a bit sus to me.

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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #94 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 10:37am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:11am:
"Predatory pricing" is an emotive term with no real meaning. I am against anti-competitive behaviour, but I suspect that is not what you are on about.

There is no need to assume the farmer 'needs' to get more than the cost of production. You can safely assume that he is.


What? .... similar to AGW/Climate Change science?

As for safely assuming farmers are making more than cost of production .... why is it so many have left & are on the brink of leaving the industry?

No one leaves if they are making money.
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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #95 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 10:38am
 
Gordon wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:57am:
I think the price paid to producers needs to be looked at because supermarkets use milk as a loss leader and producers get screwed to selling for a paper thin margin.

I also suspect the large producers may be operating at a loss to drive out competition.

The price of all other rural products rise and fall with demand and production costs yet milk stays the same, that's a bit sus to me.



Yes
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freediver
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #96 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:52pm
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:11am:
"Predatory pricing" is an emotive term with no real meaning. I am against anti-competitive behaviour, but I suspect that is not what you are on about.

There is no need to assume the farmer 'needs' to get more than the cost of production. You can safely assume that he is.


What? .... similar to AGW/Climate Change science?

As for safely assuming farmers are making more than cost of production .... why is it so many have left & are on the brink of leaving the industry?

No one leaves if they are making money.


The ones who left are the ones who did not think they were making enough money. They are no longer farmers. If they are still farmers, it is safe to assume they are making not just a profit, but enough to justify all the personal effort. It's a safe assumption because farmers are capable of acting in their own self interest.

Quote:
I think the price paid to producers needs to be looked at because supermarkets use milk as a loss leader and producers get screwed to selling for a paper thin margin.


Totally irrelevant. If supermarkets sell it as a loss leader, they are the ones forgoing profit on milk. If they failed to pay the farmers enough, they would have no milk to sell. Milk appears to have one of the narrowest profit margins (for the retailer) of any product on the shelf. They could double the price, but they would not have to pay the farmers a cent more. They would probably pay farmers less, because less milk would sell so they would be an oversupply at wholesale levels. Those loss leaders are actually helping farmers.
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #97 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:57pm
 
It's the big Mass Production Farmers of big properties that are going under, just like Mass Production Manufacturing has.

It's the small, tight, compact, efficient kit Farmers who are making a higher threshold of comparative profit and 'together' - they probably make more for the country than the big Mass Productions.

The Good thing about getting rid of 'Mass Production' systems in Australia, is that it gets rid of the 'Cheap Asian/Indian' Labour that tends to cling to it like turds to trout paper.

Quality in Australia wins.
Quantity in Australia loses.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #98 - Sep 17th, 2019 at 7:15am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:52pm:
Gnads wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:11am:
"Predatory pricing" is an emotive term with no real meaning. I am against anti-competitive behaviour, but I suspect that is not what you are on about.

There is no need to assume the farmer 'needs' to get more than the cost of production. You can safely assume that he is.


What? .... similar to AGW/Climate Change science?

As for safely assuming farmers are making more than cost of production .... why is it so many have left & are on the brink of leaving the industry?

No one leaves if they are making money.


The ones who left are the ones who did not think they were making enough money. They are no longer farmers. If they are still farmers, it is safe to assume they are making not just a profit, but enough to justify all the personal effort. It's a safe assumption because farmers are capable of acting in their own self interest.

Quote:
I think the price paid to producers needs to be looked at because supermarkets use milk as a loss leader and producers get screwed to selling for a paper thin margin.


Totally irrelevant. If supermarkets sell it as a loss leader, they are the ones forgoing profit on milk. If they failed to pay the farmers enough, they would have no milk to sell. Milk appears to have one of the narrowest profit margins (for the retailer) of any product on the shelf. They could double the price, but they would not have to pay the farmers a cent more. They would probably pay farmers less, because less milk would sell so they would be an oversupply at wholesale levels. Those loss leaders are actually helping farmers.


That's assumption on your part.

Cows have to be milked or their husbandry suffers... a farmer cannot withhold his milk if he doesn't the price he wants .... it's perishable & he has limited storage.

Milk is a high volume product & supermarkets are using it as an advertising ploy for "lower" prices.

They sell high volumes of a lower quality product with a smaller profit margin.............

and that is kicked down stairs to the supplier/processor & then the farmers.

They more than make up for the low price by increasing the costs over all the other products.

You still haven't explained why Coles, Woolies & Aldi have not passed on the 10 cents per litre increase on their $1 milk to the farmers as they advertised & promised.

Drinking silver con?  Roll Eyes
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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #99 - Sep 17th, 2019 at 7:17am
 
Jasin wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:57pm:
It's the big Mass Production Farmers of big properties that are going under, just like Mass Production Manufacturing has.

It's the small, tight, compact, efficient kit Farmers who are making a higher threshold of comparative profit and 'together' - they probably make more for the country than the big Mass Productions.

The Good thing about getting rid of 'Mass Production' systems in Australia, is that it gets rid of the 'Cheap Asian/Indian' Labour that tends to cling to it like turds to trout paper.

Quality in Australia wins.
Quantity in Australia loses.


The biggest dairy farms in Australia & NZ are owned by the Chinese.

So come again?
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freediver
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #100 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 8:20am
 
Gnads wrote on Sep 17th, 2019 at 7:15am:
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:52pm:
Gnads wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:11am:
"Predatory pricing" is an emotive term with no real meaning. I am against anti-competitive behaviour, but I suspect that is not what you are on about.

There is no need to assume the farmer 'needs' to get more than the cost of production. You can safely assume that he is.


What? .... similar to AGW/Climate Change science?

As for safely assuming farmers are making more than cost of production .... why is it so many have left & are on the brink of leaving the industry?

No one leaves if they are making money.


The ones who left are the ones who did not think they were making enough money. They are no longer farmers. If they are still farmers, it is safe to assume they are making not just a profit, but enough to justify all the personal effort. It's a safe assumption because farmers are capable of acting in their own self interest.

Quote:
I think the price paid to producers needs to be looked at because supermarkets use milk as a loss leader and producers get screwed to selling for a paper thin margin.


Totally irrelevant. If supermarkets sell it as a loss leader, they are the ones forgoing profit on milk. If they failed to pay the farmers enough, they would have no milk to sell. Milk appears to have one of the narrowest profit margins (for the retailer) of any product on the shelf. They could double the price, but they would not have to pay the farmers a cent more. They would probably pay farmers less, because less milk would sell so they would be an oversupply at wholesale levels. Those loss leaders are actually helping farmers.


That's assumption on your part.

Cows have to be milked or their husbandry suffers... a farmer cannot withhold his milk if he doesn't the price he wants .... it's perishable & he has limited storage.



Ah. So all that milk on the shelves is not a result of farmers running a business, but only the by-product of a farmer's obligation to husband their cows in the name of animal welfare?

Quote:
Milk is a high volume product & supermarkets are using it as an advertising ploy for "lower" prices.

They sell high volumes of a lower quality product with a smaller profit margin.............

and that is kicked down stairs to the supplier/processor & then the farmers.


You have it backwards. This is why there needs to be more education of economics in this country. Lower retail prices for milk means more milk is consumed, which means more is farmed, which requires farmers to be paid more - both in total and per unit. The supermarkets are doing farmers and consumers a favour here, and the money comes out of their pockets, not the farmers.
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John Smith
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #101 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:10am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 21st, 2019 at 8:20am:
Lower retail prices for milk means more milk is consumed, which means more is farmed, which requires farmers to be paid more - both in total and per unit.



not when the market is controlled by a virtual duopoly
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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #102 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:15am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 21st, 2019 at 8:20am:
Gnads wrote on Sep 17th, 2019 at 7:15am:
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 7:52pm:
Gnads wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 10:37am:
freediver wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 8:11am:
"Predatory pricing" is an emotive term with no real meaning. I am against anti-competitive behaviour, but I suspect that is not what you are on about.

There is no need to assume the farmer 'needs' to get more than the cost of production. You can safely assume that he is.


What? .... similar to AGW/Climate Change science?

As for safely assuming farmers are making more than cost of production .... why is it so many have left & are on the brink of leaving the industry?

No one leaves if they are making money.


The ones who left are the ones who did not think they were making enough money. They are no longer farmers. If they are still farmers, it is safe to assume they are making not just a profit, but enough to justify all the personal effort. It's a safe assumption because farmers are capable of acting in their own self interest.

Quote:
I think the price paid to producers needs to be looked at because supermarkets use milk as a loss leader and producers get screwed to selling for a paper thin margin.


Totally irrelevant. If supermarkets sell it as a loss leader, they are the ones forgoing profit on milk. If they failed to pay the farmers enough, they would have no milk to sell. Milk appears to have one of the narrowest profit margins (for the retailer) of any product on the shelf. They could double the price, but they would not have to pay the farmers a cent more. They would probably pay farmers less, because less milk would sell so they would be an oversupply at wholesale levels. Those loss leaders are actually helping farmers.


That's assumption on your part.

Cows have to be milked or their husbandry suffers... a farmer cannot withhold his milk if he doesn't the price he wants .... it's perishable & he has limited storage.



Ah. So all that milk on the shelves is not a result of farmers running a business, but only the by-product of a farmer's obligation to husband their cows in the name of animal welfare?

Quote:
Milk is a high volume product & supermarkets are using it as an advertising ploy for "lower" prices.

They sell high volumes of a lower quality product with a smaller profit margin.............

and that is kicked down stairs to the supplier/processor & then the farmers.


You have it backwards. This is why there needs to be more education of economics in this country. Lower retail prices for milk means more milk is consumed, which means more is farmed, which requires farmers to be paid more - both in total and per unit. The supermarkets are doing farmers and consumers a favour here, and the money comes out of their pockets, not the farmers.


It's inferior quality milk that is diluted to make it go further.

Supermarkets are not doing dairy farmers any favours with cheap milk & dictating prices.

And more & more dairy farmers are quitting the industry.

People don't quit if it's profitable business.

Quote:
Dairy producers are rushing to exit the industry, as poor milk prices and high production costs contribute to the decline.

Dairy Food Safety Victoria figures show there has been a net loss of about 375 dairy farms since June 30 last year.

Compared to some 22,000 dairy farms spread throughout country Australia in the 1980s, there are now fewer than 6000 remaining today.

With an industry in crisis, dairy farmers are warning that dairy production in Australia will cease to exist if something isn’t done immediately.


https://www.news.com.au/national/dairy-producers-exiting-the-industry-before-its...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-26/dairy-farmers-mass-exodus-from-the-indust...

https://www.nswfarmers.org.au/NSWFA/Posts/The_Farmer/Business/Dairy_farmers_in_d...

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« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:47am by Gnads »  

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freediver
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #103 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:49am
 
Quote:
Supermarkets are not doing dairy farmers any favours with cheap milk & dictating prices.


No-one is dictating prices. Prices are established by mutual agreement.

Do you disagree with anything I actually said?

You have it backwards. This is why there needs to be more education of economics in this country. Lower retail prices for milk means more milk is consumed, which means more is farmed, which requires farmers to be paid more - both in total and per unit. The supermarkets are doing farmers and consumers a favour here, and the money comes out of their pockets, not the farmers.

Quote:
not when the market is controlled by a virtual duopoly


Is "virtual duopoly" your euphemism for "not an actual duopoly"?
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Gnads
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Re: Got Milk?
Reply #104 - Sep 21st, 2019 at 11:55am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 21st, 2019 at 9:49am:
Quote:
Supermarkets are not doing dairy farmers any favours with cheap milk & dictating prices.


No-one is dictating prices. Prices are established by mutual agreement.

Do you disagree with anything I actually said?

You have it backwards. This is why there needs to be more education of economics in this country. Lower retail prices for milk means more milk is consumed, which means more is farmed, which requires farmers to be paid more - both in total and per unit. The supermarkets are doing farmers and consumers a favour here, and the money comes out of their pockets, not the farmers.

Quote:
not when the market is controlled by a virtual duopoly


Is "virtual duopoly" your euphemism for "not an actual duopoly"?


Obviously you don't read.  Roll Eyes

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